Season 6 is underrated

[WillowFromBuffy]

Let's not forget he just been accused by Buffy of spying on him which even she admitted she didn't believe but because "the great Xander thinks so, shudder gasp it must be true"

He used to spy on her. He stood outside her house for hours, watching her room, while she had sex with Riley, he stole personal items, he showed up unannounced inside her bedroom. There is ample precedence.

 

[Cheese Slices]

Spiral where he says he should've instead nicked a porchse big enough for only him, Dawn and Buffy (leaving the Scoobies to perish at the hands of Glory

Oh yeah at the end of the day, all that matters to him is Buffy and Dawn. I don't think anyone is arguing that he secretely cares that much about the others.

he also explicitly tells Xander and Willow that Joyce "was the only one of the lot of you I could stand."

He says this after Xander yells at him for supposedly doing this "to get in Buffy's pants", when we know he truly cared for Joyce. I'd be pissed too honestly.

Bargaining I when he seemed to gain some pleasure in allowing Giles to believe he was leaving him to be strangled to death ("you could've let me in on your plan whilst he throttled me")

I'd call this a rather radical interpretation of the text. I see where you're coming from, but I'm not sure I can agree with you.

Most of my examples were indeed from S4 but it was my intention to demonstrate that when first chipped, Spike was given the opportunity on multiple occasions to assimilate into the gang. However, Spike repeatedly rebuffed those chances and very consistently made it clear he had no interest in being friendly with the Scoobies and rejected their kindness on multiple occasions

That's why I find the Spike/Scooby dynamic so interesting, and tragic in a way. They gave him plenty of chances when he wasn't ready to take them, and he was finally ready to be part of the group to some extent, they shut him out. It's frustrating, but kind of great.

 

[Dora]

It also ignores the fact SMG originally pushed for getting Spike and Buffy together. She just didn't like how it was done. Besides which working 16 hour days for 7 years straight with a creative team that was clearly burnt out by the end while wanting to pursue a Movie career all would've had been bigger issues than what fictional relationship her fictional character was in.

Dora blames Marti a lot and many fans blamed her for anything they didn't like back in the day. They do that because in there minds Joss is God so they aren't going to blame him. Nothing repeat nothing got on screen without Joss Whedons say so. Even if he wasn't on set much during S6 (and he was back for S7) he still went through all the scripts and inserted or changed things he didn't like.
To be honest it was always shameful on Joss to let others carry the blame and not stand up more for his writers back in the day. He's very passive aggressive in how he does things which I'm not a fan off.

I don't hold with this and Whedon is no god of mine , any information I report on comets generally from interviews
We know Whedon does not tell the truth on many things , like he was in control of S6, Firstly quotes from
Sarah talking about S6 , I had to talked down from the ledge several times , Joss was never in his office , you cannot hold a conversation with josh when he just yells at you , That S6 was a betrayal of where Buffy had started
Martin Noxon S6 , The day Sarah came to me and told me she had lost the Character of Buffy completely , was the same day Joss arrived and said Buffy been gone to long,........ I had way more input over S6 some real muscular influence on direction.I was very vocal about Buffy making bad choices,young women especially trouble or haunted sometimes make bad mistakes especially in the area of romance .there were parts of S6 i feel we went to far Buffy felt sadistic beyond bad choices irresponsible for the character....that may have to do with my own history , S6 was meant to be about adulthood we found that boring and decided to go with the nasty sex instead
Joss had issues with Sarah he said she did not give him enough credit for what he had done for her
Freddie said Sarah would not be back after her contract run out because of all the nonsense she had to put up with and people ego's

No I hold both Whedsdon and Noxon equally responsible for the horrid crap that was in S6

 

[Btvs fan]

