Mr Trick Does the Angel rewatch thingy

[Carrie Hopewell]

That doesn't mean that Spike was right, just that Riley was insecure and Buffy was preoccupied with her family and her slayer duties. Buffy never broke up with Riley.

It doesn't matter if Spike was right or not, it's the message the show sends that counts in this case.

1) Angel season 5 never even featured Buffy, just Anfrew fooling Angel and Spike and making fun of them. Buffy never dated the immortal according to the comics. And 'Chosen' doesn't imply that she will end up with either Spike or Angel, it says outright that Buffy doesn't feel ready for that choice, and that's it.
2) Spike isn't exactly the same as Angel, because he doesn't have the gypsy curse thing. Angel literally CAN'T be allowed to be in a happy relationship, because it might turn him evil. Spike has less problems of that kind.

In Chosen, both Spike and Angel acted like 12 year olds about Buffy starting some sort of love triangle in the last episode which continues in season 5 - Spike and Angel use Buffy to further their competition. I know Buffy chooses neither guy, that she's not in AtS S5 and that The Girl in Question was retconned. That doesn't matter. The end result is that, to this day, we are still debating Bangel vs Spuffy and that part of Buffy's legacy is now: she dated two vampires, which one should she end up with? This one my initial points, that the show turned Buffy's one time fling with a vamp into a pattern and now it's all about how Buffy loves vampires.

Dawn is the Joyce of the later seasons, and Joyce liked Spike in the early seasons too, so it's not any different.

How is Dawn the Joyce of later seasons?

What does that have to do with "accepting Spike into the group"? Tara was still never friendly with Spike.

Buffy thought she was wrong for sleeping with Spike and Tara pointed out that he loved her. She was trying to comfort Buffy, make her actions more justified, but the fact that everyone believed in Spike's love for Buffy - a real, selfless love - means he wasn't a monster in their eyes at all.

Buffy had a romantic relationship with a vampire in seasons 1-3, and she had a romantic relationship with a vampire in seasons 5-7. I don't see the distinction. Angel had a lot of reasons to be mistrusted too.

It's very different. Look, this is going nowhere. I'm just replying to what you say, but we lost the thread of this conversation. All of this started as a reply to @Fuffy Baith:

I don't like it either. It's something that bothers me about the latter seasons. Vampires are treated as either a joke, a romance interest, or just non threatening. Even the Turok Han which started out cool became weak.

Right now, we're just arguing back and forth aimlessly and you know we're never going to agree on this subject.

Sh killed Angel because she had to, to save the world. She didn't kill Spike in season 7 because she was never in a similiar situation with him.

I'll just add that Spike give them every reason to be dusted. And yes, Giles did try to kill Spike in S7. I was focusing on a time before he got his soul.

Well, 'Buffy' was never that good on the plot elements, it was always more character-driven than plot-driven. Remember 'Prophecy Girl', when the master inexplicably lost the ability to mind-control Buffy after she died and was resurrected?

Yes, but "Prophecy Girl" was S1 and Buffy defeated the Master supposedly because dying made her stronger. Not a good reason, but it was the first seasons and it's a minor quibble I have with the episode. You would expect better however from the seasons 5 and 7 finales - one is the end of Buffy on WB and the other one is the end of the show period. They were also the end result of a lot of buildup. Joss should know better by now. It wouldn't take much to rectify some of these plot points.

 

[Mr Trick]

yes, an evil vampire with a group of other evil vampires is hilarious. I get why she laughing, she thinks it's ridiculous that Harmony would have minions, and that she is incompetent. But it's not that far fetched, in high school Harmony had the mean girl click that kicked out Cordy. I just think soulless vampires should have always been treated as a serious threat.

she still didn't kill her! She just let's Harmony go for the rest of season 5!

Yes but bullies in High School are hardly the toughest people if you think about it. Harmony only had the guts to kick Cordy out of the gang or be mean to her in the first place because she had the backing of the others. I'm not saying that Buffy was right to laugh or dismiss Harmony. I'm just saying I can understand why she did and that the humour kind of fits in with that of the show. Very few shows could get away with the sort of thing you are talking about, but a Joss Whedon show can.

