Spuffy #5 - General Discussion

[StarSlayer]

I came across this dallie the other day from "As You Were" that showed a totally different side to the Buffy/Spike break-up scene. The quality is not that great and the shots aren't close-up, but if you listen to their emotions, especially the second take with SMG, I just think that would have been an interesting choice for the scene. (Hope it's ok to post this).

http://www.videos.smg-france.net/play.php?vid=388

 

[zobothehobo]

Oh wow. That's really interesting I cried during that second take. I kinda wish they'd gone with it, it was moving, and touching... and I felt REALLY bad for Buffy. It really conveyed how badly she wanted to be weak and selfish... I love it.

 

[StarSlayer]

I cried too. 🙁 I think it also showed how Buffy felt not only sad that she was using Spike, but hurt that she couldn't love him or be with him (she's the slayer, he's a soulless vampire). I sympathized for her a lot more for some reason.

 

[prophecygrrl]

I cried too. 🙁 I think it also showed how Buffy felt not only sad that she was using Spike, but hurt that she couldn't love him or be with him (she's the slayer, he's a soulless vampire). I sympathized for her a lot more for some reason.

She sounded like she was holding back tears in that scene! 🙁 And Spike, too. (that whispered "Not really complaining here"...gah. 🙁)
I'd always been sympathetic towards Spike in that scene (for obvious reasons lol), but seeing Buffy like this hurts too. It seems like it's so much harder for her to let go than the actual break-up scene in 'As You Were' would suggest. If the second take had made it onto the episode, I actually think I would've seen their post-break up interactions a bit differently. I mean, we get to see a lot of Spike's frustration and his pain, but not so much Buffy's. Instead, we see Buffy being strong, a bit harsh towards Spike, guarded, etc. I think I would have been able to understand her actions a bit more if I'd seen just how hard it was for her to break up with Spike in the first place. Does this make sense? I'm rambling a bit, sorry. 😱

On another note, I finally got one of my friends to start watching Buffy! I just asked her how she felt about Spuffy (she's just about to start OMWF, actually!), and it turns out...she's a Spuffy shipper!!

I'm so excited. I don't know many Buffy fans in real life, let alone ones that are Spuffy shippers. Eee. 😀

 

[Tranquillity]

I always think that when Buffy says "I can't love you..." in As You Were, that those words are steeped in double meaning.

On one level she means "can't" in the sense that she is incapable of loving Spike because of what he is. But on another level she means "can't" in the sense that she's not allowed to love him because of what she is.

It gets me every time.

 

[prophecygrrl]

In one of the metas Moscow Watcher recommended, the author talked about how the "No, you don't" in 'Chosen' might have been Spike making a joke, or at least finding some humor/irony in the situation:

And someone said recently, and I’m inclined to agree, that Spike’s “No you don’t but thanks for saying it” was, in part, a joke. A JOKE. That he was teasing Buffy for all the times that she denied his love for her. At this moment, the most important moment they’ll ever share, she’s expressing her love with words—because that’s what he needs more than anything—and he’s expressing his love with a joke because that’s what she needs more than anything. She’d let the walls down again—just like she had in that abandoned house in Touched—and if he didn’t help her rebuild them a little, she would drown in the emotion.

There's a really fascinating discussion about this in the comments on that journal entry, and I'm wonder what y'all think about this?

I'd personally never thought of it like that, and after re-watching the scene in Chosen I feel like whether or not it's a joke could go both ways.

 

[StarSlayer]

There's a really fascinating discussion about this in the comments on that journal entry, and I'm wonder what y'all think about this?

I'd personally never thought of it like that, and after re-watching the scene in Chosen I feel like whether or not it's a joke could go both ways.

It's weird because while I don't think it was a joke in a "Haha, very funny" kind of way, I do think think it was partly a joke in a more subtle way because Buffy said the exact same thing to him in "Dead Things." And when Spike said it here, I think he was playing on that. He was playing a little bit on how Buffy would always deny her feelings for him. So, I think Spike was trying to bring some humor to this tragic moment in order to ease Buffy's pain a little, although I still strongly think he believed her when she said "I love you." Plus, I think that works well with the idea that Spike couldn't accept Buffy's love at this moment because she needed to go on living. Humor can be used to allow the other person to let go.

 

[zobothehobo]

I think I really should read these metas instead of letting them sit in extra tabs on my browser... It's Friday, I don't have class.. maybe today

 

[Tranquillity]

New questions...