There's definitely moments in S5 where Spike shows a softer side to some of the Scoobies but then there's also moments where he reminds them, publicly, that he's not interested in them. Like in Family where he reminds them "I don't care what happens" or Spiral where he says he should've instead nicked a porchse big enough for only him, Dawn and Buffy (leaving the Scoobies to perish at the hands of Glory). In Forever he also explicitly tells Xander and Willow that Joyce "was the only one of the lot of you I could stand." I agree with you that Spike feels wronged by the Scoobies in S6 for keeping their resurrection plans a secret and that's justified IMO as it would feel like a betrayal. However, even when he worked alongside them his inherent nature still caused an underlying tension in that alliance as we saw in Bargaining I when he seemed to gain some pleasure in allowing Giles to believe he was leaving him to be strangled to death ("you could've let me in on your plan whilst he throttled me").

Most of my examples were indeed from S4 but it was my intention to demonstrate that when first chipped, Spike was given the opportunity on multiple occasions to assimilate into the gang. However, Spike repeatedly rebuffed those chances and very consistently made it clear he had no interest in being friendly with the Scoobies and rejected their kindness on multiple occasions. That did set a precedent for how their relationship would continue from thereon out. That and having tried to kill them multiple times as well, of course.



I suggested no such thing. You claimed that Spike gets along with people who are nice to him. I was proving that, that's an oversimplification and simply not the case.

Spike said that in Family but then helped out Tara proving she is human when there was need for him. Which shows he did care

 

[vampmogs]

He says this after Xander yells at him for supposedly doing this "to get in Buffy's pants", when we know he truly cared for Joyce. I'd be pissed too honestly.

If it were a one off incident I could just chalk it up to Spike being upset. However, Spike has consistently made these comments about the Scoobies throughout S4-S6 so his disdain for them is well-documented.

I completely understand why Spike would be upset by Xander's accusations in Forever. From his POV, of course it would be enraging that he sincerely intended to pay his respects and Xander wouldn't let him. But I also don't blame Xander whatsoever of being sceptical of Spike's intentions given Spike's recent behaviour (Crush etc).

I'd call this a rather radical interpretation of the text. I see where you're coming from, but I'm not sure I can agree with you.

I don't think it's all that radical. I mean, as Giles says, he could've let him in on the plan. Instead he lets Giles call out for him in confusion and horror ("Spike... Spike?!") which was unnecessary and served no purpose. That, alongside his smirk at the biker demons terrorising the woman in her home ("It looks like fun"), demonstrated that even at soulless Spike's best (which was the summer between S5-S6 IMO) his nature was still simmering under the surface. It's why the soul was so necessary.

That's why I find the Spike/Scooby dynamic so interesting, and tragic in a way. They gave him plenty of chances when he wasn't ready to take them, and he was finally ready to be part of the group to some extent, they shut him out. It's frustrating, but kind of great.

I guess I just don't think they really shut him out. As I said in my original post, he was invited to Buffy's birthday party, he was invited to Xander's wedding, it became quite common practice for Buffy to patrol with Spike no questions asked (All the Way) etc. I can't think of many examples of Spike trying to assimilate with the Scoobies and them giving him the cold shoulder. He seemed utterly uninterested in engaging with them throughout S6 and very much tried to isolate Buffy from them and be just with him "in the dark." He did feel betrayed by them in Afterlife and I do think that's justified, but they only "shut him out" as much as they shut Giles and Dawn out too. It wasn't Spike-specific, it was Willow keeping out anyone who she'd believe would further complicate the resurrection issue (as Spike says himself).

 

[Cheese Slices]

If it were a one off incident I could just chalk it up to Spike being upset. However, Spike has consistently made these comments about the Scoobies throughout S4-S6 so his disdain for them is well-documented.

Maybe I have a very selective memory, but the ones I can remember post S4/OOMM are explicitely responding to an irritating assumption about him or a general frustration. I could be forgetting stuff, though. And again, I don't think he secretly wants to be bffs with them or anything.

I also don't blame Xander whatsoever of being sceptical of Spike's intentions given Spike's recent behaviour

Oh, don't get me wrong, I completely understand Xander is this instance, and he's making a fair enough assumption. This scene is an example of very good writing, imo : you know and understand everyone's pov even if they're at odds.

