Spike's attempted rape

[Robb Stark]

[MENTION=11014]Gum Gnome33[/MENTION],

But (and please guys don't jump down my throat as I bring up this parallel--it's certainly happened before), the show is known for not addressing the deeds of certain vampires in the aftermath, after they have been re-ensouled. Look. Angelus tried to murder Buffy and her friends and family--he killed Jenny. He comes back newly ensouled and the two resume their relationship.

But this isn't really true. They deal with the Angelus situation extensively. They have whole episodes about it, "Amends" being the most obvious. Buffy has major issues and arguments with her friends about it.

Maybe the writers assumed by S7 that because they'd already been down the Angelus road, that the audience would assume Buffy didn't hold Spike responsible for the same reasons (which she does later state). The problem with that (and it isn't a character one) is that they didn't talk about it at all initially and Spike returned to Sunnydale with exceedingly similar qualities to his soulless counterpart (especially his humor), whereas with Angel/Angelus it was crystal clear that they were separate from one another.

I liked what you said though, about the lion analogy.

 

[Gum Gnome33]

But this isn't really true. They deal with the Angelus situation extensively. They have whole episodes about it, "Amends" being the most obvious. Buffy has major issues and arguments with her friends about it.

It's true that they acknowledge extensively the danger that they'd all be in if Buffy/Angel were to resume a romantic relationship and certain characters make clear that they don't want Angel back in their lives because of what Angelus did (namely Giles). What I mean is that we don't see Buffy deal with the fallout on a personal level; we see her eager to resume the relationship and to justify it to her friends but we don't really get an understanding of the thought process she goes through in order to accept this person back into her life. It's implied that she accepts him without much reflection merely because he now has a soul, (which is exactly what she does in season 7 with Spike). I just think we should have seen more of this process of reflection and decision-making. Amends is all about Angel and his repentance as he questions whether he is worth saving--whether he'll ever be truly good. He wants to die--we see all of this with Spike in Lessons and Beneath You.
But we don't really get Buffy's perspective...

I liked what you said though, about the lion analogy.

Heh thanks. It popped into my head and made sense to me so I went with it!

 

[white avenger]

(Quote:
Originally Posted by white avenger View Post
More importantly, it convinced him that the only real chance that he would ever have with Buffy, the only way that he could convince her that he was worthy of her love, was to do the unthinkable. To actually, willingly, regain his soul, not as a curse or a punishment, but as a reward, a prize, something that he actually had to fight to attain, and, in so doing, convince Buffy that he could, indeed, become a better man, a man who she might possibly even love one day.)


Oh this to, I forgot this romantic version of how he got his soul. It's nice, but it's nothing like what happened in the show, and I've never understood how people come to this version unless you watched the show on mute.

This is from the commentary on that episode, and is where I came by that interpretation of the scene:

"In the DVD commentary, James Marsters said that filming the scene in which Spike attempts to rape Buffy was one of the hardest he ever had to do. He has since said that he will never do such a scene again. That scene has also generated controversy between fans and the writers,[2] but writer Jane Espenson says that moment was necessary to set up a powerful motivation for Spike's quest to gain a soul.[3] As James Marsters points out, "How do you motivate him [to] make a mistake that's so heart-rending that he'd be willing to do that?"[4] Marsters would later say in 2012 that he understood the idea to have come from "a female writer, [who] had a situation in her life where she was and her boyfriend were breaking up and she decided if she just made love to him one more time, that they wouldn't break up. She ended up trying to force herself on him and decided to write about that."

 

[Black Eye Guy]

Yeah I mean it's tricky to call it "romantic" because of course Spike is still soulless when the decision is made. But romance is relative of course. Spike thought bringing Dru birds to eat or whatever was super romantic because it was, for a vampire.

I agree that it can't be called romantic, because there is no romance about it, even relative to Spike, nothing in the show points to him getting a soul to prove himself. Everything in the show seems to me that he wants to prove Buffy already loves him.

So I think he might have thought that getting a soul for Buffy would be interpreted as a grand, romantic gesture in the aftermath of his assault.

Sorry to nit pick, but other then liking Spike and wanting this to be the reason, where do you get this from? I'm genuinely asking, cuz the actual show in both Spikes presoul and post soul speeches he basically says he's going to get a soul to prove to Buffy that she loves him, so she'll have to admit to loving him. There's nothing about getting the soul for her to be a champion, it's about proving he's right.

But it's more than that; you touched on it above--it's his lack of soul that prevents her from loving him. When she breaks up with him she says " I CAN'T love you and it's killing me." It's clear to him that he needs what Angel has: a soul. And you're right, I think this is clearly the "spark; the missing piece" that makes him whole. But he's not entirely wrong to see it that way--indeed he isn't whole without the soul and his assault on Buffy is the proof. Therefore the assault is a catalyst (albeit a terrible one on the part of the writers) toward getting the soul.
And for sure the reasoning is totally selfish: love girl, want girl, get soul so girl will love me. But that logic/course of action is not exactly unique to soulless beings 🙂

Totally agree, there is no way she loved him in season 6, she cared for him, but no way it was love, she couldn't have becasue he had no soul.

I also totally agree that his reasons for getting the soul are totally selfish, and that there is no problem with that. Where I was coming from was aimed more at WA original post, which saying how Spike got his soul to prove him would fight to have a soul to prove his love - and nothing like that exists in the show. The show, I think, is pretty clear that Spike didn't get a soul to prove his worthiness, but he does it to prove Buffy already loves him and could just accept it, proving her wrong.

Like basically what happens is he tries to initiate sex with her, he is stopped, he realized she wont admit her love till he has a soul, he decides to get a soul to prove that he wasn't as guilty as he feels, and that she is wrong, he gets a soul, tries to initiate sex with her, is stopped and then accepts that she doesn't love him, that the soul didn't mean instant love.

I honestly can't say, if exposed to the same phenomena (chip, group acceptance, etc) that Angelus wouldn't go down the same path as Spike--I'm not ruling it out.

The thing is that it's not hypocritical/inconsistent to say that Spike and Angelus were different in some ways and similar in others. Spike did good while soulless but eventually regressed, gave into his demon and attacked Buffy. Angelus was always pure evil. In terms of how they are to be viewed post attack, I think there has to be consistency, (either forgive both or neither) because the parallel is obvious. Both vampires attacked Buffy because of their soulessness, and both are asking to be forgiven because they are now ensouled. That's the parallel.

I can kinda agree with that, the only problem with that for me, is when fans go on about his journey from good to bad, how he grew from soulless to basically having a soul, but want to ignore the attempted rape. If you want to forgive both or neither, then that undoes all the good Spike did in season 6, to instantly wipe the slate clean like is done with Angel, then nothing soulless spike did good or bad matters.

Where there needs to be consistency is among the fans, some are happy to take it as a clean slate, others want the clean slate and all the good stuff too. I've had this debate with other people on here and they'll say they agree it should be a totally clean slate, then in another thread use examples of his growth through season 4,5,6 and 7, which technically 4,5 and 6 shouldn't matter.

I basically see it as if I stated a thread saying that the reason Angelus didn't kill Buffy, was not becasue he wanted to mess with her and draw the experience out, but becasue he still loved her and was hoping that if he held off long enough someone would work out a way to return his soul. Nothing to support that is in the show, it is complete fan-crap, and its the same thing that is the majority of Spikes explanations.

