Meta - Spike and Angel(us): I don’t judge them by different standards

[Firstina]

In a way that he handled everything fast. Like really fast and with support.
And even though I personally don't get it he also managed to have like no problems in vampire area, so to speak.

 

[Silverspike]

Well imo I don't think it was just down to luck. Other factors where involved imo, such as what his core personality was as well as the chip etc.

"And even though I personally don't get it he also managed to have like no problems in vampire area, so to speak."

Well he wasn't Angel. 😀 All vamps are different thank god and react differently.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

All vamps are different thank god and react differently.

well, theoretically.. but we haven't seen how that little comic book arc pans out.

 

[Silverspike]

Oh forget the comics. They're bollocks imo. 😀

 

[white avenger]

No, it doesn't. Just means he was more socialized. That was the point of the chip. Wild animals can be socialized, doesnt mean they are more evolved that other animals.

What, if Spike became so well and all cool about everything in a very short time period, Angel suddenly should give up and start to cry in a corner because of that? Or vice versa.
Yeah, I can see that Angel even with the soul is more screwed up being but it doesn't automatically makes Spike a better man-pire. He just got lucky. Good-y for him.

In a way that he handled everything fast. Like really fast and with support.
And even though I personally don't get it he also managed to have like no problems in vampire area, so to speak.

There are two vampires with souls, and, for whatever reasons, and there are some very valid ones, including, but not limited to, those mentioned here. All that they amount to is that Spike adjusted to being required to change his life style to compensate for his changing status than Angel did. Spike got better breaks. That doesn't imply that he is better at this point than Angel is, it's just saying that Spike reached this point in less time. He found the tunnel through the mountain, so he didn't have to climb over it.

Spike could have have played the role of friend, supporter, confidante, and, yes, lover, to Buffy that he did if he were still associating with vampires and feeding off of humans, regardless of their moral standing.

If it makes anyone feel any better about the situation, Spike will never, in a million years, be as tall as Angel. See? Everything equals out. 

In a way that he handled everything fast. Like really fast and with support.
And even though I personally don't get it he also managed to have like no problems in vampire area, so to speak.

That might be because the Gypsies didn't just give Angelus a soul, they gave him a TROUBLED soul, and it's kept him from being able to put all that stuff behind him in all these years. The Cave Demon just gave Spike a soul, no strings attached, no pain, no guilt, no bad memories.

 

[SiegePerilous02]

That might be because the Gypsies didn't just give Angelus a soul, they gave him a TROUBLED soul, and it's kept him from being able to put all that stuff behind him in all these years. The Cave Demon just gave Spike a soul, no strings attached, no pain, no guilt, no bad memories.

No, the Romani returned Angel's human soul, and the Cave Demon returned Spike's human soul. The only difference is that Spike gets out of the "Moment of Happiness" clause. Everything else is the same. The soul Angel got didn't come attached with pain, guilt and bad memories, that was a natural reaction to a human being placed in demon body with detailed memories of what that body did, and the same urges telling him to do those things again. Spike went crazy from the guilt after all, so clearly he's got some pain and bad memories to go along with his.

 

[thetopher]

That was a request for information, not an invitation for sarcasm. But I do think that it's a valid point

I've heard this shaky arguement before and I'm just giving it the reaction it deserves. There is no evidence that Angelus did anything bad to get that mansion- we don't see or are even told what happened to the owners.
We do, on the other hand, see the pleasure that Spike took in snapping that slayers neck and stripping off her coat.

if it was in such bad taste and offensive for Spike to wear Nikki's coat, why was it not just as bad, if not worse, for Angel to stay there, especially if, as you say, Buffy was the one initially responsible for him being there in Season 3.

Because a random place is not an intimate article of clothing that you wrap yourself in. Also, as I said, almost every character on the show 'goes back' to somewhere they did bad things in and hangs around there. Buffy, Willow, Tara, Faith, even Spike.

And yet nobody else wears a momento of their former 'bad self' and gets nostagic about it. (see 'TGIQ') It's wierd, sick and it speaks to a basic lack of humanity with the character.
Only Spike does this because he's 'special'.

As I recall, it was Buffy's statement that she needed "the old Spike" back, and the events that followed, that got him to wearing it again.

Maybe we should be giving Buffy some of the blame for both things.

But Buffy didn't say 'go and put on that coat you took off the dead slayer' did she? She said she wanted him to find his 'evil bad self' or whatever, which apparently meant putting on some clothing as a psychological crutch.

Do I think its wierd that she never commented on it? Yes But I also think Buffy was out of her f*cking gourd for a large chunk of the last season and it starts right about 'Get It Done' where she calls that scared little girl stupid and weak and then shouts at everybody.

