Season 6 is underrated

[katmobile]

You've come back wrong ,what sort of demon are you, Spikes words , he knew she was not the normal Buffy that she was not the Buffy he professed to love , he showed his love by mocking her in the morning after smashed,
Buffy used Spike as self harming because she was mentally ill , but it was Spike who still stalked her not seeking to help her , help with Dawn but just use her for sex , Balcony, outside her home, at her work for instance , she does not understand ? as she asked Why do I keep letting him in ?
Buffy is shown trying to fight her feeling's when she shows at Spikes door in Dead things and thanks the heavens when she hears the scream, Buffy life at this point was patrolling , fighting , money problems, working a job she disliked , a bitch of a sister, her depression and Spikes sexaul abuse no wonder a prison cell would seem to be a better choice
Buffy apologised after Riley's speech, Buffy apologised to Spike even calling his human bodies name of William she realised she had just been using him for self harming , she said sorry and when he said he did not mind, she told him it was killing her.....his answer was to try to rape her
At this point Spike is a demon so no blame can be put there , despite the writers not knowing to make him good or bad...
What I hate is they showed Buffy having sex with a animal..... a thing that has taken over a dead man's body
Why do I hate season 6 so to feed Noxon's ego , to feed Spuffy , they had to make SMG do thing she did not want to do things Sarah said buffy would not do , Noxon said at the end of S6 they knew Sarah would not sign on after her contract run out , recently Noxon has said they went to far Perhaps it was right not to carry on as S7 turned into the Spike show and the mostly criticized season
Without firefly , without S6 would we have got more Buffy ? and if so would it have been as good as the first 5 seasons , the workload on Sarah was enormous , she couldn't carry on have giving so much of her life to a tv show but I am sure there was ways if , Whedon had really wanted to lesson that load

If got nothing to say I haven't said before. His answer wasn't to rape her - it went through denial, threats, a misattribution to masochism, seeking a spell to make the feelings go away, trying to seek drunken solace with someone else and when she was upset by that to try and understand why she was when she ended things. The AR was a lack of understanding as to why she found him repellant and a desperate attempt to reverse it. When he realised he'd end hurting her otherwise he stopped and tried to change.

Sometimes a PTSD sufferer instantly reacts to a car backfiring as if it's gunfire. Maybe talk to someone who can help with trauma of the war rather than cursing the car owners might be more productive. The difference being you can avoid the car and not think about it if you don't choose to.

 

[DeadlyDuo]

You've come back wrong ,what sort of demon are you, Spikes words , he knew she was not the normal Buffy that she was not the Buffy he professed to love , he showed his love by mocking her in the morning after smashed,
Buffy used Spike as self harming because she was mentally ill , but it was Spike who still stalked her not seeking to help her , help with Dawn but just use her for sex , Balcony, outside her home, at her work for instance , she does not understand ? as she asked Why do I keep letting him in ?
Buffy is shown trying to fight her feeling's when she shows at Spikes door in Dead things and thanks the heavens when she hears the scream, Buffy life at this point was patrolling , fighting , money problems, working a job she disliked , a bitch of a sister, her depression and Spikes sexaul abuse no wonder a prison cell would seem to be a better choice
Buffy apologised after Riley's speech, Buffy apologised to Spike even calling his human bodies name of William she realised she had just been using him for self harming , she said sorry and when he said he did not mind, she told him it was killing her.....his answer was to try to rape her
At this point Spike is a demon so no blame can be put there , despite the writers not knowing to make him good or bad...
What I hate is they showed Buffy having sex with a animal..... a thing that has taken over a dead man's body
Why do I hate season 6 so to feed Noxon's ego , to feed Spuffy , they had to make SMG do thing she did not want to do things Sarah said buffy would not do , Noxon said at the end of S6 they knew Sarah would not sign on after her contract run out , recently Noxon has said they went to far Perhaps it was right not to carry on as S7 turned into the Spike show and the mostly criticized season
Without firefly , without S6 would we have got more Buffy ? and if so would it have been as good as the first 5 seasons , the workload on Sarah was enormous , she couldn't carry on have giving so much of her life to a tv show but I am sure there was ways if , Whedon had really wanted to lesson that load

Buffy was the one who initiated the sex with Spike in Smashed. In Gone, Buffy goes to his crypt for sex. SHE is the one touching Spike up when he is trying to lie to Xander who is stood right there, because Buffy wants the relationship kept a secret. Buffy is touching Spike up because she can't be seen. Buffy FEARS being judged negatively by the Scoobies (a fear that is well founded considering Xander's reaction to Anya sleeping with Spike) that is why she's so conflicted over sleeping with Spike. She goes to him because it makes her feel better for a little while, it is when she RETURNS to the scoobies that she starts feeling disgusted with herself over her relationship with Spike.