Will have to rewatch the episode. I thought she just escaped some how. Didn't think Buffy let her go?

 

[Carrie Hopewell]

I think there are very few reasons for Harmony not to be dead on Buffy and in Angel S2. In Angel S5 however we know Harmony isn't killing humans because of the blood tests and it fits the theme of that season (making a truce with the bad guys).

yes, an evil vampire with a group of other evil vampires is hilarious. I get why she laughing, she thinks it's ridiculous that Harmony would have minions, and that she is incompetent. But it's not that far fetched, in high school Harmony had the mean girl click that kicked out Cordy. I just think soulless vampires should have always been treated as a serious threat.

I agree. In S7 Holden is even used as Buffy's shrink. I get the irony there, but it sort of proves how normalized vamps get in the later seasons. Vampires are always a much more serious threat on AtS, Angel himself included (with the exception of Harmony).

she still didn't kill her! She just let's Harmony go for the rest of season 5!

Even as far back as season 4 they had a chance to dust her. She was a threat to the Scoobies in "The Harsh Light of Day" and that's the beginning of the season.

 

[Fuffy Baith]

Will have to rewatch the episode. I thought she just escaped some how. Didn't think Buffy let her

Buffy knows that Harmony is roaming around in season 5 and she doesn't actively stake her. To me that's letting her go. I guess it's the out of sight out of mind thing, but that to me is not a good enough excuse.
 

I agree. In S7 Holden is even used as Buffy's shrink. I get the irony there, but it sort of proves how normalized vamps get in the later seaso

Yes, but I don't mind that, because she's fighting Holdenn throughout and does stake him at the end.

 

[Mr Trick]

I think there are very few reasons for Harmony not to be dead on Buffy and in Angel S2. In Angel S5 however we know Harmony isn't killing humans because of the blood tests and it fits the theme of that season (making a truce with the bad guys).



I agree. In S7 Holden is even used as Buffy's shrink. I get the irony there, but it sort of proves how normalized vamps get in the later seasons. Vampires are always a much more serious threat on AtS, Angel himself included (with the exception of Harmony).



Even as far back as season 4 they had a chance to dust her. She was a threat to the Scoobies in "The Harsh Light of Day" and that's the beginning of the season.

The Holden example is not a very good one. Its clear throughout their trip down memony line that Buffy always intends to dust him. Besides its just the two of them and their chatting its not like he's in any danger of killing anyone besides maybe Buffy.
 

Buffy knows that Harmony is roaming around in season 5 and she doesn't actively stake her. To me that's letting her go. I guess it's the out of sight out of mind thing, but that to me is not a good ough excuse.
 
Yes, but I don't mind that, because she's fighting Holdenn throughout and does stake him at the end.

Well she can't kill every vampire at the end of the day. And I think you might be taking this a little too seriously. I mean its Harmony!

 

[Stoney]

I'm not saying the scene works or is funny, but that still doesn't mean they shouldn't laugh at Harmony or that it matters. Don't forget their not laughing at the fact she is a vampire, rather that she is attempting to act tough and has so called minions

But including a minion that she has killed, which is tough enough really! Harmony is just always a threat because she is soulless and driven by personal interest, always, and Disharmony is one of the many times when they at least make this very clear. It is just frustrating that her actions and interactions are then just put on repeat and her story is mostly stagnant and circles from here in AtS and onwards with her turning up/betraying them/leaving intact. :s

 

[Guy]

It doesn't matter if Spike was right or not, it's the message the show sends that counts in this case.

I don't think that the show is sending this message. I think that Spike's words raise a question, and this question is related to the main question of season 5: Is Buffy going dark because of her slayer role, or will she be able to keep her humanity? In 'The Gift', we see the answer - Buffy sacrifices her life to save her humanity. So I think that the overall message is that Spike was wrong about that.

In Chosen, both Spike and Angel acted like 12 year olds about Buffy starting some sort of love triangle in the last episode which continues in season 5 - Spike and Angel use Buffy to further their competition. I know Buffy chooses neither guy, that she's not in AtS S5 and that The Girl in Question was retconned. That doesn't matter. The end result is that, to this day, we are still debating Bangel vs Spuffy and that part of Buffy's legacy is now: she dated two vampires, which one should she end up with? This one my initial points, that the show turned Buffy's one time fling with a vamp into a pattern and now it's all about how Buffy loves vampires.

