Question for the Bangelfolk - Spuffy in the comics

But would it really be worth it? For one thing they absolutely decimated Angel to the point where if you are going to take his comic storyline seriously, even simply for the sake of continuity, I don't see them being able to get past the magnitude of the Twilight arc in a believable way. For another, they've been pinballing Buffy between Angel and Spike since Chosen. Would Buffy eventually getting together with Angel even hold any meaning anymore?

Well this is a tough question. On the one had, I agree that the Twilight arc was an assassination of Angel's character. I am really not one to be defending the comics, I dislike them, when I read them I'm like ugh why am I reading this BUT I do think that they do a decent job with Angel in the Angel and Faith comics. I like Angel much more in the comics than Buffy in the comics. And in A&F they address the Twilight issues, you see Angel at least trying to make "amends" (sigh.... yes again....) for the crap he did. And by the time you get to BTVS Season 10 when Angel crosses over Buffy seems to be in a good place with Angel, she certainly has trust issues to work out with him but she accepts his apology and she isn't accusatory. The fact that he went through what he went through to bring Giles back probably does some to redeem him from the Twilight arc. And then we aren't really sure how much of the Twilight stuff was his doing and not the entity that possessed him?? I prefer to not think about the Twilight arc to much because my head will hurt.

With regards to bringing Buffy and Angel together, I have said it before and I will say it again, it would NOT be a walk in the park. In fact I think there are some great stories to tell. I think Angel and Buffy would fight, I think they would have a difficult time adjusting to being around each other on a daily basis in fact and I think it would be a very interesting story to bring those characters together again after so very long. So it would be worth it to explore if the characters, who appear to still love each other, could even stand each other. Maybe much of this comes from the fact that I still read the characters based on the shows and not on the comics but to me, the only other person in the world that really understands the burdens and responsibilities that Buffy faces on a daily basis is Angel. Because he feels those same burdens and responsibilities in his work. They have both sacrificed so much for the world, including each other. So allowing them to be together at the end after all of the struggles would certainly mean something, it would mean that maybe it was all worth it, and maybe the hero (hero in this case is BOTH Buffy and Angel) gets their happy ending. But then again not every story is a happy ending.
 
With regards to bringing Buffy and Angel together, I have said it before and I will say it again, it would NOT be a walk in the park. In fact I think there are some great stories to tell. I think Angel and Buffy would fight, I think they would have a difficult time adjusting to being around each other on a daily basis in fact and I think it would be a very interesting story to bring those characters together again after so very long. So it would be worth it to explore if the characters, who appear to still love each other, could even stand each other. Maybe much of this comes from the fact that I still read the characters based on the shows and not on the comics but to me, the only other person in the world that really understands the burdens and responsibilities that Buffy faces on a daily basis is Angel. Because he feels those same burdens and responsibilities in his work. They have both sacrificed so much for the world, including each other. So allowing them to be together at the end after all of the struggles would certainly mean something, it would mean that maybe it was all worth it, and maybe the hero (hero in this case is BOTH Buffy and Angel) gets their happy ending. But then again not every story is a happy ending.
Yep, yep, yep and yep! Agree with this 100%. Based on the shows I absolutely can see how one could build a hugely compelling story post NFA(or ATF/'Chosen'. Based on the comics though, I struggle to see how it can be done convincingly without making Buffy look like some sort of relationship-boomerang (though I suppose by now she already does), or by retconning all the nonsense.
 
I also think Riley and Spike loved Buffy more than she loved them. I think she did love Angel as much, and I personally believe she has the capacity to love Faith as much, which is a big part of why I want to see them explored now. After having Buffy be with any major character she had chemistry with, I feel like the writers not exploring Fuffy is almost nonsensical and silly at this point lol.
 
I've said it a few times before, but the comics have always felt, at best, like glorified fanfiction to me. Just because I know it's canon doesn't mean it *feels* like canon, like with The Cursed Child in the HP 'verse, even though that one actually canonized several pieces of my headcanon. S8 was ridiculously over-the-top and nearly every single thing about it annoyed me, long before it reached the Twilight arc. I'm also not a fan of Georges Jeanty's art style. I did buy the A&F comics (and am still buying the Angel comics) because they're centered on a lot of my favorite characters and I adore Rebecca Isaacs's style, but I'm like three years behind on actually reading them. So I don't really think about Spuffy in the comics.