Good does not mean likable - unless you consider every human you know as likable. Good does not mean brooding, or filled with pain.

If I gonna watch some characteron a tv show, I'd like some outward signs of humanity please.

And I am so sick of hearing about the coat. Spike bested a slayer - the hardest fight a vampire can find. He sought worthy opponents - ones who would be the best opponent possible.

Tough because at the very least it points to a fundemental character flaw with the guy, so its gonna get brought up. No character had the decency to on the show so it's gonna crop up here. If some other character did this then they'd be called out on it as well.

And its nice that you put 'stalking and killing a champion of good' in its most bloodless context possible. Nikki Wood seemed like a good, decent person, a slayer and a mother. She didn't deserve to die.
Also soulless Spike has a problem/fixation with strong women so he stalks and kills them when the opportunity presents itself.
He's a serial killer and he has a 'type'- that's a more accurate way of putting it.

Then the man who claims the coat should be his conspires to make sure that their leader got stalled while he incapacitate Spike and then proceeds to try to beat him to death - and wood does it in full and absolute knowledge that he is aiding the enemy. If Wood had just said "I am waiting until this fight is over and then I am going to stake your ass for killing my mother" I would have some respect. Yes -they all could have united for a common cause despite being enemies - you know, like Spike did for not retaliating against Wood and Giles.

So because Wood was going to kill him that justifies Spike putting on the coat retroactivly? I'm just trying to see your reasoning here...

It seems to me that the only time Spike tried to kill any Scoob was back in season four.

He conspired with Adam in S4 but he happily put Riley's life in danger in S5, tried to feed Buffy to Dru in S5 and also attacked Buffy in S6.

It's fine if you hate Spike. Not all souled vampires are lovable cuddly teddy bears with fangs. Some are still snarky and irritating.

Yep, and if we happen to find Souled Spike incredibley irritating, with shallow character tics instead of depth then we have a right to call him out on it without people getting up in arms about it.
Oh, and Angel isn't particularly cuddly or teddy bear-like, he does however, have some depth of character.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

But Buffy didn't say 'go and put on that coat you took off the dead slayer' did she? She said she wanted him to find his 'evil bad self'

But she basically did. The Buffy character was horrible in that season. She turned down the ability to overcome the uber-vamps on her on, and then took it out on everyone else. She forced Spike, who was trying to turn away from his past, to reembrace it regardless of the consequences it might have on his psyche. And she 'made' a recovering addict dive back into her addiction.. again, because they had to do Buffy's job as she rejected the ability to do it herself.

So, no, Buffy didnt literally say get your coat, but the way she mocked and belittled Spike- implying he is only good for whinging- she didnt need to outright say it.

 

[thetopher]

But she basically did.

She literally didn't. It was Spike's interpretation that meant that he put on the coat.

The Buffy character was horrible in that season.

Agreed.

She forced Spike,

No she didn't. Spike has a soul which means he has free will. The fact that he's spineless when it comes to Buffy is his problem, not hers.

And she 'made' a recovering addict dive back into her addiction.. again, because they had to do Buffy's job as she rejected the ability to do it herself.

So what? Spike's addicted to being evil? Or violent? Or being a Big Bad? Even if I believed that I don't equate that with 'go back to exactly the way you were, including how you dressed, spoke, acted, etc. That's still Spike's interpretation.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

No she didn't. Spike has a soul which means he has free will. The fact that he's spineless when it comes to Buffy is his problem, not hers.

But the very fact that he is spineless and she can manipulate him in any way she fashions.. when she says "I want the old monster" or words to that effect, that is telling him to become that. Spike is weak willed and has no self identity (he never did), especially when it comes to the fairer sex. If Buffy had said 'stake yourself' it's entirely possible he would have!

That's still Spike's interpretation.

And alot of the audience as well. I think in general most people would take it that way. Especially when your paramour says, I liked you better this way. So he became what she said she liked. He was, for lack of a better word, Buffywhipped.

 

[gite63]

But she basically did. The Buffy character was horrible in that season.

She wasn't that horrible, she had a war to fight, she had to be fierce, with all of them, including those Potentials who suddenly became her responsability. Spike was with Anya when the demon attacked, and instead of fighting him, he fled... Buffy was right, he was holding back. So, he went for the coat.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

she had a war to fight

Yes, SHE had a war to fight. And SHE could have won the war.. but she didnt want to pay the price so others had to suffer as a result.