I mean, as Giles says, he could've let him in on the plan.

I'm not sure how that would work. "Hey Giles, I'm totally going to light this vampire on fire, don't worry !!". That would kind of give said vampire a clue.

I guess I just don't think they really shut him out

During their relationship, Buffy isolated herself from her friends by going to him, and since Spike is all about Buffy, he has no reason to go to them indeed. It's not so much they shut him out but rather that they had no occasion to have any contact at all. After though ? I think Normal Again shows them shutting him out pretty clearly, in the opening scene where Xander makes it clear that he is not part of the team, and later when they use him for muscle. Strangely enough, Buffy was his connection to them, and after she distances herself from him, they follow through without second thoughts. Although now that I think of him, Xander is pretty much the active agent in this; Willow is pretty much passive and neutral.

 

[DeadlyDuo]

I think the reason why Spike tends to get a lot of sympathy from the audience (even on occasions where he shouldn't get as much as he does) is because he comes across as the underdog. The scoobies are a strongly bonded group, but in a way it could also make it look like they are ganging up on him. Xander tends to get a lot of hate but he also is the one that's most negative towards Spike.

 

[WillowFromBuffy]

I think the reason why Spike tends to get a lot of sympathy from the audience (even on occasions where he shouldn't get as much as he does) is because he comes across as the underdog. The scoobies are a strongly bonded group, but in a way it could also make it look like they are ganging up on him. Xander tends to get a lot of hate but he also is the one that's most negative towards Spike.

I think that is also why people say Spike changes in S6, because he now seems more loathsome and less sympathetic. He hasn't changed. He just has more power now. Ever since "Innocence" he has almost always been at the receiving end. In S5, his antics seem harmless. But in S6, he is able to cause Buffy both mental and physical harms.

 

[Cheese Slices]

I think that is also why people say Spike changes in S6, because he now seems more loathsome and less sympathetic. He hasn't changed. He just has more power now. Ever since "Innocence" he has almost always been at the receiving end. In S5, his antics seem harmless. But in S6, he is able to cause Buffy both mental and physical harms.

It's interesting, because I always see him at his most powerless in S6. He is quite literally being treated as an object throughout most of it. To me he has very little "objective" power, and the few times he dominates Buffy is because she surrenders her power, not because he takes it from her ; and that's exactly why Seeing Red is such a shocking moment : because for the first time in a long while, he tries to gain the upper hand, but she doesn't relinquish her power.

ETA : that said, I completely see the other perspective(s) on this. I don't think it's a very clear cut situation all around.

 

[WillowFromBuffy]

It's interesting, because I always see him at his most powerless in S6. He is quite literally being treated as an object throughout most of it. To me he has very little "objective" power, and the few times he dominates Buffy is because she surrenders her power, not because he takes it from her ; and that's exactly why Seeing Red is such a shocking moment : because for the first time in a long while, he tries to gain the upper hand, but she doesn't relinquish her power.

ETA : that said, I completely see the other perspective(s) on this. I don't think it's a very clear cut situation all around.

Maybe he doesn't have all that much power, least not of himself, but in S6, his actions towards Buffy have an affect on her that they didn't in previous seasons. He is no longer just a nuisance to her.

 

[Cheese Slices]

Maybe he doesn't have all that much power, least not of himself, but in S6, his actions towards Buffy have an affect on her that they didn't in previous seasons. He is no longer just a nuisance to her.

I'll amend a little what I said earlier : I think he potientially does have some power, because Buffy does relinquish a lot of her control during S6; but he does very little with that power. Buffy's state of mind may mean she has very little control and power over herself, but she is calling the shots the vast majority of the time in her rapport with Spike, especially emotionally.
I do agree with you that his behaviour has an effect on Buffy though, and that he ends up hurting her whether he wants it or not. I just tend to go more towards the misguided but genuine side (because, lack of true moral compass), than the wilful, malicious, I-want-to-make-her-crawl interpretation.