As much as I dislike the Spuffy relationship, it is unfair to blame Spike for all the issues within it. Buffy is just as much to blame.

 

[thrasherpix]

Going by Season 5, Xander could've handled Spuffy (up until the AR). Surprisingly it was Tara who freaked out the most, though she remained supportive.

Xander's reaction to Spanya was more a crime of passion than intolerance. It can't even be simple jealousy since he never treated Angel that way. Once Buffy stopped him, Xander was still reeling with pain and just hurt everyone around him as best he could, which he apologized for later (at least to Buffy).

 

[DeadlyDuo]

Going by Season 5, Xander could've handled Spuffy (up until the AR). Surprisingly it was Tara who freaked out the most, though she remained supportive.

Xander's reaction to Spanya was more a crime of passion than intolerance. It can't even be simple jealousy since he never treated Angel that way. Once Buffy stopped him, Xander was still reeling with pain and just hurt everyone around him as best he could, which he apologized for later (at least to Buffy).

Problem is that Xander had no right to act the way he did, especially telling Anya she "disgusts him". HE was the one who jilted her at the altar.

 

[Bop]

Buffy being with Spike was a form of self harm, it was a lot more than Buffy just being afraid of what her friends would think- she really wouldn't care that much what they thought as she eventually admits. That whole thing is Spike's narrative and it's false. After normal again Buffy says something like "I just tried to kill my friends last week and look how much they hate me" - ergo Buffy knows that they wouldn't judge her that much for sleeping with Spike. Buffy is unhappy being with Spike because being with Spike goes against who Buffy is as a person and her morals.

 

[thrasherpix]

Problem is that Xander had no right to act the way he did, especially telling Anya she "disgusts him". HE was the one who jilted her at the altar.

Irrelevant. I said Xander wouldn't care much (up until Spanya). In the moment he found out he was not his normal self.

Not that I disagree with you that Xander was out of line (and glad he apologized to Buffy at least), just saying it's irrelevant, because before that point Xander's reaction should be about what we saw in season 5 which was very different than at the moment he actually found out which is when he was in a state of mind not normal to him.

Furthermore, he was the most supportive in season 7, about the only one to back her supporting Buffy while the rest did not. Sure, he brought up the AR, but he even let Spike stay at his home and refused to join the others in "intervention time" on Buffy (which was what it was shaping up to be).

You can't say that because Xander freaked and acted horribly when he found out that he would've done the same at any other time. (Well you can, but I'd disagree, and the show doesn't bear it out.)

 

[Dora]

Buffy was the one who initiated the sex with Spike in Smashed. In Gone, Buffy goes to his crypt for sex. SHE is the one touching Spike up when he is trying to lie to Xander who is stood right there, because Buffy wants the relationship kept a secret. Buffy is touching Spike up because she can't be seen. Buffy FEARS being judged negatively by the Scoobies (a fear that is well founded considering Xander's reaction to Anya sleeping with Spike) that is why she's so conflicted over sleeping with Spike. She goes to him because it makes her feel better for a little while, it is when she RETURNS to the scoobies that she starts feeling disgusted with herself over her relationship with Spike.

As much as I dislike the Spuffy relationship, it is unfair to blame Spike for all the issues within it. Buffy is just as much to blame.

Buffy initiated the sex in Smashed really , it was Spike ,Spike was the one pursuing Buffy , it was Spike who's sexau;l fanfasy had both Harmony and the Bot start the fight that ended in sex , it was Spike that was stalking Buffy , it was Spike who mocked Buffy telling she had come back wrong asking what type of demon was she , it was Spike that knew Buffy was very vulnerable with Giles leaving , remember Xander turned Buffy down when he knew it was wrong, Spike did the opposite
Never understand people judging Buffy in gone Spike can just say no and he is thrusting into Buffy when xander arrives
Of coarse Buffy kept the abuse she is suffering from Spike secret, people being abuse do that , they have no idea why they let it happen , no idea why they do not stop it , it happens and keeps on happening until it is found out ie Riley , or they tell someone ie Tara Buffy says why do I let him do those things to me....simple she is mentally ill and Spike takes advantage of that

 

[TriBel]

Buffy initiated the sex in Smashed really

Yes...really. Some women do this. 😱

 

[Name the Stars]

Yes...really. Some women do this. 😱

It's crazy, huh? Us women are strange creatures that way...