1. In the Girl in Question Andrew told Spike (and Angel) to "move on and you might catch her one day" Do you think this was good advice? Are we seeing Spike do that now? What are the implications for the future?

2. Did your support of Spike/Buffy waver at any point in the series (TV or comics)?

3. Prior to Season 6, do you think there was a believable time at which Buffy and Spike could have started a relationship without Buffy dying/getting resurrected and everything else that followed?

4. What do you think was Buffy's biggest "green-eyed" moment, where Spike is concerned? Spike's, where Buffy is concerned?

5. Do you think Buffy and Spike have a residual kinky streak, post-Season 6, or was that specific to the circumstances?

Answer any or all 🙂

 

[Carrrrgh]

2. Did your support of Spike/Buffy waver at any point in the series (TV or comics)?

I always was a spuffy fan, not once did I change my mind about them. From the time he has that dream in "out of my mind" I wanted them to be together forever 🙂

3. Prior to Season 6, do you think there was a believable time at which Buffy and Spike could have started a relationship without Buffy dying/getting resurrected and everything else that followed?

Ummm, yes I do think so but only if Buffy wasn't so cruel to him in season 5. Instead of being creeped out by Spike she should have just taken more time to get to know and trust him before automatically thinking his love is unrealistic. Another perfect moment for them to start a relationship would be when Buffy portrays the BuffyBot and gives Spike a real Buffy kiss. I think at that moment she started to have feelings for him.

5. Do you think Buffy and Spike have a residual kinky streak, post-Season 6, or was that specific to the circumstances?

Uh definitely not. Well maybe actually but this would be in the far future once their relationship progresses. Post season 6 I think the Spuffy relationship is extremely tender and loving, nothing that would remind Buffy of the way Spike used to hurt her and vise versa. Things might get a little kinky down the line though, when they can finally look back and smile on all the experiences they shared together. (I havent gone past season 7 so I don't have any knowledge of their actual post-Season 6/7 relationship)

 

[StarSlayer]

1. In the Girl in Question Andrew told Spike (and Angel) to "move on and you might catch her one day" Do you think this was good advice? Are we seeing Spike do that now? What are the implications for the future?

Oh my gosh, I love this scene so much. 🙂 I love when Andrew says, "Buffy loves both of you," Angel glances at Spike. He looks at Spike! Angel knows Buffy loves Spike ("He is in my heart"), so it's really nothing new to him. But, Spike's reaction upon hearing it, he's in his own thoughts. It's like he realizes Buffy does love him, after all the doubt Angel was giving him (in this episode and earlier). But, there shouldn't be any doubt now. He needs to remember what happened in the Hellmouth (cause I really think he believed her there).

In that sense, I do think Andrew's advice is good because it gives Spike the confidence he needs to be his own man. It sucks that Buffy's with the Immortal, as he thinks. So, in the meantime, he'll figure out who he is. I think he's done that through the comics. Now, I think Spike is in a prime position to catch Buffy, since she's fallen very hard after the events of s8.

2. Did your support of Spike/Buffy waver at any point in the series (TV or comics)

*Sigh* It did at one point. Don't hate me. 🙁 After the bathroom scene, I was unsure if I could continue to support Buffy and Spike. I wanted to so badly, but I didn't know. I had to see what happened in season 7. And "Beneath You" restored me. I was back to fully supporting Buffy and Spike. 🙂

3. Prior to Season 6, do you think there was a believable time at which Buffy and Spike could have started a relationship without Buffy dying/getting resurrected and everything else that followed?

Definitely, specifically after "Intervention." Buffy saw a completely different side to Spike, one that was loyal and loving. She was so moved that she kissed him. I think she was developing feelings for him at that point, which would have led into something very believable.

4. What do you think was Buffy's biggest "green-eyed" moment, where Spike is concerned? Spike's, where Buffy is concerned?

For Buffy, I'm gonna say the moment she saw Spike and Faith sitting together. I mean Buffy doesn't really like Faith to begin with. So, to see her with Spike and actually seem to get along, Buffy got visibly jealous. Spike even noticed because he started to feel uncomfortable, lol!