So I understand I guess the notion that Spike's act can be considered worse-- but that assumes that one acknowledges that he was worthy of trust before he committed it. The inconsistency I see with some fans is that they aren't willing to admit that Spike made some progress toward understanding the difference between good and evil yet they treat Spike's transgression toward Buffy as though it was worse than Angelus's. In order for it to be considered worse, we have to acknowledge that it was a betrayal in addition to an act of violence (whereas with Angelus it was murder at the hands of--essentially--a stranger). So if we acknowledge that Spike should have known better, we also acknowledge that he'd made progress toward that knowledge of his own will, (clearly I see it as an intentional act to better himself for Buffy's approval in seasons 5 and 6). And he deserves credit for this. And that credit doesn't take away from the chastisement he deserves for his attack in season 6; in fact it adds to it (the blame).

Do you see what I'm saying?

I do, but if he made progress and gets credit for that, and messed up when he tried to rape her, that shouldn't be instantly forgiven just becasue he got a soul, especially depending on the motive for getting his soul. The motive for the soul is everything, and like I said everything in the show seems to say he did it to prove Buffy wrong, not to be a champion.

This is from the commentary on that episode, and is where I came by that interpretation of the scene:

"In the DVD commentary, James Marsters said that filming the scene in which Spike attempts to rape Buffy was one of the hardest he ever had to do. He has since said that he will never do such a scene again. That scene has also generated controversy between fans and the writers,[2] but writer Jane Espenson says that moment was necessary to set up a powerful motivation for Spike's quest to gain a soul.[3] As James Marsters points out, "How do you motivate him [to] make a mistake that's so heart-rending that he'd be willing to do that?"[4] Marsters would later say in 2012 that he understood the idea to have come from "a female writer, [who] had a situation in her life where she was and her boyfriend were breaking up and she decided if she just made love to him one more time, that they wouldn't break up. She ended up trying to force herself on him and decided to write about that."

Okay, but the writer for the show just says the scene was motivation to get the character, but doesn't say how it's motivation. The text of the show explain the motivation, and there's nothing like your interpretation of Spike getting his soul in the show?

 

[Robb Stark]

I still fail to see how comments from Spike shortly after what happened like "bitch is gonna see a change" can be construed as romantic or remorseful of what happened. I have always believed that Spike went to the cave to get his soul, and I'm well aware of what the writers have said after the fact, but the central contradiction is hard to get around. If he felt so bad about what had gone down, why would he have sh**-talked her and called her bitch? Any way you slice it, that's not the actions of someone who truly felt remorse.

And really, I'm not sure why people want it the other way. It makes his S7 story better. Being capable of falling in love, even falling as hard as Spike did, doesn't mean he wasn't a murderer and torturer who openly reveled in the carnage he caused.

 

[Gum Gnome33]

Everything in the show seems to me that he wants to prove Buffy already loves him.

Yeah I agree here. Also though it's deeply upsetting to consider, that was his motivation for the attack as well. Sex had been the most concrete display of Buffy's interest in him, and he assumed that in pursuing a physical relationship with him she was expressing love (maybe for a vampire this is usually as close as one gets to the sentiment though I think that what Spike felt for Buffy was unique in that it was much more like human love relative to other vampires.)
I can see that his quest to get a soul could be interpreted as another branch of that same desire: "you love me, I'll prove it--I'll have a soul like Angel and then you'll tell the world you love me and we can be together."

When I say "romantic" I think that's what I'm referring to. Spike wanted a monogamous relationship with a human being; wanted it out in the open for all the world to see and was prepared to make this huge sacrifice (getting his soul) in order to make that happen.

Sorry to nit pick, but other then liking Spike and wanting this to be the reason, where do you get this from? I'm genuinely asking, cuz the actual show in both Spikes presoul and post soul speeches he basically says he's going to get a soul to prove to Buffy that she loves him, so she'll have to admit to loving him. There's nothing about getting the soul for her to be a champion, it's about proving he's right.

Yeah I don't think he was anywhere near to wanting to be her champion before he had a soul--I'm with you. But it was a grand gesture nonetheless to try to win her over, mixed with something more which I admit might be coming more from James than from the script. I mean I see all over Spike's face--in every move he makes as soon as Buffy pushes him off--that he is ready to stake himself because he is so disgusted with what he's done and he realizes that he just. can. not. continue. this way. Which is incredibly noble for a vampire. So when people say he wanted to become a champion I think maybe this is where it's coming from.

The bottom line is that in getting a soul Spike did take the most respectable and noble path he could have, given what he'd just done to Buffy. He could have, in the aftermath, chosen to become a full-on monster, knowing that now he'd never have Buffy's love and choosing maybe to kill her instead. (I mean that sounds like a classic soulless vampire move to me.) He could have, in his grief and self disgust, staked himself. But he chose to do something which would actually make him better and though--yes, he did it for a girl--it was by far above and beyond what most creatures, let alone a vampire, would have done in the aftermath of committing a horrific deed.

I also sort of see it all as his way of saying: "Ok Buffy, I finally understand you. To love me I have to change and I'm willing to do that." The thing is, too, that he didn't want her if she didn't want him. Which I find admirable. Obviously his attempt to initiate sex which led to an attack is inexcusable and never, ever ok. But for me the fact that afterward he chose to get a soul rather than say "ok, it didn't work that time but I'll just try again or wait for her to use me when she's down and hating herself again--" the fact that he, a soulless vampire, didn't want that but rather decided that what he wanted was actual "clean" love which he believed he could attain if ensouled--that's what I find to be profound.

So yeah, I hope it doesn't sound like I'm attempting to fan-wank away the profundity of what he did or attempting to excuse it. I just think (and again this is totally credited to James' acting as much as anything) the horror he obviously felt at his own act was such a profound reaction from a soulless creature and his move to get a soul afterward--even if it was just to win (or prove) Buffy's love--is worth something.

Where there needs to be consistency is among the fans, some are happy to take it as a clean slate, others want the clean slate and all the good stuff too. I've had this debate with other people on here and they'll say they agree it should be a totally clean slate, then in another thread use examples of his growth through season 4,5,6 and 7, which technically 4,5 and 6 shouldn't matter.

I think part of the problem here is that there is what Buffy likely considers when approaching a season 7 Spike, and then there are the impressions among fans. What I mean is that I don't think that Buffy herself can really separate out the two beings because for better or worse they did have a relationship in season 6, though greatly dysfunctional. She trusted him not to hurt her, to watch Dawn, to help protect her friends. And he was able to do all of those things for an entire year before succumbing again to his demon and attacking her. But the memories she's built are inextricably linked to this new ensouled Spike and while she can see him with a clean slate with regard to the attack (and not to mention all the attacks on both sides that took place through season 5) upon considering him as a partner in the future she probably can't ignore whatever relatively healthy aspects of their season 6 relationships took place. The conversations, the trust, the laughs, the camaraderie.

The thing is that because she had a relationship with Spike while he was soulless; because there were aspects of their partnership that could almost pass for healthy--there would never really be a 100% clean slate when he came back from Africa, ensouled. And maybe it's because of that that some fans can't accept that she would ever forgive him either, and I get that. I do. I touched on that before when I compared it to Angel/Angelus; it was day, night, and then day again. Buffy didn't have the task of trying to separate out the good times she'd had with Angelus (!) and bring them over when attempting to start over with Angel.