Well, I think that it's mostly the fans who create this legacy. The show itself never had a love triangle between the three, and in 'Chosen' Buffy's reaction to Angel and Spike's petty reactions was to mock them ("Are you just gonna come here and go all Dawson on me every time I have a boyfriend?" "You know, one of these days I'm just gonna put you two in a room and let you wrestle it out"). I always saw it as the show MAKING FUN of the idea of love triangles, not portraying one. Buffy is NOT Sookie.

How is Dawn the Joyce of later seasons?

Ooh, I could write an freakin' article about this... For now, I'll just say that Dawn and Joyce both seemed surprisingly fond of Spike, even when they shouldn't have. So, the early seasons had Joyce friendly with Spike, and the later seasons had Dawn friendly with Spike (until 'Seeing Red', that is).

Buffy thought she was wrong for sleeping with Spike and Tara pointed out that he loved her. She was trying to comfort Buffy, make her actions more justified, but the fact that everyone believed in Spike's love for Buffy - a real, selfless love - means he wasn't a monster in their eyes at all.

1) She never said that his love was"real" or "selfless", just that he loved her. That could mean a lot of things. Maybe she meant that Spike loved Buffy the way I love ice cream?
2) As you said, Tara was trying to comfort Buffy. So, what she said wasn't necessarily her honest opinion.
3) "he wasn't a monster in their eyes at all" is not the same as "they accepted him into the group".

It's very different. Look, this is going nowhere. I'm just replying to what you say, but we lost the thread of this conversation. All of this started as a reply to @Fuffy Baith:

Right now, we're just arguing back and forth aimlessly and you know we're never going to agree on this subject.

True. I was just enjoying the debate, I'm sorry if this annoyed you. Cheers.

Yes, but "Prophecy Girl" was S1 and Buffy defeated the Master supposedly because dying made her stronger. Not a good reason, but it was the first seasons and it's a minor quibble I have with the episode. You would expect better however from the seasons 5 and 7 finales - one is the end of Buffy on WB and the other one is the end of the show period. They were also the end result of a lot of buildup. Joss should know better by now. It wouldn't take much to rectify some of these plot points.

I don't know... At those points ('The Gift' and 'Chosen'), I really wasn't expecting a brilliant plot, I was expecting an emotional climax and satisfying ends to the character arcs and thematic arcs, and I got it. It would have been even better if the plots were more impressive, but the imperfect plotting never bothered me... YMMV.

 

[Mr Trick]

But including a minion that she has killed, which is tough enough really! Harmony is just always a threat because she is soulless and driven by personal interest, always, and Disharmony is one of the many times when they at least make this very clear. It is just frustrating that her actions and interactions are then just put on repeat and her story is mostly stagnant and circles from here in AtS and onwards with her turning up/betraying them/leaving intact. :s

But some of that has to be simply put down to the fact that its a TV show and that the writers of the show have decided that Harmony still has a role to play in future episodes. Maybe they could have come up with a more convicing excuse for her not to be killed, but that is part of it I think. Its similiar to how you know within reason that the lead character of television show is not going to be killed off because there would be no show next week without them.

 

[Fuffy Baith]

Well she can't kill every vampire at the end of the day. And I think you might be taking this a little too seriously. I mean its Harmony!

That's the same attitude the show has, and I hate that. It's like Giles says to Xander in The Harvest. It's not their friend but an evil demon possessing their body. I get that it would be hard to kill a face you recognize but Buffy know better. Or should know better.

 

[Carrie Hopewell]

Yes, but I don't mind that, because she's fighting Holdenn throughout and does stake him at the end.

The Holden example is not a very good one. Its clear throughout their trip down memony line that Buffy always intends to dust him. Besides its just the two of them and their chatting its not like he's in any danger of killing anyone besides maybe Buffy.

I don't mind Holden either. But this isn't something the show would do in the early seasons. Having a serious talk with a run of the mill vamp, even if it's humorous and works well in the episode, it's something that happens because of how normal and blase vampires were by that point.