To me, because of Joss's absurd belief that a functional relationship does not an interesting story make, longterm Buffy/Angel can only happen at the end of the story. The comics, however, might never actually end, which makes a Buffy/Angel relationship the tomorrow that never comes. Which would be a lot more maddening if I were capable of feeling that same sense of canon-ness about the comics that I do about the shows. Instead, I just write a lot of Buffy/Angel fanfiction.

As to reconsidering Spuffy, every time I rewatch the shows, I somehow manage to dislike Spuffy even more than I already did, and I already didn't think that was possible two rewatches ago. Spike's interest in Buffy is intensely creepy in S5, their "relationship" in S6 is blatantly abusive and a clear metaphor for addiction and depression, and I can't stand the way S7 made Buffy responsible for Spike's emotional well-being, even though she owed him absolutely freaking nothing and if he'd had any decency, he wouldn't have shown his face around her ever again. And that's why I'll never be in favor of anything happening between them in the comics (to the extent that I care about the comics), even if it's portrayed as respectful, functional, and loving.
 
BeebeKnox
BeebeKnox
I don't think they should have used the cookie dough speech if they weren't going to put bangel together. If they weren't going to be together then Angel should have told buffy that he had fallen inlove with Cordy.
So recently I find myself flirting with 'shipping again. I used to be an unabashed B/A fan in my teens ('cause, duh!) but have since been reluctant to call myself a 'shipper since a) for me authenticity of character trumps romantic pairing, always and b) I'm rather uncomfortable with labels as I find them rather reductive (except feminism- that one I'll stand by till my death! 🙂)

If you're all about authenticity of character, there's nothing for you in the way the comics have handled Spuffy. It seems healthy because they're pushing it that way, but everything that happened over the course of the show made it impossible for Spuffy to ever be healthy as long as the characters remained true to themselves. With that choice ahead of them the writers decided to go with the snoozefest of Buffy and Spike dating like a normal couple who has no relevant history with each other.

Nope, not reconsidering. 🙂
 
Taaroko
Taaroko
See, I don't know enough about the comics to make a comment like that, but I give it my full support!
I actually liked the first half of season 8. The idea of a slayer training base and the concept that Buffy may have done more harm than good by imposing slayerhood on the potentials was a good one. It was the second half which then turned into crackfic when Joss got over-excited when he realised he had an unlimited budget. I also didn't understand the whole 'Buffy betrays herself' theme for the ending. Like, how? First of all, surely the Twilight-possession means that she was manipulated/controlled into the space-boink (ugh!), which means it's not her fault. Secondly, what real life experience was S8 supposed to represent anyway? And the 'seed' concept...just, why? Like you said, they definitely didn't feel canonical, just absurd and overblown.

Jeanty's art was too cartoonish for me. Isaac's was so much better. But for me Stephen Mooney will always be tops. I've just been rereading ATF and he truly has the gift for capturing likenesses and expressions. (Though Nick Runge was pretty good too, just a bit inconsistent from panel to panel).

To me, because of Joss's absurd belief that a functional relationship does not an interesting story make, longterm Buffy/Angel can only happen at the end of the story. The comics, however, might never actually end, which makes a Buffy/Angel relationship the tomorrow that never comes. Which would be a lot more maddening if I were capable of feeling that same sense of canon-ness about the comics that I do about the shows. Instead, I just write a lot of Buffy/Angel fanfiction.
Thing is, he has just gone and contradicted this belief completely by allowing Spuffy to happen in S11. It seems healthy and non-conflicty. So what's that about?
Though to be fair, given the 'sure, whatever' response that Deniwizard quoted earlier, I'm pretty sure even Joss doesn't give much of a toss about his characters/story at this point.