 

[DeadlyDuo]

Buffy initiated the sex in Smashed really ,

She was the one that kissed him then unzipped him then started riding him. In Gone she was the one touching him up when Xander was right there because she couldn't be seen. She was also the one that then gave Spike a blowjob.

Buffy made bad choices during Season 6 but she CHOSE to make those choices. I don't know why you are so keen to take away Buffy's agency. She played her part in Spuffy, it is NOT a case of big bad Spike and poor little Buffy. BOTH of them were at fault.

 

[katmobile]

It's crazy, huh? Us women are strange creatures that way...

It's not a matter of us women it's a matter of one woman with a lot of issues. Her head was a mess at that point unfortunately that lead her to getting involved with someone who was a mess and they inflicted a lot of damage on each other but were able to recover and help each other. That's my reading. I think there was blame on both sides but neither really excuses what the other did but explains it. I'm reading what I'm presented with as objectively as I can. I realise for some that isn't possible but I just want people to acknowledge their own biases and stop doing false equivalence.

 

[Dora]

It's not a matter of us women it's a matter of one woman with a lot of issues. Her head was a mess at that point unfortunately that lead her to getting involved with someone who was a mess and they inflicted a lot of damage on each other but were able to recover and help each other. That's my reading. I think there was blame on both sides but neither really excuses what the other did but explains it. I'm reading what I'm presented with as objectively as I can. I realise for some that isn't possible but I just want people to acknowledge their own biases and stop doing false equivalence.

Firstly Spike is not a someone , he is a mass murdering evil demon , people mus stop getting spike the demon and William mixed up , William was murdered and a Demon took his body, why anyone would hate any person ( especially Buffy ) so much they would want them to be with a Demon/ animal is beyond my comprehension
If we take it Spike into human realms as you seem to want to , so you think it is completely correct that one person has sex with another, stalks and takes advantage sexually of the another, knowingly there have come back wrong, knowing they have mental issues that surely is abuse and when the other breaks it off,it is acceptable to try to force the other one to have sex again....you have no problem that because the mentally ill person made the first sexual contact

 

[katmobile]

Firstly Spike is not a someone , he is a mass murdering evil demon , people mus stop getting spike the demon and William mixed up , William was murdered and a Demon took his body, why anyone would hate any person ( especially Buffy ) so much they would want them to be with a Demon/ animal is beyond my comprehension
If we take it Spike into human realms as you seem to want to , so you think it is completely correct that one person has sex with another, stalks and takes advantage sexually of the another, knowingly there have come back wrong, knowing they have mental issues that surely is abuse and when the other breaks it off,it is acceptable to try to force the other one to have sex again....you have no problem that because the mentally ill person made the first sexual contact

Firstly your interpretation of lore of the demon took over the body and the person is gone is deeply simplistic and contradicted by Gunn's sister who wanted to turn her brother out of twisted altruism towards him. The watchers don't know everything and Gunn's situation shows that they have good reasons for making things that simple i.e. because you will probably have to stake someone you know.

Secondly no the scenario as you present it is wrong but that entity's understanding of the other is limited he doesn't get why it's destroying her. He probably thinks he's helping maybe temporarily he sort of is even if it's a temporary fix. Also you want to play that game - using someone else just to feel when you know they have feelings for you no matter how twisted, trying to have sex with them when they tell you to leave, beating them to a pulp while calling them disgusting. Initiating both sex and violence and both at the same time. That's pretty abusive too and wrong and while it doesn't excuse Spike's actions. Buffy does admit she was not blameless.

They were both sick and both abusive because of it. It's a toxic relationship but it's not a mirror of a real life one. Similarities are not the same Buffy is not you. In the immortal words of the late and sadly missed Chris 'hate if you want to hate, if it keeps you safe, if it makes you brave.... Don't come over here, piss on my gate, save it, just keep it off my wave'. Seriously if you hate this so much why do you engage with it? Why keep opening your own wounds?

You do not have the right to judge or demand others see things as you do. Art is subjective like that.

