LGBTQ acceptance dropping among Millennials

[Puppet]

This is unfortunate. But just because someone sees something a certain way, it doesn't mean that it's true.

Agreed. But it does, unfortunately, tear down the real people fighting for equality. And the same could, potentially, be said for the LGBT community (to bring us back on topic); that the wrong people speak up and get confused for the real champions of the cause.

For instance what @Ethan Reigns is talking about? Being "forced" to use the proper pronouns, etc. Sorry, I don't have that much experience with it and didn't really know how to word it.

I'm of a mixed mind here. While I definitely respect the rights to be called what you want/are (I would not like being referred to as anything other than female) they also get a little too upset (obviously not all of them) if you don't immediately remember to use the right pronoun. There was all this drama in another fandom and, to this day, one of the actors is hated simply because of a misunderstanding regarding pronouns at a convention photo op.

 

[TriBel]

There are two genders. There are well-known genetic defects that make some people different.

"On nearly every continent, and for all of recorded history, thriving cultures have recognized, revered, and integrated more than two genders. Terms such as “transgender” and “gay” are strictly new constructs that assume three things: that there are only two sexes (male/female), as many as two sexualities (gay/straight), and only two genders (man/woman)...Most Western societies have no direct correlation for this tradition, nor for the many other communities without strict either/or conceptions of sex, sexuality, and gender. Worldwide, the sheer variety of gender expression is almost limitless." There's a map. Interactive Map: Gender-Diverse Cultures

If I'm honest, I knew of some of these (the Indian examples) but not all. I've no way of knowing how accurate it is. My understanding is that sex is binary; gender is a spectrum. Sex is biological; gender is cultural.

But could you not then say, for argument sake, that the annoying parts of LGBTism is the instance that everyone use the same vernacular? It's still trying to force your ideals and beliefs onto another and make them behave in a manner you find acceptable.

But could you not then say, for argument sake, that the annoying parts of Heteronormativity is the instance [insistence?] that everyone use the same vernacular? It's still trying to force your ideals and beliefs onto another and make them behave in a manner you find acceptable.

Surely it works both ways?

 

[Name the Stars]

The reference to the Ontario Human Rights Commission sounds innocent enough until you realize that the cost of appearing at the commission would be about $250,000 and this commission does not operate by rule of law. Guilt is assumed before the trial starts and evidence doesn't matter. Business owners dread having a minority person walk in the door for a job because if this person does not get the job, the only defence is to hire or already have on staff a different person of the same minority. And yes, refusal to use the preferred pronouns and possessives is still actionable but not like a civil case - the Human Rights Commission sets whatever fines and other penalties it sees fit at its own discretion with no appeal process.

Actually, a court is very unlikely to find someone guilty of hate speech, and most minority people will not file a civic case every time they don't get hired. At least not logical people. No court or commission will take a few instances of pronoun misuse seriously, they have better things to do.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

But could you not then say, for argument sake, that the annoying parts of Heteronormativity is the instance [insistence?] that everyone use the same vernacular? It's still trying to force your ideals and beliefs onto another and make them behave in a manner you find acceptable.

Surely it works both ways?

But I don't believe that, for instance, non-binaries are not being forced to conform to a gender pronouns, so no, I don't think it does. At least not anymore. And I don't think it was as much as being forced to adhere to one gender in the past as much as it was expected to do so.

 

[Name the Stars]

"On nearly every continent, and for all of recorded history, thriving cultures have recognized, revered, and integrated more than two genders. Terms such as “transgender” and “gay” are strictly new constructs that assume three things: that there are only two sexes (male/female), as many as two sexualities (gay/straight), and only two genders (man/woman)...Most Western societies have no direct correlation for this tradition, nor for the many other communities without strict either/or conceptions of sex, sexuality, and gender. Worldwide, the sheer variety of gender expression is almost limitless." There's a map. Interactive Map: Gender-Diverse Cultures

If I'm honest, I knew of some of these (the Indian examples) but not all. I've no way of knowing how accurate it is. My understanding is that sex is binary; gender is a spectrum. Sex is biological; gender is cultural.


But could you not then say, for argument sake, that the annoying parts of Heteronormativity is the instance [insistence?] that everyone use the same vernacular? It's still trying to force your ideals and beliefs onto another and make them behave in a manner you find acceptable.

Surely it works both ways?

Agreed! Historically there is evidence of gender being on a spectrum. Nothing is as simple as black and white. If it was that easy, there would be no need to debate.

 

[Name the Stars]

But I don't believe that, for instance, non-binaries are not being forced to conform to a gender pronouns, so no, I don't think it does. At least not anymore.

Not in some countries. But others.... Well, let's just say that that's not completely true. And at certain institutions, they are forced to conform to gender pronouns.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

And at certain institutions, they are forced to conform to gender pronouns.

Where?

 

[TriBel]

But I don't believe that, for instance, non-binaries are not being forced to conform to a gender pronouns, so no, I don't think it does. At least not anymore.

"At least not anymore". Isn't that the key phrase? When it happens (when the situation is different than previously), there's a backlash. Non-binaries have been forced to conform to a gender pronoun that doesn't describe them for thousands of years.

 

[Name the Stars]

Where?