But including a minion that she has killed, which is tough enough really! Harmony is just always a threat because she is soulless and driven by personal interest, always, and Disharmony is one of the many times when they at least make this very clear. It is just frustrating that her actions and interactions are then just put on repeat and her story is mostly stagnant and circles from here in AtS and onwards with her turning up/betraying them/leaving intact. :s

I agree. She did betray Angel at the end! I'd forgotten about that. It's loyalty on Angel's part I guess? It's the very last episode so it doesn't upset me much. Now, Harmony in the comics... that's annoying.

 

[Guy]

But including a minion that she has killed, which is tough enough really! Harmony is just always a threat because she is soulless and driven by personal interest, always, and Disharmony is one of the many times when they at least make this very clear. It is just frustrating that her actions and interactions are then just put on repeat and her story is mostly stagnant and circles from here in AtS and onwards with her turning up/betraying them/leaving intact. :s

I kinda like the circular nature of Harmony's character arc (or lack thereof), because harmony was always presented as "Cordelia, if she couldn't change". It's fascinating to me, the way Harmony always comes to the brink of growing as a person... And then regresses. I would honestly be disappointed if Harmony ever grew up and changed. I love her as a constant reminder of what Buffy and Cordelia used to be.

I wouldn't want an entire season of Harmony-centric episodes, but I really love her as a recurring character.
 

I don't mind Holden either. But this isn't something the show would do in the early seasons. Having a serious talk with a run of the mill vamp, even if it's humorous and works well in the episode, it's something that happens because of how normal and blase vampires were by that point.

Well, what's the problem with vampires being normal and blase? It makes sense that Buffy would not be worried about them after years of slaying them, and honestly it would be annoying if the show expected me to still be frightened of vampires after 7 years of watching Buffy kick their ass. Buffy got new threats in the later seasons to replace the now-unimpressive vampires, so it's not like the show lacked conflict.

 

[Mr Trick]

I don't mind Holden either. But this isn't something the show would do in the early seasons. Having a serious talk with a run of the mill vamp, even if it's humorous and works well in the episode, it's something that happens because of how normal and blase vampires were by that point.



I agree. She did betray Angel at the end! I'd forgotten about that. It's loyalty on Angel's part I guess? It's the very last episode so it doesn't upset me much. Now, Harmony in the comics... that's annoying.

But I think you're missing the point. These things have to happen for the show to be progressive. If Buffy just met and dusted every vampire she comes across each week don't you think it might get a little boring and predictable after awhile? The scene with Holden works because of the subversive nature of the show. It fits within the surreal universe of a Joss Wheldon show. Another reason I think for scenes like that is because of the level of confidence that Buffy has in her own abilities. Confidence which may at times tip over into arrogance, but then thats not a bad thing as it makes the character more interesting.

 

[Carrie Hopewell]

@Guy I can't actually quote you because of the way you replied to me so I'll just say:

1. Buffy is not Sookie, very true, but while the show did make fun of Spike and Angel's love for Buffy, I do believe wholeheartedly that vamp love became too much a part of the show. And Buffy's legacy isn't just constructed by the fans, it's also very much constructed by the writers.

2. About Joyce and Dawn: the next time I watch seasons 5-7 (in a long while probably), I'll pay attention to that.

3. I'm not offended by you joining the debate It's just that, by this point, we were going around circles. Plus, I spend too much time talking about a character and a ship I don't even like. Though I admit I was the one who brought it up.

4. I get your point about The Gift and Chosen, but to me the plot inconsistencies dragged the episodes down a lot, especially when you have episodes that were perfect on all levels.

 

[Mr Trick]

Not to mention this is a review thread!

 

[Guy]

@Guy I can't actually quote you because of the way you replied to me

Yeah, sorry about that. I'm still learning this whole forum thing...

1. Buffy is not Sookie, very true, but while the show did make fun of Spike and Angel's love for Buffy, I do believe wholeheartedly that vamp love became too much a part of the show. And Buffy's legacy isn't just constructed by the fans, it's also very much constructed by the writers.