 

[TriBel]

@Dora
You're sanctifying her. Her judgement may have been "impaired" but she knew what she was doing. She knew it was "wrong" but she chose to do it. She stopped but she could have stopped sooner. She initiated the first (second) kiss and the sex. She sought him out. She could have sought medical help but instead she sought Spike. Even after the relationship ended, she admitted to jealousy (twice). No-one said what happened in SR was acceptable. The main thrust of the argument is, she's a woman with autonomy. She's not Mother Teresa.

 

[RachM]

Buffy made bad choices during Season 6 but she CHOSE to make those choices. I don't know why you are so keen to take away Buffy's agency. She played her part in Spuffy, it is NOT a case of big bad Spike and poor little Buffy. BOTH of them were at fault.

Not really.

Buffy made choices in Season 6, yes, and no one forced her to start sleeping with Spike. But trying to place the blame on both of them equally is not only a bit victim-blamey, it undermines the emotional manipulation and abuse Spike put her through. Buffy wasn't exactly in a stable state of mind in Season 6, being deeply depressed and suffering from PTSD, and Spike took advantage this. He constantly tried to isolate her from her friends by telling her she came back "wrong" and belonged "in the dark" with him, which compounded her depression and her feelings of being disconnected. He constantly touched her without her consent and pushed her sexual boundaries. He made her feel degraded and dirty and like she couldn't turn to anyone.

Her breakdown in Dead Things clearly shows how badly Spike's mental abuse is affecting her and how she views sex with Spike as some sort of punishment. Their relationship in Season 6 is very much an abusive one, with Spike as the abuser.

Abusive relationships are rarely Black & White, a lot of the time victims will initiate sex or physical contact with their abusers, either from shame, fear or the desire to take back control. But that doesn't mean that they are at fault within the relationship, it means that they are mentally unable to make good choices, and therefore fall into a cycle in which they return to their abusers. Buffy is very much this way in Season 6, but she is still a victim. So while it's maybe not quite as extreme as "Big Bad Spike and Poor Little Buffy" it is definitely a case of Spike as the abuser and Buffy as the abused.

 

[katmobile]

Not really.

Buffy made choices in Season 6, yes, and no one forced her to start sleeping with Spike. But trying to place the blame on both of them equally is not only a bit victim-blamey, it undermines the emotional manipulation and abuse Spike put her through. Buffy wasn't exactly in a stable state of mind in Season 6, being deeply depressed and suffering from PTSD, and Spike took advantage this. He constantly tried to isolate her from her friends by telling her she came back "wrong" and belonged "in the dark" with him, which compounded her depression and her feelings of being disconnected. He constantly touched her without her consent and pushed her sexual boundaries. He made her feel degraded and dirty and like she couldn't turn to anyone.

Her breakdown in Dead Things clearly shows how badly Spike's mental abuse is affecting her and how she views sex with Spike as some sort of punishment. Their relationship in Season 6 is very much an abusive one, with Spike as the abuser.

Abusive relationships are rarely Black & White, a lot of the time victims will initiate sex or physical contact with their abusers, either from shame, fear or the desire to take back control. But that doesn't mean that they are at fault within the relationship, it means that they are mentally unable to make good choices, and therefore fall into a cycle in which they return to their abusers. Buffy is very much this way in Season 6, but she is still a victim. So while it's maybe not quite as extreme as "Big Bad Spike and Poor Little Buffy" it is definitely a case of Spike as the abuser and Buffy as the abused.

I like to know what you're credentials are on this. Buffy intiated both the kissing and the sex the first time for both. I can't imagine many people do that with their stalkers. Do many abusive victims beat their so-called abuser to the extent they can't stand? The verbal abuse doesn't go one way either Buffy tells Spike he's 'convenience', that he's disgusting that they're isn't one good thing about him. She doesn't see sleeping with him as punishment or at least that's not why she's doing it- it's self abuse in a different way the way some people suffering from depression cut themselves - the point is to feel something. Deep depression isn't feeling shitty it's feeling nothing.

 

[RachM]

I like to know what you're credentials are on this. Buffy intiated both the kissing and the sex the first time for both. I can't imagine many people do that with their stalkers. Do many abusive victims beat their so-called abuser to the extent they can't stand?

I lived through a violently abusive relationship for three years. I also initiated the relationship by kissing him for the first time, and I'm pretty sure I also initiated sex the first time we had it. Does that now mean that I wasn't abused? That the violence and emotional abuse he put me through doesn't count, because hey, I started it!

Who initiated what has nothing to do with anything. Just because Buffy initiated a physical relationship, that doesn't mean that Spike had the right to continually touch her without her consent after that (which he frequently did).