I think it's uncomfortable to consider the reality that Buffy liked soulless Spike. In season 6, I mean. She actually cared for him and was pleased by him often. Yes she was self destructive when she initiated their physical relationship but she was not so far gone that she wanted to torture herself. Rather, she got something positive from him; this is someone with whom she trusted her little sister's well-being. This is someone who actually saved her life when she was ready to throw it away again in front of Sweet. But it's also someone who forced himself on her.

So when he returns she is eager to forget his transgressions; I mean she was able to have an intimate relationship with him in the past in spite of the many horrible fights they'd had in which he very much wanted to kill her--now ensouled I suppose she felt it'd be easier. I mean all of this reasoning is still problematic; with both Angel and Spike we are talking about a girl who decided to forgive and re-embrace her attacker and we never saw her think through the decision in a healthy way.

But when she embraced the new Spike, she did take the positive memories with her (why give him the time of day otherwise?) And I think we fans do that, too. We also get to know Spike in seasons 5 and 6 in a new light from the bad-ass vamp who can't catch a break but whose number 1 mission is to destroy the slayer. Our hearts melt when when we hear his account of the night he was turned into an evil creature. We are moved when upon seeing Buffy crying on her porch, he chooses to comfort her the only way he knows how--to pat her gingerly on the back as he imagines humans do in order to communicate sentiments of understanding and support. We watch him fall to his knees in grief after Buffy's death. We see him reject the flirtatious 'bot that summer (oh so much progress, and who's watching?) We see the look in his eyes when she walks down the stairs toward him--alive, alive. The empathy when he punches his hand and remembers hers, newly torn.

Anyway. I see how if someone were to embrace all that, that they could be particularly unwilling to give him a clean slate after his attack. I didn't see it before but I do now. What I don't understand is that if one doesn't believe that Spike made any progress toward becoming anything other than evil before the attack, it should be just as easy to grant him tabula rasa as it was for Angel after his bout as Angelus. You know?

I basically see it as if I stated a thread saying that the reason Angelus didn't kill Buffy, was not becasue he wanted to mess with her and draw the experience out, but becasue he still loved her and was hoping that if he held off long enough someone would work out a way to return his soul.

Totally fair--I hope my attempt to explain my view on Spike is sounding less like silly fan-wank and becoming more grounded/fleshed out?

Gah I'm long-winded girl today. Have some down time lately. Thanks to anyone who read this far! 😀

 

[white avenger]

Who would win?

Astronauts or cave men?

Because we're far more likely to settle that question before we reach an agreement on this thread.

 

[Black Eye Guy]

I'll reply to you Gum Gnome33 when I get home

Who would win?

Astronauts or cave men?

Because we're far more likely to settle that question before we reach an agreement on this thread.

No not at all, and you always whip this out when you run out of things to say. Myself and Gum Gnome33 aren't in a completely agree to disagree situation, there are points the other makes that we both agree on. Although GG33's version isn't the same romanticized version as yours.

I had asked for proof of your romanticized version of the events, and you had a vague quote from a writer that doesn't back up your view. If you have no sources for your belief on Spikes motives thats fine, but that doesn't make it a cavemen vs astronauts argument.

 

[white avenger]

I had asked for proof of your romanticized version of the events, and you had a vague quote from a writer that doesn't back up your view. If you have no sources for your belief on Spikes motives thats fine, but that doesn't make it a cavemen vs astronauts argument.

That vague quote wasn't offered as proof of anything beyond the stated purpose of the scene. It was written to create a situation that would lead Spike to undertake something that, as far as we know, no other vampire had ever done.

As far as "whipping out' the astronauts vs cave men analogy, I believe that it is quite appropriate in this discussion because there is no proof anywhere, one way or the other, as to specifically why Spike thought that he needed a soul. It has been said on more than one occasion by Joss haihimself that everything that Spike said to the cave demon was meant to mislead the fans into thinking that he wanted his chip removed so that he could exact some sort of revenge on Buffy in order to make for a more shocking ending. That is fact, easily confirmed. However, trying to determine Spike's specific motives using anything that he might have either said or inferred during the trials won't work simply because his words and actions WERE presented in such a way as to make them basically useless as any sort of argument.

Why Spike actually wanted a soul has never been officially addressed by Joss. Whether Spike wanted his soul in order to somehow force Buffy to admit that she loved him, or to become the sort of man who she could, and would, see as someone who she could love, is strictly up to the personal interpretation of the viewer, and not everyone, obviously, has the same opinion as to what the true answer is. However, it's safe to say that, whatever opinion someone might have on the matter, they probably feel strongly enough about it that no amount of argument is going to change their opinion.

 

[janas]

Who would win?

Astronauts or cave men?

Because we're far more likely to settle that question before we reach an agreement on this thread.

Maybe, but do not you wonder why you? The arguments concerning the "rape" evokes visceral emotions, it is the most terrifying thing that can happen to a woman, and this, in real life, happens every-single-day. Many women identify with Buffy, so it's difficult to forgive the writers for how they banalized and belittled the her suffering.

In real life, it never happens that the victim says "I love you" to her rapist. In real life, after rape, the victim ceases to live, she is afraid to leave the house, no longer able to sleep or eat, she is no longer able to laugh. His emotional life is seriously compromised, and maybe no longer be able to love anyone. Nothing will ever be like before. A part of her is dead forever. In real life, the victim enters into psychotherapy, while, maybe, the rapist, after few months in prison, is still free to roam the world, maybe looking for other victims. Oh, well.. in real life, it can also happen, according to a certain culture, the rapist is seen as a hero, while the victim's life has become a living hell.

Do you still believe, that it's just a matter of "Astronauts or cave men"?

 

[Kean]

was prepared to make this huge sacrifice (getting his soul) in order to make that happen.

The bottom line is that in getting a soul Spike did take the most respectable and noble path he could have, given what he'd just done to Buffy. He could have, in the aftermath, chosen to become a full-on monster, knowing that now he'd never have Buffy's love and choosing maybe to kill her instead. (I mean that sounds like a classic soulless vampire move to me.) He could have, in his grief and self disgust, staked himself. But he chose to do something which would actually make him better and though--yes, he did it for a girl--it was by far above and beyond what most creatures, let alone a vampire, would have done in the aftermath of committing a horrific deed.

the fact that he, a soulless vampire, didn't want that but rather decided that what he wanted was actual "clean" love which he believed he could attain if ensouled--that's what I find to be profound.

I understand where you're coming from and can see how you'd feel this away about Spike's reaction, especially from how he was in S7, but I have to say, I don't see anything in the show to indicates that he took on this soul as any kind of "sacrifice" or actively changing himself so he can have a "clean" love with Buffy.

From what we had seen of Spike interacting with Angel he never seemed to regard the soul as a "real" thing. Often times he would remark that he believed Angel was acting the part of someone with a conscience. At most Spike acted as if he believed Angel was "putting it on" or "hamming up" what a vampire with a soul is. In Ireland we'd call it a person "looking for notice." I don't think Spike appreciated in the least what he was about to do, if he did I don't think he would have done it.