 

[vampmogs]

I'm not sure how that would work. "Hey Giles, I'm totally going to light this vampire on fire, don't worry !!". That would kind of give said vampire a clue.

Spike had already lit the vampire on fire by the time Giles was gasping and pleading for his help. Spike could've easily given Giles a reassuring nod or a gesture to his lighter to indicate what he'd done. The vampire wasn't even facing him, and again, he'd already set his clothes on fire anyway. Instead, he casually lights a cigarette, feigns disinterest, and allows Giles to momentarily believe he's going to stand there idly and watch him die as Giles pleads for his help (Willow too - "What are you doing!? Help him!"). Spike then mocks and makes light of Giles straight after ("Oh poor Watcher. Did your life flash before your eyes?") which at best shows a disconcerting callousness and at worse some amusement in Giles' terror. None of that was necessary. He obviously got some kind of satisfaction out of allowing Giles to believe he was letting him die otherwise, what was the point?

I don't this is a radical interpretation. As I said previously, in the same two-parter Spike is smirking from ear to ear as he watches the biker gang break into a woman's house and you hear her shrieking in terror. Dawn glares at him disapprovingly as Spike admits "it looks like fun" so we already know it's still in his nature to get pleasure out of human terror. That's consistent with Spike's earlier behaviour with Giles.

Put this another way, imagine if it had been Buffy and Giles on patrol instead of Spike and Giles. The large vampire is throttling Giles and Buffy is unable to get him off Giles but she's secretly lit the vampire on fire. Giles is pleading and gasping "Buffy! Buffy!" Now, can you honestly tell me Buffy would allow Giles to believe she's ignoring him, turn her back to him, I don't know, check her finger nails, roll her eyes, or twirl her hair, and feign disinterest as Giles believes he's about to die? No way. It'd be entirely unnecessary and cruel and completely OOC.

 

[Twinkie]

I don't hate this season, hates a strong word. I did enjoy some of it but I just felt numb through most of it season and by the end I just felt done.

 

[Btvs fan]

Spike had already lit the vampire on fire by the time Giles was gasping and pleading for his help. Spike could've easily given Giles a reassuring nod or a gesture to his lighter to indicate what he'd done. The vampire wasn't even facing him, and again, he'd already set his clothes on fire anyway. Instead, he casually lights a cigarette, feigns disinterest, and allows Giles to momentarily believe he's going to stand there idly and watch him die as Giles pleads for his help (Willow too - "What are you doing!? Help him!"). Spike then mocks and makes light of Giles straight after ("Oh poor Watcher. Did your life flash before your eyes?") which at best shows a disconcerting callousness and at worse some amusement in Giles' terror. None of that was necessary. He obviously got some kind of satisfaction out of allowing Giles to believe he was letting him die otherwise, what was the point?

I don't this is a radical interpretation. As I said previously, in the same two-parter Spike is smirking from ear to ear as he watches the biker gang break into a woman's house and you hear her shrieking in terror. Dawn glares at him disapprovingly as Spike admits "it looks like fun" so we already know it's still in his nature to get pleasure out of human terror. That's consistent with Spike's earlier behaviour with Giles.

Put this another way, imagine if it had been Buffy and Giles on patrol instead of Spike and Giles. The large vampire is throttling Giles and Buffy is unable to get him off Giles but she's secretly lit the vampire on fire. Giles is pleading and gasping "Buffy! Buffy!" Now, can you honestly tell me Buffy would allow Giles to believe she's ignoring him, turn her back to him, I don't know, check her finger nails, roll her eyes, or twirl her hair, and feign disinterest as Giles believes he's about to die? No way. It'd be entirely unnecessary and cruel and completely OOC.