I'm in the middle of a rewatch at the moment so I'm attempting to consider Spuffy with a clear and open mind (I don't have the full set of DVDs so I'm relying on SyFy's reruns, which are kind of annoying because they're remastered and censored to the point of ridiculousness - they even cut the beginning of Buffy's scene with the 7 vamps in 'Into the Woods'. Dunno why, there wasn't even a swear word in the dialogue!). I've just done 'Fool for Love' - 'Into the Woods' and I'm still trying to understand why they retconned Spike's infatuation all the way back to season 2? 😵
 
Thing is, he has just gone and contradicted this belief completely by allowing Spuffy to happen in S11. It seems healthy and non-conflicty. So what's that about?
Though to be fair, given the 'sure, whatever' response that Deniwizard quoted earlier, I'm pretty sure even Joss doesn't give much of a toss about his characters/story at this point.

If Joss or whoever running the story has decided that functional long-term relationships are finally allowed, and Spuffy is the one they're going with, then that's not an improvement. Particularly for the reasons @Kairos outlined. They are not stable relationship material because of who they are as people, and forcing them into one requires changing the characters beyond recognition. (Similar to why romantic Angel/Cordy is neither compelling nor believable to me, at least outside of "You're Welcome.") Buffy/Angel, on the other hand, were only ever not together because external forces kept them apart. Overcoming those external forces would require the writers to let go of the dramatic crutches they've been using since BtVS S3 (the happiness clause, specifically). I'm not holding my breath for that. Plus, if Buffy and Angel got together, there would have to only be one comics series, so there's a monetary incentive to never do that.
 
If you're all about authenticity of character, there's nothing for you in the way the comics have handled Spuffy. It seems healthy because they're pushing it that way, but everything that happened over the course of the show made it impossible for Spuffy to ever be healthy as long as the characters remained true to themselves. With that choice ahead of them the writers decided to go with the snoozefest of Buffy and Spike dating like a normal couple who has no relevant history with each other.

The comics do the following: "Spike went out and got his soul for me" and also "Spike cannot be blamed for the things his demon did" this contradiction is my greatest annoyance of the ship of the writing of the continued relationship. IF and that is a BIG IF, the writers in Season 7 had not been so unabashedly disinterested in following their soul cannon and Spike's soul had returned to him and CHANGED him, the way Angelus/Angel are different, then I guess I could see how Buffy and Spike could go on to have this healthy relationship but he would be a brand new person and I would think he would have to fall in love with her all over again and she would have to get to know this new soul guy. Unfortunately the soul does little to change Spike, still dresses the same acts the same and yet she seems to believe all of his sins are wiped clean because he now has his soul. But who is really in control is up for debate. It is all very strange.

Thing is, he has just gone and contradicted this belief completely by allowing Spuffy to happen in S11. It seems healthy and non-conflicty. So what's that about?
Though to be fair, given the 'sure, whatever' response that Deniwizard quoted earlier, I'm pretty sure even Joss doesn't give much of a toss about his characters/story at this point.

Yeah, I wonder how much Joss even gives a crap at this point. Part of me would like to believe they are his babies and he cares but I find it hard to believe he would let the Season 8 stuff go off the handle the way it did if he was really at the helm. If they concern was "Bangel is boring lets not do it" well you just made Spuffy pretty boring. In fact, let me tell you all of the ways that Bangel wouldn't be boring because unlike Spike, Angel is not used to mindlessly following directions he has been a leader of his own for sometime and a champion and he and Buffy would have some amazingly fun battles in trying to figure out how to work that out.

The age old story is that Spuffy sells and that is why it is still happening. If this is really Joss Whedon out there, somewhere pulling the strings Spuffy will be destroyed like all of the other ships are because that is JW way. If he really is MIA, Spike and Buffy are going to continue to live in their happy little bubble. Yawn.
 
@dcai0830 , there was a super interesting thread earlier this year that went into the way there's not much difference between soulful Spike and soulless Spike as compared to Angel/Angelus. These are the bits that really got me:

This is part of the huge problem when it comes to 'iconic' characters. They are and have to stay pretty much the same. Otherwise they wouldn't be iconic. Just think of superhero outfits in comic books. Spike, for whatever reason, was deemed iconic by the networks at a certain point. That's why the hair and clothing couldn't be changed permanently. That's why the UPN insisted he wear the coat again because that would help ratings. It's why after getting a soul Spike's had to stay the same guy. There is nothing worse than being iconic, especially in a show like this where you have a mythology that makes a clear devide between soul and demon.