Russia, Hungary, South Korea, and Poland are all pretty shakey/ bad when it comes to non binary rights

 

[WillowFromBuffy]

When I grew up, my friends and I were all homophobes, but as we learnt more about the world, we grew out of it at unequal speeds, and now we talk as though we have always seen the world as we do now. It is not surprising that people will fall back into using all scapegoats as they grow more embittered about life, but it is highly disappointing.

It is the same that happened with the baby boomers (née the Children of Aquarius). Like, seriously? What happened to there? Maybe it's just that I live in Norway and all our nostalgia for the 60s is borrowed from the US and England.

And LGBTQ-issues aside, the Millenials and the emerging Gen Z have always been seen as the most conservative and least rebellious generations since forever.

For instance what @Ethan Reigns is talking about? Being "forced" to use the proper pronouns, etc. Sorry, I don't have that much experience with it and didn't really know how to word it. When I said " that everyone use the same vernacular? It's still trying to force your ideals and beliefs onto another and make them behave in a manner you find acceptable." by using words and phrases they find appealing versus what has been considered the norm.

How often on a daily basis would you say people force you to use their preferred pronoun? I hang around some pretty pretentious people sometimes and nobody has ever corrected me on my pronoun use.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

How often on a daily basis would you say people force you to use their preferred pronoun? I

Personally or professionally?

there's a backlash.

And that goes back to the original post as I don't see backlash which is why I was surprised the number dropped in the last two years.

 

[The Bronze]

It's sad but not entirely surprising. Any group of people contains some morons. Now that LGBT is more mainstream people are getting exposed to more morons within that group. Inevitably that drives some backlash.

Also I feel that explaining homosexuality for people to grasp is easy. Just ask them what they like, then tell them to change to the opposite. They say they can't, the penny drops for the majority. Not as easy with trans and various gender identities. I'm more than happy to live and let live but I can't wrap my head around how anyone could possibly know they're in the wrong body when they've only got experience of the one they have.

Also a pet peeve of mine is the idea that there's a LGBT community. People talk about it like it's a hive mind and it's baffling. Whatever you happen to be or whoever you like doesn't mean your part of a collective.

 

[WillowFromBuffy]

Personally or professionally?

Does it happen at all is really what I'm asking.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

Does it happen at all is really what I'm asking.

Yes. For the first few months it took some time to get used to, but after almost two years I don't think about it as much. But the first few times I slipped up and referred to them as she I was reminded by my business partner to we could be sued for it. But any time we bring in temp labor (four or five times a year) we have to sorta brief them as well.

 

[WillowFromBuffy]

Yes. For the first few months it took some time to get used to, but after almost two years I don't think about it as much. But the first few times I slipped up and referred to them as she I was reminded by my business partner to we could be sued for it. But any time we bring in temp labor (four or five times a year) we have to sorta brief them as well.

What I don't get about this issue is that you don't very often use gendered pronouns in their presence, unless you are speaking about them to someone else that is almost in the room, and even then you would use their name, unless you're telling an involved story about them and want to avoid the repetition. I assume you're referring to someone who works in your office, and so I guess you would have to know.

But really, I can't believe you risk getting sued for a slip-up. If you deliberately refused to validate someone's gender identity over time, then that is probably a different matter. People misgender each other on here all the time, but it doesn't seem to have caused much conflict.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

But really, I can't believe you risk getting sued for a slip-up.

You'd be surprised what people would try to sue you over, especially if/when you have to let them go. We are a very litigious country. What makes it worse, in a regard, is that we are a fire at will state and that we do not need to have a reason to fire you. Couple that with easily being able to deny unemployment benefits if you deem they are not worthy and it can open you up for descrimatory suits from people who have felt jilted. And it can be "that time you said I looked nice" is being called sexual harassment. Of course never actually been sued (for that at least, have other things) but have had many people threaten to do so over the years. It's still something that needs to be addressed- especially with workers not familiar with the situation.

 

[Blaze]

I don't see very many LGBT people being surprised at those stats.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

I don't see very many LGBT people being surprised at those stats.

But again, why? Why do you think support has dropped? I just assumed it would raise as it becomes more "normal" but it's the opposite. Do you think it's similar to what @The Bronze said? Or what do you think?

 

[WillowFromBuffy]

You'd be surprised what people would try to sue you over, especially if/when you have to let them go. We are a very litigious country. What makes it worse, in a regard, is that we are a fire at will state and that we do not need to have a reason to fire you. Couple that with easily being able to deny unemployment benefits if you deem they are not worthy and it can open you up for descrimatory suits from people who have felt jilted. And it can be "that time you said I looked nice" is being called sexual harassment. Of course never actually been sued (for that at least, have other things) but have had many people threaten to do so over the years. It's still something that needs to be addressed- especially with workers not familiar with the situation.

So, there is a general culture of paranoia over ungrounded lawsuits, and people pay undue attention to the ones coming from LGBTQ people, using them as a scapegoat to draw attention away from workers' rights?

 

[Name the Stars]

But again, why? Why do you think support has dropped? I just assumed it would raise as it becomes more "normal" but it's the opposite. Do you think it's similar to what @The Bronze said? Or what do you think?

Backlash. It's the natural cycle. There are always periods of progress, and periods of backlash. I suppose that we are in the backlash subset.