I honestly don't believe Spike went to get the soul thinking it would change him in an significant way other than the fact that it would change the way Buffy perceived him. He even seems shocked at the consequences of the soul, he clearly didn't go into it expecting to feel how he ends up feeling. The idea of a love that was worthy of Buffy comes after the soul, not before.

To me, the story still reads that Spike got the soul because that's what he believed he needed to do to have sex with Buffy. It was an ends to a means, a knee jerk reaction, not an act of sincere regret or nobility.

 

[Black Eye Guy]

Yeah I agree here. Also though it's deeply upsetting to consider, that was his motivation for the attack as well. Sex had been the most concrete display of Buffy's interest in him, and he assumed that in pursuing a physical relationship with him she was expressing love (maybe for a vampire this is usually as close as one gets to the sentiment though I think that what Spike felt for Buffy was unique in that it was much more like human love relative to other vampires.)
I can see that his quest to get a soul could be interpreted as another branch of that same desire: "you love me, I'll prove it--I'll have a soul like Angel and then you'll tell the world you love me and we can be together."

When I say "romantic" I think that's what I'm referring to. Spike wanted a monogamous relationship with a human being; wanted it out in the open for all the world to see and was prepared to make this huge sacrifice (getting his soul) in order to make that happen.

I completely agree with all that, I can understand Spike not backing down when Buffy said no as that was no different then before, and his lack of a soul only makes the situation worse. I can completely get behind your "romantic" version of Spike getting his soul, wanting to get it out there to prove he was right, it's just the he did it for love and to be a better man version I dont accept as thats not what the show presented.

Yeah I don't think he was anywhere near to wanting to be her champion before he had a soul--I'm with you. But it was a grand gesture nonetheless to try to win her over, mixed with something more which I admit might be coming more from James than from the script. I mean I see all over Spike's face--in every move he makes as soon as Buffy pushes him off--that he is ready to stake himself because he is so disgusted with what he's done and he realizes that he just. can. not. continue. this way. Which is incredibly noble for a vampire. So when people say he wanted to become a champion I think maybe this is where it's coming from.

The bottom line is that in getting a soul Spike did take the most respectable and noble path he could have, given what he'd just done to Buffy. He could have, in the aftermath, chosen to become a full-on monster, knowing that now he'd never have Buffy's love and choosing maybe to kill her instead. (I mean that sounds like a classic soulless vampire move to me.) He could have, in his grief and self disgust, staked himself. But he chose to do something which would actually make him better and though--yes, he did it for a girl--it was by far above and beyond what most creatures, let alone a vampire, would have done in the aftermath of committing a horrific deed.

I kinda agree, but I definitely dont see it as a totally noble act. When he comes back to town with a soul, he tries to initiate sex again and he goes on to say:

She shall look on him with forgiveness, and everybody will forgive and love. He will be loved.

The fact he did it for an instant get out of jail free card, to me, makes it less noble. There is a bit of nobility in the act, he says himself, he got the soul to be the man that wouldn't do... and trails off, I presume he's referring to the attempted rape.
I think the show makes it quite clear Spike develops feelings and takes a little bit of responsibility for the attempted rape in going to get the soul, but for me, the fact it's to be instantly forgiven and loved makes the act not as noble as it's often made out to be. To me thats the same as if for season 2 - 5 of Angel, Angel sat around in pajama bottoms watching TV waiting to Shanshu becasue of all the good he'd done in season 1. Angel never decides what is enough to be forgiven, which for me makes him more noble. Spike expects to be forgiven with a single act, that just isn't a version of noble that matches the word for me.

I also sort of see it all as his way of saying: "Ok Buffy, I finally understand you. To love me I have to change and I'm willing to do that." The thing is, too, that he didn't want her if she didn't want him. Which I find admirable. Obviously his attempt to initiate sex which led to an attack is inexcusable and never, ever ok. But for me the fact that afterward he chose to get a soul rather than say "ok, it didn't work that time but I'll just try again or wait for her to use me when she's down and hating herself again--" the fact that he, a soulless vampire, didn't want that but rather decided that what he wanted was actual "clean" love which he believed he could attain if ensouled--that's what I find to be profound.

So yeah, I hope it doesn't sound like I'm attempting to fan-wank away the profundity of what he did or attempting to excuse it. I just think (and again this is totally credited to James' acting as much as anything) the horror he obviously felt at his own act was such a profound reaction from a soulless creature and his move to get a soul afterward--even if it was just to win (or prove) Buffy's love--is worth something.

I think it's worth something, but I dont think it's worth as much as Spike thinks it should be worth. If he'd left Sunnydale straight away after and got a soul, the entire time going on about how bad he felt, then got the soul and came back to town and said (in some version) I messed up, so I got a soul so I'd never do it again - I'd completely agree with you, but thats not what happens, there is a lot of misdirect in the finale 3 episodes of season 6, but even when he gets back, his response is basically "Oh bugger my plan back fired, I was hoping you'd feel the spark and love me, but instead I'm wracked with guilt and feel bad and nothings changed for you" - where is the nobility in that?

I think part of the problem here is that there is what Buffy likely considers when approaching a season 7 Spike, and then there are the impressions among fans. What I mean is that I don't think that Buffy herself can really separate out the two beings because for better or worse they did have a relationship in season 6, though greatly dysfunctional. She trusted him not to hurt her, to watch Dawn, to help protect her friends. And he was able to do all of those things for an entire year before succumbing again to his demon and attacking her. But the memories she's built are inextricably linked to this new ensouled Spike and while she can see him with a clean slate with regard to the attack (and not to mention all the attacks on both sides that took place through season 5) upon considering him as a partner in the future she probably can't ignore whatever relatively healthy aspects of their season 6 relationships took place. The conversations, the trust, the laughs, the camaraderie.

The thing is that because she had a relationship with Spike while he was soulless; because there were aspects of their partnership that could almost pass for healthy--there would never really be a 100% clean slate when he came back from Africa, ensouled. And maybe it's because of that that some fans can't accept that she would ever forgive him either, and I get that. I do. I touched on that before when I compared it to Angel/Angelus; it was day, night, and then day again. Buffy didn't have the task of trying to separate out the good times she'd had with Angelus (!) and bring them over when attempting to start over with Angel.

I think it's uncomfortable to consider the reality that Buffy liked soulless Spike. In season 6, I mean. She actually cared for him and was pleased by him often. Yes she was self destructive when she initiated their physical relationship but she was not so far gone that she wanted to torture herself. Rather, she got something positive from him; this is someone with whom she trusted her little sister's well-being. This is someone who actually saved her life when she was ready to throw it away again in front of Sweet. But it's also someone who forced himself on her.

So when he returns she is eager to forget his transgressions; I mean she was able to have an intimate relationship with him in the past in spite of the many horrible fights they'd had in which he very much wanted to kill her--now ensouled I suppose she felt it'd be easier. I mean all of this reasoning is still problematic; with both Angel and Spike we are talking about a girl who decided to forgive and re-embrace her attacker and we never saw her think through the decision in a healthy way.