Back towards the later Seasons the internet discussions were really taking off and it was all Spike, all the time. So of course the networks (especially UPN) thought Spike is the only thing people cared about. Couple that with some writers/producers obsession with him and you have an iconic character in the making. Which then caused the huge problem with souled and soulles Spike. Spike couldn't be changed in look or character because networks and writers were convinced he's the only reason people were still watching (same reason WB insisted on Spike to renew Angel). And when even that didn't work and ratings slipped anyway, take it one step further and even get the exact same clothes on him again (the coat).

I'm going to give the comics some benefit of the doubt (it's only fair, considering how few of the issues I've read) and assume the writers, now unshackled from network demands for the iconic version of Spike, are actually changing him in ways that he should've been changed immediately after he got his soul. Lovely idea, but you can't just retcon the two seasons of same-y soulful Spike from the shows and make him into ideal boyfriend material without it being incredibly jarring. Especially when you don't also retcon away the kind of handwave-y treatment Buffy's trauma from what soulless Spike did to her got in S7. In so many ways, it seems like Spuffy tries to take all of the good while ignoring all of the bad.

In order for functional Buffy/Spike to ever be a believable possibility, soulful Spike NEEDS to be as different from soulless Spike as Angel is from Angelus, and Buffy NEEDS the opportunity to heal from S6 without feeling responsible for Spike's wellbeing. Buffy should be startled by the differences in soulful Spike but still wary of him until forced to admit that he's a separate person (who is one of soulless Spike's victims, in a way). She should absolutely not be merely exonerating him of soulless Spike's actions on principle while giving him credit for getting the soul, and then moving on like they have a blank slate.

(However, since I don't want functional Buffy/Spike to be a believable possibility...carry on.)
 
It seems healthy because they're pushing it that way, but everything that happened over the course of the show made it impossible for Spuffy to ever be healthy as long as the characters remained true to themselves.

If Joss or whoever running the story has decided that functional long-term relationships are finally allowed, and Spuffy is the one they're going with, then that's not an improvement. Particularly for the reasons @Kairos outlined. They are not stable relationship material because of who they are as people, and forcing them into one requires changing the characters beyond recognition.
My thoughts exactly. Which is why I was curious as to how they got there since I stopped reading. It seems to be engaging for the fans still following and I thought there might have been an interesting development, but I perhaps shipper goggles are just hard to take off...
 
@dcai0830 , there was a super interesting thread earlier this year that went into the way there's not much difference between soulful Spike and soulless Spike as compared to Angel/Angelus. These are the bits that really got me:





I'm going to give the comics some benefit of the doubt (it's only fair, considering how few of the issues I've read) and assume the writers, now unshackled from network demands for the iconic version of Spike, are actually changing him in ways that he should've been changed immediately after he got his soul. Lovely idea, but you can't just retcon the two seasons of same-y soulful Spike from the shows and make him into ideal boyfriend material without it being incredibly jarring. Especially when you don't also retcon away the kind of handwave-y treatment Buffy's trauma from what soulless Spike did to her got in S7. In so many ways, it seems like Spuffy tries to take all of the good while ignoring all of the bad.

In order for functional Buffy/Spike to ever be a believable possibility, soulful Spike NEEDS to be as different from soulless Spike as Angel is from Angelus, and Buffy NEEDS the opportunity to heal from S6 without feeling responsible for Spike's wellbeing. Buffy should be startled by the differences in soulful Spike but still wary of him until forced to admit that he's a separate person (who is one of soulless Spike's victims, in a way). She should absolutely not be merely exonerating him of soulless Spike's actions on principle while giving him credit for getting the soul, and then moving on like they have a blank slate.

(However, since I don't want functional Buffy/Spike to be a believable possibility...carry on.)