She might if it was Faith, depends on the character. As shown in Dirty Girls she could've easily stepped in and explained the perfectly understandable misunderstanding between Faith and Spike. Instead she just punches her and insincerely says "I'm sorry Faith I didn't realise it was you" with a big smirk on her face. So she clearly got pleasure from hurting Faith.


Everyone goes on about Spike but for me the big issue was Willow. Changing her storyline from being the instigator, with her insecurities driving her lust for power, to the passive, a magic is drug victim who has no control was awful. What was even worse was that a lesbian metaphor got changed into a drug metaphor yikes 😕

And Willows twice mind rape of Tara was never acknowledged. Even though Tara specifically told her not too, she still did it. Yet its never brought up again. That was the worst thing this season imo

 

[vampmogs]

She might if it was Faith, depends on the character. As shown in Dirty Girls she could've easily stepped in and explained the perfectly understandable misunderstanding between Faith and Spike. Instead she just punches her and insincerely says "I'm sorry Faith I didn't realise it was you" with a big smirk on her face. So she clearly got pleasure from hurting Faith.

She punched Faith in the face. Petty? Yes. But it's hardly the same thing as had she stood by watching Faith, literally, gag and gasp for her life, pleading for her help, and Buffy deliberately giving her the impression she was going to stand idly by and watch her die.

There's no comparison.

 

[Cheese Slices]

Spike had already lit the vampire on fire by the time Giles was gasping and pleading for his help. Spike could've easily given Giles a reassuring nod or a gesture to his lighter to indicate what he'd done. The vampire wasn't even facing him, and again, he'd already set his clothes on fire anyway. Instead, he casually lights a cigarette, feigns disinterest, and allows Giles to momentarily believe he's going to stand there idly and watch him die as Giles pleads for his help (Willow too - "What are you doing!? Help him!"). Spike then mocks and makes light of Giles straight after ("Oh poor Watcher. Did your life flash before your eyes?") which at best shows a disconcerting callousness and at worse some amusement in Giles' terror. None of that was necessary. He obviously got some kind of satisfaction out of allowing Giles to believe he was letting him die otherwise, what was the point?

I don't this is a radical interpretation. As I said previously, in the same two-parter Spike is smirking from ear to ear as he watches the biker gang break into a woman's house and you hear her shrieking in terror. Dawn glares at him disapprovingly as Spike admits "it looks like fun" so we already know it's still in his nature to get pleasure out of human terror. That's consistent with Spike's earlier behaviour with Giles.

Put this another way, imagine if it had been Buffy and Giles on patrol instead of Spike and Giles. The large vampire is throttling Giles and Buffy is unable to get him off Giles but she's secretly lit the vampire on fire. Giles is pleading and gasping "Buffy! Buffy!" Now, can you honestly tell me Buffy would allow Giles to believe she's ignoring him, turn her back to him, I don't know, check her finger nails, roll her eyes, or twirl her hair, and feign disinterest as Giles believes he's about to die? No way. It'd be entirely unnecessary and cruel and completely OOC.

I didn't have a right sense of the timing in the scene, thanks for that.
I think it's the word "pleasure" that doesn't sit right with me, especially as you're mentioning the looting scene : to me, this is definitely him taking pleasure in remembering the simpler days of of evoool, and thus it contrasts to the Giles scene, because I don't see it as being the same at all. I see it as him being kind of a smart-ass, maybe a bit of an asshole, but I wouldn't say I see any trace of actual pleasure watching Giles suffer. But then, it's a vibe thing, there's no evidence one way or the other.
For the Buffy comparison, that's not really fair : Spike doesn't see Giles as a father, and they have a fairly antagonistic relationship. He's still helping him/saving him, even if he's being an asshole about it.

@Athene : (forgot to respond, sorry) I think it's an actual vs emotional power situation. Spike in S7 is indeed completely at Buffy's mercy, but he also can tell that Buffy respects him in a way that she didn't in S6 (mostly because she didn't respect herself, and that reflected back on him); S7 Buffy would never beat him to a bloody pulp, or call him a thing, etc... So even though he's dependent on her, he is also on a more equal footing with her, emotionally.