But when she embraced the new Spike, she did take the positive memories with her (why give him the time of day otherwise?) And I think we fans do that, too. We also get to know Spike in seasons 5 and 6 in a new light from the bad-ass vamp who can't catch a break but whose number 1 mission is to destroy the slayer. Our hearts melt when when we hear his account of the night he was turned into an evil creature. We are moved when upon seeing Buffy crying on her porch, he chooses to comfort her the only way he knows how--to pat her gingerly on the back as he imagines humans do in order to communicate sentiments of understanding and support. We watch him fall to his knees in grief after Buffy's death. We see him reject the flirtatious 'bot that summer (oh so much progress, and who's watching?) We see the look in his eyes when she walks down the stairs toward him--alive, alive. The empathy when he punches his hand and remembers hers, newly torn.

Anyway. I see how if someone were to embrace all that, that they could be particularly unwilling to give him a clean slate after his attack. I didn't see it before but I do now. What I don't understand is that if one doesn't believe that Spike made any progress toward becoming anything other than evil before the attack, it should be just as easy to grant him tabula rasa as it was for Angel after his bout as Angelus. You know?

I can definitely understand that. My own personal view on it, there was development in seasons 5 and 6, to the point of basically having a soul. I think that Spike isn't much different pre/post soul, and to me that means the attempted rape is part of his personality, and is something he could have done if he had a soul, I dont think the lack of a soul was the deciding factor in his decision to do that, I think it played a part, but I think that pre/post souled Spike are so intertwined that it's hard not to believe he's capable of that even with a soul, just as people in the real world are.

Totally fair--I hope my attempt to explain my view on Spike is sounding less like silly fan-wank and becoming more grounded/fleshed out?

Gah I'm long-winded girl today. Have some down time lately. Thanks to anyone who read this far! 😀

I know, my posts haven't been this long in ages! lol

That vague quote wasn't offered as proof of anything beyond the stated purpose of the scene. It was written to create a situation that would lead Spike to undertake something that, as far as we know, no other vampire had ever done.

But the way you talk about this scene as if it were just a set up for getting his soul, it's still a scene with character motives. Every other scene in the show is dissected and analyzed by all of us, but when it comes to this scene people dont want to talk about it and seem to think nothing matters past it was a set up.

As far as "whipping out' the astronauts vs cave men analogy, I believe that it is quite appropriate in this discussion because there is no proof anywhere, one way or the other, as to specifically why Spike thought that he needed a soul. It has been said on more than one occasion by Joss haihimself that everything that Spike said to the cave demon was meant to mislead the fans into thinking that he wanted his chip removed so that he could exact some sort of revenge on Buffy in order to make for a more shocking ending.

But that is not true at all! The misdirect was Spike getting a chip, his motive is unaffected. I am not trying to say he wanted to get his chip out, I'm saying there is a lot of evidence that supports a less noble motive.

That is fact, easily confirmed. However, trying to determine Spike's specific motives using anything that he might have either said or inferred during the trials won't work simply because his words and actions WERE presented in such a way as to make them basically useless as any sort of argument.

This is such a load of crap, and wouldn't fly in any other part of a debate for any other character (if I remember correctly you were calling bullshit on the comic book writers who tried to justify Angels actions as Twilight, and about how he was going to take everyone to the new universe - Angel fans dont even eat that up, that same thread still had Angel fans fuming and saying they had no idea what Angel would have to do to redeem himself)
For this to be true, the writers of BtVS would have had to be the stupidest writers ever, which they are not. The scene may have had to mislead, but that just means the dialogue has two meanings, not that you just throw the dialogue out when the twist is revealed.
Aside from the finale 3 episodes, there is scenes in Beneath You that also back up what I have already said in regards to his motive, so what I was asking for was the bits that said "this was an 100% noble act" becasue I dont see those.

Why Spike actually wanted a soul has never been officially addressed by Joss. Whether Spike wanted his soul in order to somehow force Buffy to admit that she loved him, or to become the sort of man who she could, and would, see as someone who she could love, is strictly up to the personal interpretation of the viewer, and not everyone, obviously, has the same opinion as to what the true answer is. However, it's safe to say that, whatever opinion someone might have on the matter, they probably feel strongly enough about it that no amount of argument is going to change their opinion.

I agree, but asking people to back up their opinion shouldn't be a problem, even if the answer is there's no evidence from the show, I just want it to be that way.

 

[Gum Gnome33]

I don't see anything in the show to indicates that he took on this soul as any kind of "sacrifice" or actively changing himself so he can have a "clean" love with Buffy.

What I mean by "clean" love is that he wanted Buffy to reciprocate and not merely to be overpowered into being with him (ironic of course because that's just what he does but that is because he is royally disturbed/confused about how to receive that reciprocity).

And actually I agree that "sacrifice" isn't the right word because it only exists in retrospect doesn't it? It's total sacrifice for Spike to have to endure the torture of having a conscience but sure enough he didn't actually anticipate having to do so.

From what we had seen of Spike interacting with Angel he never seemed to regard the soul as a "real" thing. Often times he would remark that he believed Angel was acting the part of someone with a conscience. At most Spike acted as if he believed Angel was "putting it on" or "hamming up" what a vampire with a soul is. In Ireland we'd call it a person "looking for notice." I don't think Spike appreciated in the least what he was about to do, if he did I don't think he would have done it.

I agree. I think the tricky thing is that the Spike of season 2 who I believe to be in a very different place emotionally, morally, developmentally than the Spike of season 6--most certainly detested the notion of a soul and thought it made Angel more disingenuous than anything else. But I believe that by the time he actually sought it out it meant something more to him in spite of the fact that he--still--didn't truly understand what having it would mean or that it was a true sacrifice to bear. It's like he was caught in the middle about everything: his understanding of right/wrong, his behavior, his understanding of a soul had all progressed to a more humanlike grasp on it all but didn't quite make the mark. So I concede that it wasn't yet a "sacrifice" but argue that it was more than the nothing it meant to him in season 2.

I honestly don't believe Spike went to get the soul thinking it would change him in an significant way other than the fact that it would change the way Buffy perceived him. He even seems shocked at the consequences of the soul, he clearly didn't go into it expecting to feel how he ends up feeling. The idea of a love that was worthy of Buffy comes after the soul, not before.

I mostly agree with this but he did understand, if only intellectually, that a soul would permanently remove the demon from within (of course in the real world that's nonsense but in the 'verse there is much more of a black and white take on soul-having). He says, referring to his current state: "can't be a monster, can't be a man" which illustrates that awareness--and then chooses man over monster. Compared to what he could have done, (choose to commit to being a full-on monster with a modified diet or keep searching for a way to remove the chip) I think of his quest as noble, especially considering that the desire came from a soulless being, (again relativity is everything here).

The fact he did it for an instant get out of jail free card, to me, makes it less noble. There is a bit of nobility in the act, he says himself, he got the soul to be the man that wouldn't do... and trails off, I presume he's referring to the attempted rape.
I think the show makes it quite clear Spike develops feelings and takes a little bit of responsibility for the attempted rape in going to get the soul, but for me, the fact it's to be instantly forgiven and loved makes the act not as noble as it's often made out to be. To me thats the same as if for season 2 - 5 of Angel, Angel sat around in pajama bottoms watching TV waiting to Shanshu becasue of all the good he'd done in season 1. Angel never decides what is enough to be forgiven, which for me makes him more noble. Spike expects to be forgiven with a single act, that just isn't a version of noble that matches the word for me.