Do you mean the AR? If so, in fairness I don't think that soulless Spike's actions needed to be addressed that extensively, given that he didn't actually commit what he intended to. Yes, it should have been addressed a bit more from Buffy's POV, but I actually wouldn't want Buffy's story to be all about 'trauma' because, a)she stopped it, and therefore the impact is not the same as it would have been had it actually happened and b) Buffy is incredibly mentally strong and I would have been really depressing to watch her become a victim on top of everything she had already been through. I just needed to see anger and distrust, and a better exploration of all of S6 from her point of view.

soulful Spike NEEDS to be as different from soulless Spike as Angel is from Angelus, and Buffy NEEDS the opportunity to heal from S6 without feeling responsible for Spike's wellbeing.
I disagree with the first part of this, but agree with the second. I don't need Spike to have markedly different soulless/soulful selves like because that would mean his story is just a rehashing of Angel's (which, at some points it did feel close to becoming). I just need him to be different enough to be consistent with the metaphysical rules they'd established earlier and for there to be clearer moral distinctions between his actions (which is basically what you said in the rest of the paragraph🙂)
 
Do you mean the AR? If so, in fairness I don't think that soulless Spike's actions needed to be addressed that extensively, given that he didn't actually commit what he intended to. Yes, it should have been addressed a bit more from Buffy's POV, but I actually wouldn't want Buffy's story to be all about 'trauma' because, a)she stopped it, and therefore the impact is not the same as it would have been had it actually happened and b) Buffy is incredibly mentally strong and I would have been really depressing to watch her become a victim on top of everything she had already been through. I just needed to see anger and distrust, and a better exploration of all of S6 from her point of view.

The AR is a sore point in particular, but it's not the only horrible thing Spike ever did, even just to Buffy. The way she interacts with him in S7 is just weird. In "Lessons," before she even knows he has his soul, she isn't angry or horrified to see him, just kinda surprised, and she actually stands there and lets him touch her face. ??? Her reactions in "Beneath You" make way more sense, but shouldn't she have been pissed at him for pretending to be soulless and being super gross with her once she found out the truth? And then in "Him," she flinches when Spike grabs her arm, and then SHE apologizes. He's the one who should be apologizing, but I suppose that would require him to understand boundaries, which he clearly does not or he never would've come back to Sunnydale in the first place once he had his soul, let alone constantly mentioning his feelings for her. She also at least somewhat buys into the idea that he got his soul in penance for the attempted rape, and tries to persuade Dawn of that. (Um, no? He got his soul because he had finally gotten it through his head that she didn't love him, and he believed that was the only way he'd have a shot with her. It wasn't about penance, it was about entitlement, objectification, and being incapable of understanding what it truly means to have a soul.) Also, Buffy telling Spike he was useless unless he was being the version of himself who chainsmoked and strutted around in his murder trophy coat is insane.

I'm not saying I wanted Buffy to have a victimhood arc or something, I just don't like that Spike got one instead or that Buffy ever let him make her feel responsible for him. You're right that more anger and distrust would've ben better. There's a lot of unwarranted parallelism between the way she deals with Spike and the way she dealt with Angel in early S3, when she was secretly helping him recover. S3 Buffy should not have felt like Angel was a secret she needed to keep, and S7 Buffy should not have felt any obligation to Spike (because unlike Angel, she and Spike didn't have any positive history together, he's just the villain-turned obnoxious reluctant ally-turned creepy stalker-turned convenient object she used in a super dysfunctional attempt to cope with her crushing depression-turned attempted rapist). Spike seems to view Buffy as his savior or something, and I wish Buffy had set him straight instead of awkwardly going along with it to not hurt his feelings. She's too compassionate for her own good, but mostly only with Spike, not people who have legitimate reasons to rely on her, like the Potentials.

I disagree with the first part of this, but agree with the second. I don't need Spike to have markedly different soulless/soulful selves like because that would mean his story is just a rehashing of Angel's (which, at some points it did feel close to becoming). I just need him to be different enough to be consistent with the metaphysical rules they'd established earlier and for there to be clearer moral distinctions between his actions (which is basically what you said in the rest of the paragraph🙂)

Note that I only said those things were necessary for romantic Spuffy in S7 and beyond to make sense. 😛 I don't actually want that to happen. However, despite all that "iconic character" stuff, I do think that Spike (pre-comics) is a consistent character, just...not a particularly admirable one. I think that soulless and soulful Spike are similar for two reasons:

1) "Spike" is almost entirely a performance and defense mechanism against ridicule and rejection, and this performance can be done whether the soul is there or not. He wants to be perceived as this tough, snarky, punk who is immune to criticism, so that's what he pretends to be. I have no idea who he really is underneath that performance, except that this person has some pretty serious issues with women and struggles to accept responsibility for his own problems.