 

[bespangeled]

I'd have less of a problem with Spike being a work in progress if Joss and the writing staff didn't constantly kiss his ass and call him the more evolved vampire with a soul. And if the fanbase didn't buy into his BS (people say he was good even without his soul, say he's responsible for the good things he did and not the bad things, buy into his stance that Angelus turned him from a docile being into the monster that he was, etc.) They seem to be saying that he's pretty much done, or at least not making things clear enough so that fans interpret him as being perfect the way he is. That scene shows he's putting on a mask, but by the end of the televised shows, we never really see him drop it or have someone else call him out on it. He's free to snipe at Angel, and yes some of it is warranted, but whenever Angel snipes back fans are like "Why's he being so mean to poor innocent Spike? What a jealous douche. Guess he can't handle Spike's realness." Angel has an entire supporting cast of characters who deflate his ego when he needs it, but Spike doesn't. Faith has a similar, "look at me, I'm a badass" mask, but she largely drops it when she grows the hell up.

For the other point: it is kind of a gender issue. One sexually assaulted Buffy in her bathroom, the other didn't. One feeds into rape culture, the other doesn't. Victims of rape and sexual assault have to go on trial the same as the attacker, and are often accused of lying or being stupid for allowing it to happen. Buffy brushes it off like it's nothing, Spike's redemption is given precedence over her feelings, certain segments of the fandom blame the incident on her, and now she needs that monster to help her against a joke like the First Evil. The basic premise of Spike seeking redemption and Buffy forgiving him after she deals with her own issues has some merit, but the execution is thoroughly disgusting for a show like this.

Those are some pretty strong stereotypes - so I'll assume you are not speaking literally. I have no idea why liking Spike seems to automatically mean you don't appreciate Angel. They were different people when they were turned, and they are still very different. So it doesn't surprise me when they react differently to having souls. Angel did turn Spike (by proxy) from a docile (and that is a very polite word) gentlemen. And Spike loved it - I'd say he would be crushed if he shanshued because he loves being as vampire. That's not surprising considering what a seriously wimpy human that he was. And he did do good things while he was unsouled - and chipped. That doesn't mean he did only good things, or that he was being unselfish. The closest he became to unselfish good was his working with the scoobs to watch over Dawn after Buffy dies. Oddly enough there are people who say he did this to get in good with Buffy's decaying body

As far as sniping and snark - I love it. One of my favorite lines is Angel asking if there really is such a thing as a congenital idiot. But it's best if both are sniping - they can get some real funny energy going on. I think both manpires can dish it out and take it. Both can be downright mean, but they also can support each other. There is a century of getting to know each other quite we get glimpses of - and I love that part.

Overall it seems the real complaint about Spike and his soul is that he didn't turn into a fundamentally different person. Spike's demon and his soul can coexist - his demon fought to win the soul - so he remains snarky and unlikable to some even while his actions and choices are very different. Angel's soul was a horrific curse. His demon and his soul are not on friendly terms - they normally can't consciously work together. (Though it seems that some critical skills Angelus has are used byr souled Angel. The glare that can freeze bone marrow and the love for fine things for example.) So - do you know anyone who is snarky, or always brooding - someone who drives you insane? Chances are that they have a soul.

The rape culture has existed since humanity has. AR does feed into the rape culture - with a guy who is horrified and makes reparation including dying to save his victim's life. But I reject the idea that sexual assault is more traumatic than having a friend murdered and being killed yourself, and then being rescued by your best friend who then tries to kill you and your sister. The idea presented is definitely is a gender issue. The message - if we drop everything and focus strictly on Buffy's recovery - is that a sexual assault is the most horrible event that a woman can face. Buffy is not quite strong enough to even try to handle it. The same Buffy who can take on hell gods, psychopaths, demons, the mayor, the master, and much more can be destroyed by a sexual attack. It smacks of a really misogynist view of women - that their sexual purity means more than anything. BTW - what Spike did was horrific on several levels. The worst to me is that he used the fact that she trusted him to get close enough to even attack. The temporary insanity defense is not a defense - it's a description of the problem. Not supporting him or defending. Just - the message that your life is over, you will always be damaged, is extremely toxic to survivors of all sorts.

 

[white avenger]

No, the Romani returned Angel's human soul, and the Cave Demon returned Spike's human soul. The only difference is that Spike gets out of the "Moment of Happiness" clause. Everything else is the same. The soul Angel got didn't come attached with pain, guilt and bad memories, that was a natural reaction to a human being placed in demon body with detailed memories of what that body did, and the same urges telling him to do those things again. Spike went crazy from the guilt after all, so clearly he's got some pain and bad memories to go along with his.

I will rephrase for clarification.