I see where you are coming from here but I view it as a bit more complicated than an expectation of immediate forgiveness (once he's souled mind you). First of all, when Buffy touches him he curls up his shoulders in discomfort and practically shrieks "am I flesh to you?" Then takes a second and concedes to what he believes she wants from him, (his body as she had in season 6; he of course later admits in season 7 that he didn't understand that she was using him until he had a soul and I think this exchange above is sort of the first glimpse we get of that realization). So the initiation of sex is more like a resignation to the role he had before, knowing now that it was not linked in any way to Buffy's love. Of course he'd misinterpreted the whole thing and Buffy (rightly) throws him across the room.

About his expectations for forgiveness: I had a long back-and-forth with a less patient member a while ago about what I perceived to be a clear difference between expecting forgiveness and hoping for it. My read on season 7 Spike is that in the beginning of the season he is bouncing from incoherent to shameful and instead of assuming that Buffy will want to resume the relationship he clutches the cross in (what I interpret as) defeat and basically begs her to forgive him so that he can "rest." I interpret his need to "rest," ("can we rest now, Buffy? Can we rest?") as his newfound desire (thanks to the gnawing conscience) to find relief from the guilt he bears. When he collects himself and the season proceeds, he truly doesn't expect anything intimate from her but genuinely wants to help protect her from the big bad cookie monster that lives under the bed (sorry I think the First is so lame).

I agree that his desire to be around her is deeply rooted in selfishness and that does detract from the nobility of the sacrifice (which again is sort of a hard thing to qualify anyway since the true pain came after he was ensouled). But to that I have to shrug and wonder if it's ever to be considered less than admirable when a person wants to be around the woman he/she loves? I mean I think if he'd come back insisting that she forgive him, truly expecting it and maybe once living in her home again-- dropping hints like "baby I really think we should talk about US now that I'm basically human" while stroking her hair, THEN I'd say yes--gross, forget it. But he hopes, sure, maybe beyond hope that she'll forgive him. And the forgiveness he needs doesn't have to be in the form of a relationship either, which is also a check in the "good guy" category. He's happy to die once she's told him she loves him because at the very least it is a declaration of forgiveness which I believe is what he'd truly been looking for upon returning.

I think we see more evidence in ATS season 5 when he doesn't rush out to tell her he's alive; doesn't expect a relationship from her, again.

By the way I just wanted to say to you, [MENTION=5973]Black Eye Guy[/MENTION] and [MENTION=7585]Kean[/MENTION] thanks for being super classy and having this discussion with me! Though our opinions differ I find it all to be deeply entertaining and productive and talks such as these do a lot to build on my love for the show--I hope they do so for you, too!

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

It didn't put me off the character any more then I already was, at that stage I just didn't care for the character, he was boring to me.

I think the set up to it made perfect sense, he was used to Buffy saying no, so he was in a similar circumstance. He took it to far because he had no soul.

The main thing that actually annoyed me about this incident was the fan reaction/feedback. How people try and justify it, by saying things like

'he's so good he didn't keep going' - Buffy kicked him off her, get a grip.

Yeah, no, justifying rape is never okay. I've never - that I can recall - tried to justify the attempted rape. I have, however, as White Avenger said, expressed that I thought it was necessary for Spike's evolution from a story-perspective. Spike could have never done the unthinkable without doing the unthinkable. Hurting Buffy was that for him. The Be All End All. The absolute worst possible thing he could do

'it's not rape, he didn't have sex with her and he wouldn't have' / 'He wasn't aware of what he was doing'[/I] - He literately says "I know you felt it ... when I was inside you...You'll feel it again, Buffy...I'm gonna make you feel it". He is aware she doesn't want to have sex with him, he doesn't care becasue he think she love him. So he's going to force her to have sex with him to prove it to her.

Really? Fans have said this? Wow.

I doubt that's true. I believe Spike would have gone through with it if she hadn't kciked him off. Sure, he did seem to "snap out of it", but who knows...he was out of his head, crazy. I'd have put nothing past him at that point.

Then there's the picking and choosing of whats okay and whats not, so if he did something good in season 5/6 it's trotted out like the greatest thing since slice bread, but then mention the attempted rape and it's all "he was soulless, he was a evil vampire, but he has a soul now, he's fixed"... People want to see Spike as a character who grew through season 4/5/6 and grew to the souled point in season 7, but dont want to see the attempted rape as something he's responsible for, even though it is after any good stuff, so if souled Spike gets credibility for anything good he did, he should be held accountable for the bad to.

Fans who argue that obviously haven't thought it through that well.

We all see our favorite characters through rose-tinted glasses. We naturally make excuses for him and exclaim their innocence when they should be rightfully accused. That's what fans do. That doesn't, however, mean we are always right.

Aside from the fan justification, the writers deciding to ignore the topic after they planted it was also stupid, although I'd say that could be becasue of fan reaction as well as there was such outrage when it aired, they just dropped the issue in season 7. So the message became it's okay to try and rape someone becasue if you do something good enough (get a soul) it will fix it.

Hmm, that's not how I see it and not what the writers intended, I think. The topic wasn't ignored. Spike has addressed it.

He got his soul for the same reason he tried to rape her, to prove to her that she loved him, not to prove his love for her. He did it to say "Ha, I was right" not "look what I've done for you". Everything he says in the show says he's doing it to prove a point, and I'm not talking about any of the removing the chip false leads.

I have to disagree here. Spike didn't get his soul to prove that she loved him. He got his soul so she could. There's a difference. He got his soul so he could be the kind of man worthy of her love. He said so himself.

He calls her bitch, and says how she thinks she's better then him, nothing that actually happens in those scenes says romantic love/proving he's worthy of her love it's the same motive that lead to his attempted rape, he thinks she already loved him and he wanted to prove it to her spitefully.

That's just posturing. Spike respects Buffy more than anyone he has ever known.

 

[itssmiletime]

Yeah, no, justifying rape is never okay. I've never - that I can recall - tried to justify the attempted rape. I have, however, as White Avenger said, expressed that I thought it was necessary for Spike's evolution from a story-perspective. Spike could have never done the unthinkable without doing the unthinkable. Hurting Buffy was that for him. The Be All End All. The absolute worst possible thing he could do

But why does it have to be the 'absolute worst thing he can do'? Why must the show resort to an extremely obvious evil act? I mean, its not like us viewers, we are stupid or something. Not only does the AR make me throw every single feminist article in existence, every article about how such a scene would effect viewers, the grossness of using rape as a plot-device, every single anti- AR comment I've found on the internet in its face, but also my year 9 drama textbook...

In my first post on this thread, I wrote a short list of suitable replacements for Spike getting his soul. To add more: buffy asking Willow to re-ensoul him for a condition for him to hang out with the scoobies, to make giles more comfortable Spike babysitting Dawn, etc. Or in Crush, when Buffy turn him down. So there were other methods for Spike to achieve his soul. The writers could have, you know... thought for longer than five seconds.