While my history with abuse doesn't make me an expert on the matter by any means, it does mean that I recognise abusive patterns in fictional relationships, often because they trigger me. It also means that I have a certain understanding on the mind-frame of abuse victims.

If I had had the strength, I would have beaten my "so-called" abuser within an inch of his life for what he put me through.

Also, telling Spike he's "convenient" is hardly abuse. She isn't trying to isolate him, she isn't trying to degrade him. Spike isn't suffering debilitating mental illness during the relationship. They aren't on equal ground during Season 6 and Buffy is clearly victimized by Spike throughout the entire season.

 

[katmobile]

I lived through a violently abusive relationship for three years. I also initiated the relationship by kissing him for the first time, and I'm pretty sure I also initiated sex the first time we had it. Does that now mean that I wasn't abused? That the violence and emotional abuse he put me through doesn't count, because hey, I started it!

Who initiated what has nothing to do with anything. Just because Buffy initiated a physical relationship, that doesn't mean that Spike had the right to continually touch her without her consent after that (which he frequently did).

While my history with abuse doesn't make me an expert on the matter by any means, it does mean that I recognise abusive patterns in fictional relationships, often because they trigger me. It also means that I have a certain understanding on the mind-frame of abuse victims.

If I had had the strength, I would have beaten my "so-called" abuser within an inch of his life for what he put me through.

Also, telling Spike he's "convenient" is hardly abuse. She isn't trying to isolate him, she isn't trying to degrade him. Spike isn't suffering debilitating mental illness during the relationship. They aren't on equal ground during Season 6 and Buffy is clearly victimized by Spike throughout the entire season.

Ok I accept that but I do know of two abuse victims who accept that the abuse went both ways - well one who did and one who accepts he changed and can still appreciate the relationship beyond that point. Thank you for sharing and I'm beyond sorry you had to endure that.

 

[Honoria Dedlock]

I lived through a violently abusive relationship for three years. I also initiated the relationship by kissing him for the first time, and I'm pretty sure I also initiated sex the first time we had it. Does that now mean that I wasn't abused? That the violence and emotional abuse he put me through doesn't count, because hey, I started it!

Who initiated what has nothing to do with anything. Just because Buffy initiated a physical relationship, that doesn't mean that Spike had the right to continually touch her without her consent after that (which he frequently did).

While my history with abuse doesn't make me an expert on the matter by any means, it does mean that I recognise abusive patterns in fictional relationships, often because they trigger me. It also means that I have a certain understanding on the mind-frame of abuse victims.

If I had had the strength, I would have beaten my "so-called" abuser within an inch of his life for what he put me through.

Also, telling Spike he's "convenient" is hardly abuse. She isn't trying to isolate him, she isn't trying to degrade him. Spike isn't suffering debilitating mental illness during the relationship. They aren't on equal ground during Season 6 and Buffy is clearly victimized by Spike throughout the entire season.

I am sorry to hear about your abuse story, but I have to disagree with your posts re Buffy...as the slayer she was physically stronger than spike and she beat him to a bloody pulp in what eerily looked like a domestic situation...I felt uncomfortable watching it. Spike mentally abused Buffy but she definitely was a co-abuser. The lesser of two evils but she doesn't deserve to get off Scott free for using her strength to degrade someone.

Of courses this is only in the context of their relationship in season 6. Spike was a killer, threatened Willow with a broken bottle etc he was a monster. Same with the rape in SR.

 

[TriBel]

why anyone would hate any person ( especially Buffy ) so much they would want them to be with a Demon/ animal is beyond my comprehension

There's really no accounting for taste. I don't care whether people hate me or not - when The Devil's as ripped as this, I'm hell-bound!

Joking aside and stating the obvious, Buffy is no more a person than Spike. They're both actors playing a role and because this is a production and not real life everything we see and hear on screen matters. Personally, I'm not overfond of S6 precisely because it triggers some people.

However, S6 is not just about Buffy and Spike's relationship. For me, at its heart, it's posing the question "What is a woman?" How can a woman have autonomy when she's defined in and by patriarchy? What's the difference between "good girls" and "bad girls"? How much choice do women have? How much control do they have over their bodies and what they do with them? Are they allowed to enjoy their bodies? At what point do they slip from feminine into monstrous feminine? This is why, for better or worse, I think we need to acknowledge Buffy's choices and read her arc alongside other arcs. The question "What is a women...what is it that women want?" has been bothering philosophers for years. I think Noxon's brave to take it on.