 

[TriBel]

Spike doesn't see Giles as a father, and they have a fairly antagonistic relationship. He's still helping him/saving him, even if he's being an asshole about it.

I think the first part's debatable (Restless?) and an antagonistic relationship between father/son is fairly standard fare for BtVS (and Freud). That said, I think Spike's "on the cusp" - one foot in the Scoobie camp, one foot out. At the moment, he's saying one thing and doing another. He's occupying the space of the virgule - the slash in Man / Monster.

 

[katmobile]

I think the first part's debatable (Restless?) and an antagonistic relationship between father/son is fairly standard fare for BtVS (and Freud). That said, I think Spike's "on the cusp" - one foot in the Scoobie camp, one foot out. At the moment, he's saying one thing and doing another. He's occupying the space of the virgule - the slash in Man / Monster.

That's Xander's dream so it's Xander's POV and stream of consciousness.

 

[vampmogs]

For the Buffy comparison, that's not really fair : Spike doesn't see Giles as a father, and they have a fairly antagonistic relationship.

I made the Buffy comparison to illustrate how it's totally not normal behaviour to let someone believe you're letting them die and then mock them afterwards about the terror of their life "flashing before their eyes". I wasn't comparing Buffy's relationship to Giles with Spike's relationship to Giles. I don't think Buffy would do that to anybody, period. There's no justifiable reason Spike had to play with Giles like that, he just chose to.

As you at least say, Spike was being an "asshole" about it. Which to circle back to the point I was originally making when I first brought this scene up, is evidence that Spike is often guilty of continuing the antagonism between himself and the Scoobies. Moments before this both he and Giles were getting on relatively well (sharing a laugh about the vampire operating "heavy machinery") but then, totally unnecessarily, Spike chooses to be an "asshole" and Giles is weary and pissed at him again. As I've said, I personally think deliberately allowing someone to believe you're letting them die (lighting the cigarette and ignoring his pleas for help) is really unnecessary, cruel and disconcerting, so for me it rates a little higher than just being an "asshole" and is a an example of Spike's soulless nature, but we can at least agree he wasn't being pleasant here. That was my point all along.

Fandom discussions tend to go down a rabbit hole. A scene/episode is cited to make a point but then that specific scene/episode is honed in on and debated and somewhere along the way the reason the scene/episode was brought up in the first place gets lost. To circle back to the original discussion, I was bringing up Bargaining as an example of Spike continuing the antagonistic relationship between himself and a Scooby when there was no need. This was in response to the statement made earlier in the thread that Spike "gets along with people who are nice to him" which is an oversimplification and, dare I say, woobifies Spike to the extreme. Spike can be very unpleasant himself and he's often the instigator of said unpleasantness. Willow in particular is a Scooby who, the vast majority of the time, was pretty pleasant to Spike even to a fault (literally moments after he just tried to kill her in The Initiative) but Spike was always quite adamant that he couldn't "stand" her all the same.

 

[Bop]

@Athene : (forgot to respond, sorry) I think it's an actual vs emotional power situation. Spike in S7 is indeed completely at Buffy's mercy, but he also can tell that Buffy respects him in a way that she didn't in S6 (mostly because she didn't respect herself, and that reflected back on him); S7 Buffy would never beat him to a bloody pulp, or call him a thing, etc... So even though he's dependent on her, he is also on a more equal footing with her, emotionally

The difference to me is that in season 6 I don't see it as being an insult exactly when Buffy calls Spike a "thing" because it's sort of the truth. I think the most out of order thing Buffy has said to Spike is in season 7 when she tells him that she wants the monster in him back. I can't remember the exact quote or episode actually but it's the only time I've felt sorry for Spike and I think it hurt more than everything Buffy said/did in season 6 because Buffy wasn't in a place to hurt Spike then.