I guess I just never thought of Bangel and Spuffy as "vampire love"... It always seemed to me like just other relationships, for some reason. Honestly, I kinda have a hard time thinking about Angel and Spike as vampires, since they're so modern and human. They're really not Dracula-types. They never felt like centuries-old immortals to me.

The only vampire in the Buffyverse the really felt like she was around for a LONG time is Drusilla, actually. She's the only one that really makes me think "yep, vampire".

2. About Joyce and Dawn: the next time I watch seasons 5-7 (in a long while probably), I'll pay attention to that.

Oh, please do. There's lots of interesing parallels going on there.

3. I'm not offended by you joining the debate It's just that, by this point, we were going around circles. Plus, I spend too much time talking about a character and a ship I don't even like.

Yeah, I get that. Some debates just can't be resolved.

4. I get your point about The Gift and Chosen, but to me the plot inconsistencies dragged the episodes down a lot, especially when you have episodes that were perfect on all levels.

I wonder... Which episodes do you consider to be perfect on all levels?

 

[Carrie Hopewell]

Well, what's the problem with vampires being normal and blase? It makes sense that Buffy would not be worried about them after years of slaying them, and honestly it would be annoying if the show expected me to still be frightened of vampires after 7 years of watching Buffy kick their ass. Buffy got new threats in the later seasons to replace the now-unimpressive vampires, so it's not like the show lacked conflict.

But I think you're missing the point. These things have to happen for the show to be progressive. If Buffy just met and dusted every vampire she comes across each week don't you think it might get a little boring and predictable after awhile? The scene with Holden works because of the subversive nature of the show. It fits within the surreal universe of a Joss Wheldon show. Another reason I think for scenes like that is because of the level of confidence that Buffy has in her own abilities. Confidence which may at times tip over into arrogance, but then thats not a bad thing as it makes the character more interesting.

Obviously vampires are very much non-threatening at this point, although Buffy can't ever allow herself to get too cocky about that (like in Fool for Love). I believe Angel always conveyed well the threat of vampires and at the same time the moral gray area they presented. I do understand the point your about Holden, but I'm leaving this discussion. Feel free to go at it without me

Not to mention this is a review thread!

And an Angel one at that. So please let's forget about Holden and BtVS. Otherwise I'll be defending myself all night long. We're kinda on opposites sides of this fandom.

Yeah, sorry about that. I'm still learning this whole forum thing...

Me too. I think you just accidentally replied within the quote, no biggie.

I guess I just never thought of Bangel and Spuffy as "vampire love"... It always seemed to me like just other relationships, for some reason. Honestly, I kinda have a hard time thinking about Angel and Spike as vampires, since they're so modern and human. They're really not Dracula-types. They never felt like centuries-old immortals to me.

The only vampire in the Buffyverse the really felt like she was around for a LONG time is Drusilla, actually. She's the only one that really makes me think "yep, vampire".

I think Angel feels more like one, but not on Buffy. On his own show we explore his history a lot and how it's still affecting his life in the present. Angel feels very much like a vampire to me, just not the kind you see on "True Blood". Not that Angel wouldn't wipe the floor with the lot of them .

I wonder... Which episodes do you consider to be perfect on all levels?

Well, the Body (no vampire plot there). Innocence (though you could argue about the curse), Becoming (the best season finale), Graduation Day (not sure how they got all those explosives ready on time), Hush (the most perfect Buffy episode probably, though not my favorite by miles) and a lot of other monster of the week episodes. Considering our debate, Becoming is the best example: you have a Big Bad eliminated by Buffy and realistically, huge life changing character moments (for Buffy, Willow and Giles), gives you ton of feels, it's well written, acted, directed, it's iconic, progressive and surprising. My favorite Buffy episode .

 

[Guy]

I think Angel feels more like one, but not on Buffy. On his own show we explore his history a lot and how it's still affecting his life in the present. Angel feels very much like a vampire to me, just not the kind you see on "True Blood". Not that Angel wouldn't wipe the floor with the lot of them .

But in his own show, Angel starts SMILING a lot, which really ruins the whole vampire vibe for me.