 

[janas]

I see where you are coming from here but I view it as a bit more complicated than an expectation of immediate forgiveness (once he's souled mind you). First of all, when Buffy touches him he curls up his shoulders in discomfort and practically shrieks "am I flesh to you?" Then takes a second and concedes to what he believes she wants from him, (his body as she had in season 6; he of course later admits in season 7 that he didn't understand that she was using him until he had a soul and I think this exchange above is sort of the first glimpse we get of that realization). So the initiation of sex is more like a resignation to the role he had before, knowing now that it was not linked in any way to Buffy's love. Of course he'd misinterpreted the whole thing and Buffy (rightly) throws him across the room.

Have you ever witnessed a rape trial? The defense usually try to blame the woman, saying that "at the end was what she wanted, and maybe she liked it, maybe she even had an orgasm. Basically the fault is his, because, probably, she had seductive ways, maybe she was wearing a dress too succinct, and the male in front of a pair of tits can not resist ..because it's his nature" The defense, usually digs into the victim's past, to prove that his behavior triggered rape because in basically "women are all whores"

The scene that you have cited is terrible. Spike is blaming Buffy for the rape. To the damage it adds insult.

Spike: Hey, hey, hey! No touching. Am I flesh? Am I flesh to you? Feed on flesh. My flesh. Nothing else. Not a spark. Oh, fine. Flesh then. Solid through. (starts unzipping his pants) Get it hard; service the girl.
Buffy: Stop it!
Spike: Right. Girl doesn't want to be serviced. Because there's no spark. Ain't we in a soddin' engine?

I had forgotten how shit it was this scene.

 

[Lyri]

I honestly don't believe Spike went to get the soul thinking it would change him in an significant way other than the fact that it would change the way Buffy perceived him. He even seems shocked at the consequences of the soul, he clearly didn't go into it expecting to feel how he ends up feeling. The idea of a love that was worthy of Buffy comes after the soul, not before.

This. This is always how I perceived Spike getting a soul. Even back in those dark, dark days when I shipped Spuffy, I was always under the impression that Spike didn't think it through. He didn't realize what having a soul would do to him, the only thing he thought about was that it SHOULD make Buffy want to be with him.

To me, the story still reads that Spike got the soul because that's what he believed he needed to do to have sex with Buffy. It was an ends to a means, a knee jerk reaction, not an act of sincere regret or nobility.

Again, this. There was no thought put into it, it was a split second decision that came immediately off the back of Buffy pushing him away.

The topic wasn't ignored. Spike has addressed it.

Yes, SPIKE addressed it, but he SHOULD NOT be the person who's reaction we should be focused on coming out of that scene. NOT ONCE in the last year of that show, or in the comics, do we ever find out how BUFFY felt coming out of that scene. Even when Spike DOES address it, the scene is focused and written from HIS perspective, as if Buffy's thoughts and feelings don't matter. And that's CRAP.

As I've said many times before, I will always hate this scene because the victim gets ignored. Buffy's thoughts and feelings are pushed aside so that we can deal with poor little Spike. It's a joke, and I can only imagine it's because this scene was based on Marti Noxon's own personal experience of trying to force herself on someone and she only focused on how SHE felt coming out of that situation and never gave a second thought to what her ex-boyfriend might have been feeling at the time. Because, he's a guy, right?

 

[Robb Stark]

That's just posturing. Spike respects Buffy more than anyone he has ever known.

What in the world? Posturing? To whom? He had already made the decision to chase his soul, and at that point, it was just him in the cave with an ages-old demon. What did he have to posture about? I know the writers intended that scene as a big misdirect, but he still said what he said. Calling it posturing is just whitewashing to fit a certain narrative.

[MENTION=11014]Gum Gnome33[/MENTION],

I know it was a few pages back, but I felt like with the Angelus saga, they dealt extensively with Buffy's point of view, especially in S2 after it first happened. They went into great detail about how she was feeling and what she was going through.

 

[Gum Gnome33]

Have you ever witnessed a rape trial? The defense usually try to blame the woman, saying that "at the end was what she wanted, and maybe she liked it, maybe she even had an orgasm. Basically the fault is his, because, probably, she had seductive ways, maybe she was wearing a dress too succinct, and the male in front of a pair of tits can not resist ..because it's his nature" The defense, usually digs into the victim's past, to prove that his behavior triggered rape because in basically "women are all whores"

The scene that you have cited is terrible. Spike is blaming Buffy for the rape. To the damage it adds insult.

Spike: Hey, hey, hey! No touching. Am I flesh? Am I flesh to you? Feed on flesh. My flesh. Nothing else. Not a spark. Oh, fine. Flesh then. Solid through. (starts unzipping his pants) Get it hard; service the girl.
Buffy: Stop it!
Spike: Right. Girl doesn't want to be serviced. Because there's no spark. Ain't we in a soddin' engine?

I had forgotten how shit it was this scene.

Is the first paragraph there to educate me about the horror that is rape and the way in which far too often we, as a culture and a society, shamefully (at best) and disgustingly attempt to "deal" with the fallout and all the victim blaming that ensues? I'm well aware, thanks! I don't know what this has to do with the scene in the church.

In this scene, Spike is not blaming Buffy for what he did to her. His actions are not at all in reference to his attack, rather to their consensual physical relationship throughout season 6. He is remembering (and realizing for the first time now that he has a soul) that when she was with him physically throughout season 6, she didn't love him but merely wanted to "feel" something. "Am I flesh to you?" is a response to that. Then, he resigns himself to that role, ("fine, flesh then,") assuming in his compromised psychological state that it is the appropriate thing to do(have a consensual physical relationship with no love from Buffy) only to quickly realize that he'd misinterpreted her touch entirely.

By assuming that she wanted to have sex with him as she'd done in season 6, Spike is not by any means thinking of her as a "whore." He is utilizing his newly honed self deprecation which allows him to see clearly that Buffy didn't love him but rather thought of him as a pleasant distraction.

This is not Spike excusing what he did, blaming it on Buffy, or even addressing it.

Later of course, he does very clearly refer to his attack on her when he confesses that he got his soul to "be the kind of man who would never...to be a kind of man" and the implication is very clear. It's more than obvious that Spike blames no one but himself for his attack after he has his soul. Even while soulless it is very clear that Spike is disgusted with himself and acutely aware that he has no business trying to navigate morality as a "man" would while soulless; he acknowledges that he "can't be a man." His attack on Buffy makes that clear to him (throughout the season he'd been swearing that he didn't need a soul to be worthy of Buffy and now he understands on a very basic level that that isn't true). in the church scene it couldn't possibly be more evident to him that he did a horrible thing and begs for forgiveness so he can "rest."

[MENTION=11975]Robb Stark[/MENTION], yes it does get addressed thoroughly in season 2 in the sense that Buffy is immensely distressed and in pain over the fact that Angel has changed into a monster. That's my point: when she decides to forgive him and resume the relationship in season 3 we don't see this kind of perspective from her; we have the implicit forgiveness and the subsequent vehement defense to anyone who asks with regard to keeping him around and resuming the relationship. What we never see is what Buffy is feeling/thinking, or how she is making these kinds of decisions. We don't really deal with the trauma that inevitably comes from accepting someone into her life who looks and sounds and moves like her former attacker in different clothing.
I admitted in an earlier thread that I'm willing to accept that there are differences in the level of trauma with which she's dealing in this case as compared with those in season 7 after Spike returns since she'd established a relationship with Angel and not Angelus and it was easier to make a clean psychological disconnect between the two than it was with Spikeus/Spike. But that doesn't mean there was nothing significant for her to weigh and a need to do so in a healthy way which we never see.