2) Because soulless Spike got the soul on purpose, his soul and demon naturally get along better than Angel's. The soul wasn't forced on the demon, and there's a kind of internal continuity. Neither Angel's soul nor his demon were prepared to be forced together, so they can never be reconciled to each other's existence. Thus, while Spike can maintain some of the same goals and many of the same preferences and attitudes as he did while soulless, Angel's personality skews farther away from that of Angelus than we might expect, having met the hedonistic Liam, and Angelus, when free of the soul, attempts to destroy everything that mattered to Angel.
 
The AR is a sore point in particular, but it's not the only horrible thing Spike ever did, even just to Buffy. The way she interacts with him in S7 is just weird. In "Lessons," before she even knows he has his soul, she isn't angry or horrified to see him, just kinda surprised, and she actually stands there and lets him touch her face. ??? Her reactions in "Beneath You" make way more sense, but shouldn't she have been pissed at him for pretending to be soulless and being super gross with her once she found out the truth? And then in "Him," she flinches when Spike grabs her arm, and then SHE apologizes. He's the one who should be apologizing, but I suppose that would require him to understand boundaries, which he clearly does not or he never would've come back to Sunnydale in the first place once he had his soul, let alone constantly mentioning his feelings for her. She also at least somewhat buys into the idea that he got his soul in penance for the attempted rape, and tries to persuade Dawn of that. (Um, no? He got his soul because he had finally gotten it through his head that she didn't love him, and he believed that was the only way he'd have a shot with her. It wasn't about penance, it was about entitlement, objectification, and being incapable of understanding what it truly means to have a soul.) Also, Buffy telling Spike he was useless unless he was being the version of himself who chainsmoked and strutted around in his murder trophy coat is insane.
Yup. S7 is a strange mess. Though admittedly my memories of it are vague as it's been years since I've watched it, my recollection of it is with a strangely detached feeling, like I'm a distant observer rather than being right there with Buffy. Like people have said before, I don't know who she is anymore. ((Another thing that bothers me is how Spike managed to get back to Sunnydale from the heart of Africa. He seems crazier than Angel was when he got his soul (Angel seemed more tormented than actually mad) and yet he managed to have enough lucid moments to track across the desert avoiding the sun, catch a ship to America, then travel across the country to the East Coast, all the while miraculously avoiding getting caught or staked by any number of demons/demon-hunters who would be dotted around the world.))

There's a lot of unwarranted parallelism between the way she deals with Spike and the way she dealt with Angel in early S3, when she was secretly helping him recover. S3 Buffy should not have felt like Angel was a secret she needed to keep, and S7 Buffy should not have felt any obligation to Spike
Sorry, by 'unwarranted' do you mean in terms of the writers deliberately trying to force a parallel between the two? I'd agree there. Buffy hiding Angel makes sense though. She knew he was 'better' but she didn't really know how much of her Angel is really there so she's still wary of him, not to mention traumatised. She also knows he won't be accepted by her friends. And he's unstable, so she's smart enough to keep him chained far far away from her friends. In S7 I can understand her wanting to be compassionate and I guess because of how she helped Angel it would be hypocritical not to, but she keeps him in her house, which is the really strange bit, all the while like you say, being unnecessarily cold to the potentials.

Note that I only said those things were necessary for romantic Spuffy in S7 and beyond to make sense
Ah, got that now. Sorry missed that bit. I agree with your points regarding the consistency between Spike's personalities, but I actually meant consistency in terms of how the show had previously established the fundamental limitations of the demon, like how its actions cannot be truly altruistic because it lacks a soul etc...basically it still bothers me how a degree of apparent selflessness or compassion was developed even though the character lacked the means to do so
 
The comics do the following: "Spike went out and got his soul for me" and also "Spike cannot be blamed for the things his demon did" this contradiction is my greatest annoyance of the ship of the writing of the continued relationship. IF and that is a BIG IF, the writers in Season 7 had not been so unabashedly disinterested in following their soul cannon and Spike's soul had returned to him and CHANGED him, the way Angelus/Angel are different, then I guess I could see how Buffy and Spike could go on to have this healthy relationship but he would be a brand new person and I would think he would have to fall in love with her all over again and she would have to get to know this new soul guy. Unfortunately the soul does little to change Spike, still dresses the same acts the same and yet she seems to believe all of his sins are wiped clean because he now has his soul. But who is really in control is up for debate. It is all very strange.