Well, the Body (no vampire plot there). Innocence (though you could argue about the curse), Becoming (the best season finale), Graduation Day (not sure how they got all those explosives ready on time), Hush (the most perfect Buffy episode probably, though not my favorite by miles) and a lot of other monster of the week episodes. Considering our debate, Becoming is the best example: you have a Big Bad eliminated by Buffy and realistically, huge life changing character moments (for Buffy, Willow and Giles), gives you ton of feels, it's well written, acted, directed, it's iconic, progressive and surprising. My favorite Buffy episode .

Huh. I completely agree about Hush!

I love all of those episodes too, of course, but I think that they have similiar plot issues to 'Chosen' and 'The Gift'. It doesn't hurt those episodes at all for me, but it is there. Like the fact that the whole Acathla crisis in 'Becoming' is so last-minute-y, with a big rock that JUST HAPPENS to arrive to Sunnydale when Angelus JUST HAPPENS to be the only one who can unleash Acathla, and Kendra JUST HAPPENS to come with the only sword that can stop Acathla, etc... 'Innocence' also has a lot of contrivancies with the curse and a lot of logic-fails with the Judge, and...
Well, goddamit why am I even talking about this? These episodes are all freakin' awesome! Forget that I just said that, please, and go rewatch Buffy or something.

 

[Carrie Hopewell]

But in his own show, Angel starts SMILING a lot, which really ruins the whole vampire vibe for me.

Ugh, don't remind me. I try to repress Angel season 3 from my mind.

I love all of those episodes too, of course, but I think that they have similiar plot issues to 'Chosen' and 'The Gift'. It doesn't hurt those episodes at all for me, but it is there. Like the fact that the whole Acathla crisis in 'Becoming' is so last-minute-y, with a big rock that JUST HAPPENS to arrive to Sunnydale when Angelus JUST HAPPENS to be the only one who can unleash Acathla, and Kendra JUST HAPPENS to come with the only sword that can stop Acathla, etc... 'Innocence' also has a lot of contrivancies with the curse and a lot of logic-fails with the Judge, and...

True, but they're minor plot issues and they happen in the first part of Becoming, not at the end of part 2. I don't have a problem with Acathla. Sunnydale attracts those kind of artifacts, the demon community knows about them, Angelus ceased his moment. Kendra knowing about it because her watcher told her is not as believable, but it's a non issue. Also, I assume that Angelus' sword would also do the trick. Agreed about Innocence, but most of the issues come from Surprise.

Well, goddamit why am I even talking about this? These episodes are all freakin' awesome! Forget that I just said that, please, and go rewatch Buffy or something.

Good idea, but not tonight. It's late here in Portugal.

 

[DeadlyDuo]

Obviously vampires are very much non-threatening at this point, although Buffy can't ever allow herself to get too cocky about that (like in Fool for Love). I believe Angel always conveyed well the threat of vampires and at the same time the moral gray area they presented. I do understand the point your about Holden, but I'm leaving this discussion. Feel free to go at it without me

I don't think they explored the morally grey area of vampires enough. Angel was basically "Oh he's a good vampire. He did some bad stuff in the past but he feels really bad about it". Spike and Dru would've been the perfect opportunity (before Spike got chipped). You've got their vampire nature (killing, drinking blood) but you also got a human side to them (care and affection for each other). They had their own little unit and how they were alone together was completely different to how they were in front of others.

But in his own show, Angel starts SMILING a lot, which really ruins the whole vampire vibe for me.

Well Angel needed to do something other than mope all the time.

 

[Guy]

Ugh, don't remind me. I try to repress Angel season 3 from my mind.

Sorry.

True, but they're minor plot issues and they happen in the first part of Becoming, not at the end of part 2. I don't have a problem with Acathla. Sunnydale attracts those kind of artifacts, the demon community knows about them, Angelus ceased his moment. Kendra knowing about it because her watcher told her is not as believable, but it's a non issue. Also, I assume that Angelus' sword would also do the trick. Agreed about Innocence, but most of the issues come from Surprise.

AAAAAND That's exactly what I say about all the plot issues in 'The Gift' and 'Chosen'.

Good idea, but not tonight. It's late here in Portugal.

Good night, then.

DeadlyDuo

Well Angel needed to do something other than mope all the time.

That's true. It just made him feel less vampire-y.