Wherever the soul that the Gypsies cursed Angelus with originated, part of the curse on that soul, aside from the fact that it would have to dwell within the breast of a monster, was that it would never be allowed to give Angelus true peace or come to terms with the sins of his past. They would always haunt him.

I most abjectly apologize for giving the impression that I was trying to force my views on whose soul Angelus received upon you or anyone else on this forum or anywhere else.

 

[SiegePerilous02]

The rape culture has existed since humanity has. AR does feed into the rape culture - with a guy who is horrified and makes reparation including dying to save his victim's life. But I reject the idea that sexual assault is more traumatic than having a friend murdered and being killed yourself, and then being rescued by your best friend who then tries to kill you and your sister. The idea presented is definitely is a gender issue. The message - if we drop everything and focus strictly on Buffy's recovery - is that a sexual assault is the most horrible event that a woman can face. Buffy is not quite strong enough to even try to handle it. The same Buffy who can take on hell gods, psychopaths, demons, the mayor, the master, and much more can be destroyed by a sexual attack. It smacks of a really misogynist view of women - that their sexual purity means more than anything. BTW - what Spike did was horrific on several levels. The worst to me is that he used the fact that she trusted him to get close enough to even attack. The temporary insanity defense is not a defense - it's a description of the problem. Not supporting him or defending. Just - the message that your life is over, you will always be damaged, is extremely toxic to survivors of all sorts.

I don't think sexual assault is the most horrible event every woman on the planet will ever face, but the fact is that our society doesn't always treat it with the seriousness that it deserves. Look how many girls are raped on college campuses and don't go on to report it, because they are afraid of prolonging the trauma by being accused of lying, or blamed for putting herself in that situation in the first place. And then there is men who get raped by women who are accused of making it up or being wimps, or using it as a cover to cheat on their girlfriends. Murder, aside from when it is a clear case of self defense, is 100% treated as a serious crime with a clear perpetrator and a clear victim, and the perpetrator is brought to justice. Angelus killed Jenny, nobody blames Jenny for being murdered, Angel gets sent to Hell as punishment at the end of the season, when he comes back he doesn't get a happy ending and not everybody accepts him with open arms, and he sets to work on his redemption path, etc. Buffy's feelings about the incident are also given precedence over Angel's, because she is the actual victim here. He gets some focus, but never upstages her, and that is how it should be.

I don't think a woman's sexual purity means more than anything, or that they are irreparably damaged. But the show is being misogynistic by ignoring Buffy's feelings almost entirely, and using her almost getting raped as a plot device for Spike's arc is a clear example of Buffy getting Stuffed in the Fridge. Buffy overcoming her trauma like many rape survivors would have been a really compelling character arc, but the show wasn't interested. It glossed over it like many real life examples of rape because the male character took importance. And that's pretty damn toxic.

 

[bespangeled]

I don't think sexual assault is the most horrible event every woman on the planet will ever face, but the fact is that our society doesn't always treat it with the seriousness that it deserves. Look how many girls are raped on college campuses and don't go on to report it, because they are afraid of prolonging the trauma by being accused of lying, or blamed for putting herself in that situation in the first place. And then there is men who get raped by women who are accused of making it up or being wimps, or using it as a cover to cheat on their girlfriends. Murder, aside from when it is a clear case of self defense, is 100% treated as a serious crime with a clear perpetrator and a clear victim, and the perpetrator is brought to justice. Angelus killed Jenny, nobody blames Jenny for being murdered, Angel gets sent to Hell as punishment at the end of the season, when he comes back he doesn't get a happy ending and not everybody accepts him with open arms, and he sets to work on his redemption path, etc. Buffy's feelings about the incident are also given precedence over Angel's, because she is the actual victim here. He gets some focus, but never upstages her, and that is how it should be.

I don't think a woman's sexual purity means more than anything, or that they are irreparably damaged. But the show is being misogynistic by ignoring Buffy's feelings almost entirely, and using her almost getting raped as a plot device for Spike's arc is a clear example of Buffy getting Stuffed in the Fridge. Buffy overcoming her trauma like many rape survivors would have been a really compelling character arc, but the show wasn't interested. It glossed over it like many real life examples of rape because the male character took importance. And that's pretty damn toxic.

Trust me - I am very aware of the realities of rape and sexual assault.

Overall I agree - it would be good to explore the reaction to an assault. I don't think Buffy was almost raped as you said - she was assaulted and she kicked her attacker into a wall. Buffy was able to protect herself again, as she has with so many other threats. She is the slayer. Let's not turn her into a generic victim.