Of course this is kind of super-speed "moving on" is part and parcel for the show--I mean it happens constantly. What I'm saying is that by season 7 there is a specific precedent for it with regard to Buffy resuming romantic relationships with newly ensouled vampires.

 

[Black Eye Guy]

I agree. I think the tricky thing is that the Spike of season 2 who I believe to be in a very different place emotionally, morally, developmentally than the Spike of season 6--most certainly detested the notion of a soul and thought it made Angel more disingenuous than anything else. But I believe that by the time he actually sought it out it meant something more to him in spite of the fact that he--still--didn't truly understand what having it would mean or that it was a true sacrifice to bear. It's like he was caught in the middle about everything: his understanding of right/wrong, his behavior, his understanding of a soul had all progressed to a more humanlike grasp on it all but didn't quite make the mark. So I concede that it wasn't yet a "sacrifice" but argue that it was more than the nothing it meant to him in season 2.

It just seems from the show that he had no idea what a soul meant, even after getting it he says "Angel—he should've warned me. He makes a good show of forgetting, but it's here, in me, all the time". So I can't give him credit for something he doesn't understand, nothing in the show points to him wanting to get a soul to feel bad for what he did, he wanted instant forgiveness and love, there just isn't a noble reason there as far as I can see.

I mostly agree with this but he did understand, if only intellectually, that a soul would permanently remove the demon from within (of course in the real world that's nonsense but in the 'verse there is much more of a black and white take on soul-having). He says, referring to his current state: "can't be a monster, can't be a man" which illustrates that awareness--and then chooses man over monster. Compared to what he could have done, (choose to commit to being a full-on monster with a modified diet or keep searching for a way to remove the chip) I think of his quest as noble, especially considering that the desire came from a soulless being, (again relativity is everything here).

I kinda agree with this part, but for me, he sees the monster or man, as labels, not a change. He doesn't believe anything will be other then in name he'll have a soul, so Buffy will love him, he basically says this. To be noble, he'd have to have wanted to be a man, not earn it as a glorified title.

I see where you are coming from here but I view it as a bit more complicated than an expectation of immediate forgiveness (once he's souled mind you). First of all, when Buffy touches him he curls up his shoulders in discomfort and practically shrieks "am I flesh to you?" Then takes a second and concedes to what he believes she wants from him, (his body as she had in season 6; he of course later admits in season 7 that he didn't understand that she was using him until he had a soul and I think this exchange above is sort of the first glimpse we get of that realization). So the initiation of sex is more like a resignation to the role he had before, knowing now that it was not linked in any way to Buffy's love. Of course he'd misinterpreted the whole thing and Buffy (rightly) throws him across the room.

About his expectations for forgiveness: I had a long back-and-forth with a less patient member a while ago about what I perceived to be a clear difference between expecting forgiveness and hoping for it. My read on season 7 Spike is that in the beginning of the season he is bouncing from incoherent to shameful and instead of assuming that Buffy will want to resume the relationship he clutches the cross in (what I interpret as) defeat and basically begs her to forgive him so that he can "rest." I interpret his need to "rest," ("can we rest now, Buffy? Can we rest?") as his newfound desire (thanks to the gnawing conscience) to find relief from the guilt he bears. When he collects himself and the season proceeds, he truly doesn't expect anything intimate from her but genuinely wants to help protect her from the big bad cookie monster that lives under the bed (sorry I think the First is so lame).


I agree that his desire to be around her is deeply rooted in selfishness and that does detract from the nobility of the sacrifice (which again is sort of a hard thing to qualify anyway since the true pain came after he was ensouled). But to that I have to shrug and wonder if it's ever to be considered less than admirable when a person wants to be around the woman he/she loves? I mean I think if he'd come back insisting that she forgive him, truly expecting it and maybe once living in her home again-- dropping hints like "baby I really think we should talk about US now that I'm basically human" while stroking her hair, THEN I'd say yes--gross, forget it. But he hopes, sure, maybe beyond hope that she'll forgive him. And the forgiveness he needs doesn't have to be in the form of a relationship either, which is also a check in the "good guy" category. He's happy to die once she's told him she loves him because at the very least it is a declaration of forgiveness which I believe is what he'd truly been looking for upon returning.

I completely agree with all this, I think once he gets the soul, he understands and grows but all of that is while souled. The only issue I have is with the idea of soulless spike going to get his soul as a noble act, when everything he says seems to indicate the opposite. I think I could accept that soulless Spike was expecting forgiveness and soul, while souled Spike by the end of Beneath You hopes for it. That to me, makes the action of getting the soul less noble as his reasons weren't noble, but then souled Spike does show a far better understanding of events, so... I maybe wouldn't call that noble, but I'd at least say it's massive growth in the right direction.

By the way I just wanted to say to you, [MENTION=5973]Black Eye Guy[/MENTION] and [MENTION=7585]Kean[/MENTION] thanks for being super classy and having this discussion with me! Though our opinions differ I find it all to be deeply entertaining and productive and talks such as these do a lot to build on my love for the show--I hope they do so for you, too!

I agree, I like debating the same issues once in a while, even if I have discussed them over and over, it's always interesting to revisit them!

Really? Fans have said this? Wow.

I doubt that's true.

Never underestimate a Spike-fans desire to justify Spikes actions. I've seen many people use these arguments, This thread from 2005 is the main one I'm thinking of, and tries to clear spikes actions for the "attempted rape" label because he's not human, so human terms shouldn't apply. By post 12 the original poster is saying that had it been attempted rape, Spike would have kept going after Buffy kicked him off, and the fact he doesn't means it wasn't!

I have to disagree here. Spike didn't get his soul to prove that she loved him. He got his soul so she could. There's a difference. He got his soul so he could be the kind of man worthy of her love. He said so himself.

Can you quote that to me? This is the exact evidence I've been asking for afrom a few pages back, cuz everything he says during the attempted rape is about how she loves him, and once they have sex it will prove it. Then in the aftermath he says she thinks she's better then him, so wouldn't admit she loved him. Then after being souled he says he got the soul, so she wouldn't feel love, but instead it didn't change her, it changed him. Everything he actually says in the script points to him believing, he was already good, he'd get his soul, he'd be no different and Buffy would have to admit she loved him. Then after getting a soul he actually realizes what getting a soul means.

That's just posturing. Spike respects Buffy more than anyone he has ever known.

This drives me mad, what other moment in the show do people just disregard what the character actually says to fit with what they want to believe. Everything the characters say, make up that character, if your not happy with it, doesn't just nullify that he said it.

This. This is always how I perceived Spike getting a soul. Even back in those dark, dark days when I shipped Spuffy, I was always under the impression that Spike didn't think it through. He didn't realize what having a soul would do to him, the only thing he thought about was that it SHOULD make Buffy want to be with him.

This is an interesting point, I totally agree that it was an instant snap judgement, and a way to be forgiven. But for those why dont believe it to be that, why isn't the question asked why he hadn't already gone to get his soul, if he was truly noble he would have wanted his soul, not gone to get it after he'd done something terrible. If it wasn't a snap judgment he must have know how to get his soul before an chose not to.