For Spike, when he sees Buffy kiss Angel. Like Spike, Buffy felt uncomfortable when he said he saw it. I like how both Buffy and Spike feel bad about the situations, since they're still trying to figure out their relationship with each other. It then all leads to some good cuddling in "Chosen." 🙂

5. Do you think Buffy and Spike have a residual kinky streak, post-Season 6, or was that specific to the circumstances?

Hmmm, interesting. Maybe, but it wouldn't be as destructive as it was in season 6 at times. Like, I don't think they would beat each other up. They had moved way past that.

 

[Abbeycat]

1. In the Girl in Question Andrew told Spike (and Angel) to "move on and you might catch her one day" Do you think this was good advice? Are we seeing Spike do that now? What are the implications for the future? Maybe at that moment, it was good advice.

2. Did your support of Spike/Buffy waver at any point in the series (TV or comics)? No.

3. Prior to Season 6, do you think there was a believable time at which Buffy and Spike could have started a relationship without Buffy dying/getting resurrected and everything else that followed? I'm not sure.

4. What do you think was Buffy's biggest "green-eyed" moment, where Spike is concerned? Spike's, where Buffy is concerned?

5. Do you think Buffy and Spike have a residual kinky streak, post-Season 6, or was that specific to the circumstances?

 

[zobothehobo]

1. In the Girl in Question Andrew told Spike (and Angel) to "move on and you might catch her one day" Do you think this was good advice? Are we seeing Spike do that now? What are the implications for the future?

I think it was a great advice. Buffy wasn't going to respond to either one of them pining over her and trying to make it happen. That was the whole point of the cookie dough speech to me... she was saying "I'm not ready yet to end up with who I'm going to end up with. Which is why I'm not making forever last. If we're meant to be, we should just live our lives and we'll come back together." And yes, I think we saw Spike do that... I mean I didn't read the Angel comics but it seems to me from where he entered in season 8, he's pretty damn established as himself apart from Buffy. Sure he didn't move on with another girl (again as far as I know, I haven't read the Angel comics), but he did move on personally... And I think he's stronger for it. I think their relationship will be stronger for it. He's established himself away from her. Which means he's better prepared to be there for her in every way he knows how while at the same time, being there for himself. That IMO was one of the biggest problems with Bangel... Angel didn't know how to be there for her and himself at the same time. Now Spike is better prepared to do both.

2. Did your support of Spike/Buffy waver at any point in the series (TV or comics)?

Yes. When I was done with the series for the first two times I was not a Spuffy. If you asked me "which do you prefer, Spuffy or Bangel?" I would have said "Spuffy" without thought. But if you asked me what's my favorite ship, I wouldn't have answered Spuffy. It's like the question in this meta/LJ post. I'm a Spike person. While I do consider myself to be a Spuffy love child (mix between Spike's and Buffy's personalities), I am more Spike than Buffy. So I relate to him more and I sympathize with him more. It was very hard for me to really see the beauty in Spuffy at first because I felt like Buffy didn't treat him the way he deserved to be treated (I still don't to an extent). It's still really hard for me to see the things Spike does wrong in the relationship... 'cause I probably would have done everything he did.

3. Prior to Season 6, do you think there was a believable time at which Buffy and Spike could have started a relationship without Buffy dying/getting resurrected and everything else that followed?

Yup. After Intevention I think that was a believable time for a relationship to happen.

5. Do you think Buffy and Spike have a residual kinky streak, post-Season 6, or was that specific to the circumstances?

I like to believe that was part of what made them them. I mean I want them to have the sweet tender love making too... but Spuffy wouldn't be Spuffy IMO without the kinkiness.

 

[WakingNightmare]

1. In the Girl in Question Andrew told Spike (and Angel) to "move on and you might catch her one day" Do you think this was good advice? Are we seeing Spike do that now? What are the implications for the future?
I think it was great advice and really spoke to what Spike needed to do in S5. Unlike most Spuffy shippers, I'm really glad he didn't go back to Buffy (just dropping her a line to let her know he was okay wouldn't have hurt though...) right away. Spike allowed his love for Buffy consume his entire life, which is never healthy, and in S5 you can really see the writers trying to pull him away from that and it's showing in S8. He didn't really move on from her completely (why should he need to?) but he stopped letting her revolve around everything he did. It's clear that he was trying to do it in S5 and by the looks of S8 he's achieved it. Good for him 😀

2. Did your support of Spike/Buffy waver at any point in the series (TV or comics)?
Yeah. Alot. In S6, mostly. Dead Things and Seeing Red left me with some odd feelings about how I felt about them.