I also think that exploring a single relatively minor trauma was not the nature of the show (no dying, no bleeding, no broken bones, drowning, burning, etc). Buffy had gone through so much more severe trauma in all the previous seasons and episodes. Yes, she'd fall but she got back up and went on to the crisis de jour. If you did focus the entire season on her recovery, you really would be giving the message that the sexual assault was far harder for Buffy to handle than the murder of Tara and Willow's attempt to kill nearly everyone.

They did deal with the real criminal part - the fact that Spike used her trust to get close to her and attack her. Buffy heard him out, and then left him to rot in the basement of crazy, and she went on with her life.

 

[thetopher]

it would be good to explore the reaction to an assault.

I've actually been thinking about this. I tcan't be a coincidence that after the attempted rape Buffy wasn't in another sexual relationship for almost three friggin' years- and even then it was a female subordinate who she knew was in love with her (because of the 'true love' spell)?

I think Buffy was way more screwed up by what Spike did/tried to do than she knew at the time.

I don't think Buffy was almost raped as you said - she was assaulted and she kicked her attacker into a wall. Buffy was able to protect herself again, as she has with so many other threats. She is the slayer. Let's not turn her into a generic victim.

I don't get this 'distinction' or whatever. Buffy was the slayer, true, which would matter if it was just a normal guy, but it wasn't- it was a vampire who's certainly comparable in strength, especially to an injured Buffy.

And to say it isn't attempted rape because the woman fought the man off is just...I know one female friend of mine who would strongly disagree with that sentiment.
I wish some people would stop trying to downgrade the enomity of Spike's betrayal of Buffy's trust. He tried, he failed, but he still tried.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

I wish some people would stop trying to downgrade the enomity of Spike's betrayal of Buffy's trust. He tried, he failed, but he still tried.

He tried to continue their relationship. How many times had Buffy thrown him down and had her way with him? How many times did he do that ti her? How many times had she said it was over only to cave in before the end of the episode?

Spike was not a normal guy. He was a sociopathic vampire with a history of rough sex/abuse in relation to his mates. This was shown both with Dru and Harmony and re-illustrated with Buffy. What he did was, in my opinion, nothing different than he had done before. Just like the chip socialized and conditioned Spike to act a certain way, Buffy did that to him as well. He was simply following his 'programming' because he lacked a soul to formulate the moral implications of his actions.

Spike was a monster. He always was a monster. It should come as no surprise he acts in a monstrous fashion. It's the farmer and the viper.

 

[Silverspike]

"I don't get this 'distinction' or whatever. Buffy was the slayer, true, which would matter if it was just a normal guy, but it wasn't- it was a vampire who's certainly comparable in strength, especially to an injured Buffy."

No it was a vampire shown time and time again not to be as strong as her. And I'm afraid I've always felt the writers attempt at weakening her (I mean for gods sake an average vampire can do such damage, where other big bads have failed?) just didn't convince imo.

 

[RomanticSoul]

I've actually been thinking about this. I tcan't be a coincidence that after the attempted rape Buffy wasn't in another sexual relationship for almost three friggin' years- and even then it was a female subordinate who she knew was in love with her (because of the 'true love' spell)?

I think Buffy was way more screwed up by what Spike did/tried to do than she knew at the time.

Have to agree with that. But the fact remains Buffy and Spike have never dealt with what happened. Writers sacrificing their storytelling integrity just because some fans tend to get very loud. The comics writers have stated before they can't even mention the AR without a shitstorm errupting. Such an embarrasing state of affairs when writers are too afraid of the fans. What happened to 'giving us what we need, not what we want'? All I see is people cowering beneath a section of fans. So no one is actually telling an honest story. It's just fanservice.

I don't get this 'distinction' or whatever. Buffy was the slayer, true, which would matter if it was just a normal guy, but it wasn't- it was a vampire who's certainly comparable in strength, especially to an injured Buffy.

And to say it isn't attempted rape because the woman fought the man off is just...I know one female friend of mine who would strongly disagree with that sentiment.
I wish some people would stop trying to downgrade the enomity of Spike's betrayal of Buffy's trust. He tried, he failed, but he still tried.

You know I'm not going to say that some people have to experience something like this in order to finally get it through their thick skulls. But I find it just as insulting when people brush it off just because Buffy had the strenght to fight him off. Strenght is not really an advantage in a situation like that. Because what you go through psychologically dictates what happens. Buffy could have just as easily ended up frozen in shock and not come out of that. Because you don't exactly remember your strenght when you are petrified.

How can it not be an attempt? Why on earth are there still people arguing that fact? He tried to force intercourse on her after she said no. Hell she was crying and begging (which was nothing like their previous relationship). That is the very definition of attempted rape for God's sake. Attempt is attempt. No if's no but's.