This is my biggest annoyance when it comes to how Spuffy was handled in s7. And it's still a thing in the comics. I should have appreciate them finally discussing the AR but it was ruined by Buffy being a complete idiot and contradicting herself that way. It was all very frustrating. Along with Angel's character assassination (twilight), this is the closest I've been to giving up the comics.
 
consistency in terms of how the show had previously established the fundamental limitations of the demon, like how its actions cannot be truly altruistic because it lacks a soul etc...basically it still bothers me how a degree of apparent selflessness or compassion was developed even though the character lacked the means to do so

Oh yeah, I'm totally on board with that one. I've written probably at least two grad school essays' worth of meta on souls in the Buffyverse, but it essentially boils down to this: to be soulless is to be irredeemably evil and selfish, always, and to be soulful is to have free will, and thus, to have the whole spectrum of morality open to you. When you're creating a fantasy world, the rules that govern all of the fantastical elements are like the laws of physics: immutable, and essential for maintaining internal consistency. These rules are also essential to us as audience members for making sense of such a strange world and finding meaning in it despite its strangeness. No character is worth breaking your universe for, which is why the Buffyverse's greatest strength, that it puts character above plot, can sometimes be a weakness. Either stick to the rules as established or reveal that those weren't really the rules and establish new ones, then deal with the implications of the change*. Don't just pretend the old rules never existed and that the changes are no big deal.

Where the Buffyverse writers (the ones who liked Spike, at least) ran into a problem with Spike is that you can't really keep a character for multiple seasons without giving them an arc, and yet a character who is stuck at the irredeemably evil/selfish end of the moral spectrum is, of necessity, static. Which is why characters like Spike (or Angelus or vamp Darla or Drusilla) are best served in small doses, so that their lack-of-change doesn't become boring.

However, I feel like the inconsistencies with soulless Spike's morality were only implied and not actually set in stone, so I choose to ignore them and stick to the rules, which means that everything Spike did without a soul that was objectively good or had positive results must have been done for selfish reasons. I've smoothed over a lot of frustrating problems with that as my headcanon. Spike's extreme romanticism, ridiculously subjective view of reality, and constant performing all fit into that quite nicely.

*They had a major opportunity if they wanted to change the rules for Spike while still maintaining internal consistency. The pieces were all there. The Scoobies could've discovered that no, soulless creatures are not automatically evil, that was just a convenient narrative the Council used to manipulate the Slayer. It could have introduced a lot of complexity and intrigue into the story. Buffy would've agonized over all of the potentially productive members of society she slew out of hand. We might've met a few reclusive vampires who've just been minding their own business and causing no harm. The Council could have turned out to be deeply corrupt, perhaps a parallel to W&H (or even an affiliate of them). But they didn't go there, so whatever.
 
My thoughts exactly. Which is why I was curious as to how they got there since I stopped reading. It seems to be engaging for the fans still following and I thought there might have been an interesting development, but I perhaps shipper goggles are just hard to take off...

Must be honest: I haven't read for a while myself. I'm going on what it was like when I gave up, and a few pages I've seen since then, in which it looks like nothing changed.

The comics do the following: "Spike went out and got his soul for me" and also "Spike cannot be blamed for the things his demon did" this contradiction is my greatest annoyance of the ship of the writing of the continued relationship.

This has been the major Spuffy thorn in my side for years, and maybe the biggest problem with the entire ship. I've lost the energy to take it up in a debate anymore, but I always like hearing someone from our side state it so distinctly.
 
This has been the major Spuffy thorn in my side for years, and maybe the biggest problem with the entire ship. I've lost the energy to take it up in a debate anymore, but I always like hearing someone from our side state it so distinctly.

I can imagine one gets weary of having the same arguments over and over again!
 
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