3. Prior to Season 6, do you think there was a believable time at which Buffy and Spike could have started a relationship without Buffy dying/getting resurrected and everything else that followed?
Yhea, I think so, definitely. In Intervention Buffy clearly saw that there was good in Spike and that he did genuinely love her. For Spike and Buffy getting together without the circumstances of S6 I think there would have to be a lot of Buffy getting to know Spike as a person. I think, in S6, Buffy's in this place where, if Spike were just some human guy, she'd have no problem with dating him. If he got under her skin then, he could do it again, any other time.

4. What do you think was Buffy's biggest "green-eyed" moment, where Spike is concerned? Spike's, where Buffy is concerned?
Getting all jealous of Dru and Angel in Something Blue. It's not there biggest, but it is there sweetest 😀 Really, for Buffy it would be seeing him flirt with Faith on the cot (she was genuinely in love with him, so it's kinda a given) and for Spike, anytime the word Angel cropped up. Watching Buffy snog him didn't help either. Like I replied on the first question, I'm glad that Spike's moved out of that place, where he feels that he'll never really be the guy Buffy wants and that he'll always be second best to Angel.

5. Do you think Buffy and Spike have a residual kinky streak, post-Season 6, or was that specific to the circumstances?
Why on earth not? (sw)

 

[StarSlayer]

I'm a Spike person. While I do consider myself to be a Spuffy love child (mix between Spike's and Buffy's personalities), I am more Spike than Buffy. So I relate to him more and I sympathize with him more. It was very hard for me to really see the beauty in Spuffy at first because I felt like Buffy didn't treat him the way he deserved to be treated (I still don't to an extent). It's still really hard for me to see the things Spike does wrong in the relationship... 'cause I probably would have done everything he did.

That is so funny because I think I'm more of a Buffy person than a Spike person. I still sympathize with both characters, and I think equally at times. But, I like Buffy a little bit more. Even in s6, when she treats him badly, I know it's partly because she's depressed from being torn out of heaven. I think she didn't want to behave like a monster toward Spike, as shown in "Dead Things" when she knows using him is wrong. And I really sympathize with her there.

 

[xaphania]

Guess what? Today's daily IMDB poll has the following question:

Which of these couples, featured in a TV series that aired in the last decade and destined to be together, is your favorite?

And the BtVS couple is not Buffy/Angel! *\o/* Most of the time these lists and polls ignore Spuffy and only focus on Bangel. It's Buffy/Spike. 😀

http://www.imdb.com/poll/

Go vote!

 

[zobothehobo]

That is so funny because I think I'm more of a Buffy person than a Spike person. I still sympathize with both characters, and I think equally at times. But, I like Buffy a little bit more. Even in s6, when she treats him badly, I know it's partly because she's depressed from being torn out of heaven. I think she didn't want to behave like a monster toward Spike, as shown in "Dead Things" when she knows using him is wrong. And I really sympathize with her there.

I can and I do sympathize with Buffy too... Dead Things is an example where I sympathize with both of them equally. OMWF is an example of an episode I sympathize with Buffy more than any other character. but I sympathize with Spike more. and it's easier for me too see Spike's side of things than Buffy's. just in general, not even about their relationship.

 

[Gum Gnome33]

In one of the metas Moscow Watcher recommended, the author talked about how the "No, you don't" in 'Chosen' might have been Spike making a joke, or at least finding some humor/irony in the situation:

I'd personally never thought of it like that, and after re-watching the scene in Chosen I feel like whether or not it's a joke could go both ways.

Sorry guys, I know we moved past this idea in this discussion thread, but I just wanted to add my thoughts real quick. I love the idea of thinking of it as a bit of a joke--or, rather, Spike's sense of humor as it relates to their relationship. I also love the idea that he was telling her this because it's what she needed to hear in order to leave him and save herself.
I think it might be a bit of both, and I'd like to add the idea that perhaps it was coming from a place of deep self deprecation. I think it's in Never Leave Me when he explains to Buffy that one of the most burdensome aspects of having a soul is the self realization it provides. He says that without a soul, as evil as he was, he never truly hated himself. And I think that by Chosen, he's still in the beginning of the long process of adjusting to the pangs of self reflection. When he says "no you don't," perhaps he's projecting.
One of the most poignant differences for me in the Spuffy of season 7 versus season 6 is that in 6, while we all know Spike loves Buffy, he also loves himself. He sees himself as a fitting mate for Buffy because he thinks he's as awesome as she is. In 7, it REALLY hits him that for the better part of the last century and a half he's been a schmuck, (well, okay, a murderous villain). Sometimes it's difficult to believe that someone loves you when you don't love yourself.
Now, I'm not saying outright that he doesn't believe that she loves him. Somewhere in there, he does. It's just so clear--in her eyes, her smile, her touch. But it's complicated. The voice of doubt took over in that moment. Just a thought!

 

[Tranquillity]

1. In the Girl in Question Andrew told Spike (and Angel) to "move on and you might catch her one day" Do you think this was good advice? Are we seeing Spike do that now? What are the implications for the future?

Pretty good advice really (except for the fact that it was Andrew giving it) and I think we've seen Spike 'move on' - he certainly did in After the Fall and in his own comic series. Spike is his own man and when he finally came into the Buffy comic he was not there just to chase her and he had more going on in his life than living for the day that he and the Slayer would get back together. I think that bodes well for the future - Buffy is always gonna be more interested in someone who is self-assured, confident and strong. He doesn't need to "catch her" - he's walking right beside her now.

2. Did your support of Spike/Buffy waver at any point in the series (TV or comics)?

I can't think of a time - but to be fair, when I first watched the show (on original airing), Australia (where I live) was about five months behind and I used to read spoilers on the internet . . . so while I knew that bad things were coming (I'm thinking of seeing red and conversations with dead people particularly), by the time I actually saw the episodes, I also knew that good things were going to follow (like the soul and the season seven relationship). So no, my support of Spuffy never waivered.

3. Prior to Season 6, do you think there was a believable time at which Buffy and Spike could have started a relationship without Buffy dying/getting resurrected and everything else that followed?

I was going to answer "no" to this one but you've all convinved me that a relationship could have started after Intervention 🙂

4. What do you think was Buffy's biggest "green-eyed" moment, where Spike is concerned? Spike's, where Buffy is concerned?

Faith on the cot is a big one for sure but my favourite is the Hell's Bells scene. Buffy's jelousy is constrained, but it is there. And her very bitter "didn't take you long to move on" after his encounter with Anya speaks volumes too.

for Spike, his biggest jealous moment is when he tells Riley how envious he is of him.

"Sometimes I envy you so much it chokes me. And sometimes I think I got the better deal. To be that close to her and not have her. To be all alone even when you're holding her. Feeling her, feeling her beneath you. Surrounding you. The scent ... No, you got the better deal."

That would be my favourite Riley scene ever.

5. Do you think Buffy and Spike have a residual kinky streak, post-Season 6, or was that specific to the circumstances?

Residual streak for sure!

 

[Moscow Watcher]

1. In the Girl in Question Andrew told Spike (and Angel) to "move on and you might catch her one day" Do you think this was good advice? Are we seeing Spike do that now? What are the implications for the future?

Good advice. Buffy always strives for unattainable. That's what kept Angel special in her eyes. As soon as Spike becomes unattainable, she will start pining for him. [/cynical]

2. Did your support of Spike/Buffy waver at any point in the series (TV or comics)?

A year ago, when Dark Horse was hyping Bangel like crazy, I had the impression that Joss has given up the franchise and passed the reins to Allie, who, in turn, revamps the series as a Stephenie Meyer wannabe. It was a period of doubt. Thankfully, I was wrong.

3. Prior to Season 6, do you think there was a believable time at which Buffy and Spike could have started a relationship without Buffy dying/getting resurrected and everything else that followed?

Hardly. Unless Joss could come up with another twist to make it heartbreaking and angsty beyond measure.

4. What do you think was Buffy's biggest "green-eyed" moment, where Spike is concerned? Spike's, where Buffy is concerned?

Buffy - when she sees Spike and Anya in "Entropy." SMG played it perfectly - it's all in her eyes.

Spike - in "Chosen", when he punches the bag with Angel's pic on it.

5. Do you think Buffy and Spike have a residual kinky streak, post-Season 6, or was that specific to the circumstances?

My Buffy will always have a kinky streak! I mean, she dreams about a threesome with her in a nurse uniform! 🙂

~~~~~~~~~~~~

BTW, Gabrielleabelle has a poll on souls and Spuffy
http://gabrielleabelle.livejournal.com/295580.html?style=mine