Spuffy #7 - General Discussion

[WileyDairyGnome]

I knowwww! I kinda spazzed seeing his face on a disk, and I got all excited only to realize that he is in one episode. My sister thinks I am crazy. I am majorly considering watching while she is out of the house. She will neverrrrr know.

Do it! Do it! She'll never know! 😉

 

[AlyInWonderland]

Do it! Do it! She'll never know! 😉

YAY PEER PRESSURE! I am doing it. I kinda want to finish out season 3 but I also kinda want to just get to the first Spike episode of season 4. *sigh* I think I will try to continue my rewatch and just be a little patient. Plus, I can always have full out marathons and not sleep.

 

[WileyDairyGnome]

YAY PEER PRESSURE! I am doing it. I kinda want to finish out season 3 but I also kinda want to just get to the first Spike episode of season 4. *sigh* I think I will try to continue my rewatch and just be a little patient. Plus, I can always have full out marathons and not sleep.

Hell yes, it's summer! Summer was made to have Buffy marathons and not sleep. 🙂

 

[wickedtiger86]

Haha! I just finished season three in my rewatch and I'm so so glad.

The whole time I was thinking about Spike and how much I missed him.

Plus since I'm a super Spuffy now I'm going to be watching how he interacts with Buffy very very closely on this rewatch, which is something that I haven't really done before.
Last time I watched the series the whole way through, was the first time that I saw the Spuffy relationship evolve so yeah.

Super excited to be watching it again!!!

 

[AlyInWonderland]

Hell yes, it's summer! Summer was made to have Buffy marathons and not sleep. 🙂

Good! Then it is settled then! I got like a month left of summer. Gotta get all the Buffyness out of it that I can!

I feel like i should say something spuffy related to be slightly closer to being on topic. I am trying to think of when it is the first time that it was obvious that spike had feelings for her. I mean before he has his buffy dream.

 

[wickedtiger86]

Good! Then it is settled then! I got like a month left of summer. Gotta get all the Buffyness out of it that I can!

I feel like i should say something spuffy related to be slightly closer to being on topic. I am trying to think of when it is the first time that it was obvious that spike had feelings for her. I mean before he has his buffy dream.

That is what I want to be looking for on this rewatch. That's it exactly. I'd like to see any hints of his feelings before the dream.

Though I did notice that he didn't act disgusted to be kissing Buffy at the end of Something Blue until she started freaking out. . . so there is that. 😀

 

[WileyDairyGnome]

I think Spike started having feelings when Faith in Buffy's body put a move on him. He had a look like he wanted to make a move but didn't know if he should.

 

[svp]

Ever since he saw her dancing at the Bronze, there's always been that undercurrent of sexual tension. I think Spike was attracted to Buffy right from the start, he just never realized quite how deeply it went until his epiphany/(wet) dream at the beginning of season 5.

 

[wickedtiger86]

I think Spike started having feelings when Faith in Buffy's body put a move on him. He had a look like he wanted to make a move but didn't know if he should.

Was just going to rep you but I can't twice in a row. *sad face

Yeah, this did really force him to admit to himself that he was attracted to her, which I think is why he reacted so violently and threw that bottle at the wall right after she left. That scene is intense.

 

[AlyInWonderland]

oooo all good thoughts! Yeah his first viewing of her, it always looked like, to me, more than him just checking out the competition.

 

[nmcil12]

Yeah, I love that!

So, I'm on season 6 (just watched tabula rosa) on my re-watch... and I'm trying to see their dynamic through a different lens... because I tend to get so frustrated with buffy's continual denial of her feelings...

I really think it's the soul thing... for whatever reason buffy thinks that because he doesn't have one that he can't be "human"...or that he really is a monster. and yet, she's drawn to him so she fights it.

we'll see how this goes.

From my perspective, even after all this time and such great analysis from different the viewers and current fans, it still all goes back to her Angel/Angelus experience. From the very first "morning after" with Spike - Buffy spoke the truth, IMVHO, of how deeply she has been traumatized from her first love. Buffy, from how I interpreted season 6, set up the parameters for how this was all going to go down, everything from her "I will kill you if you tell anyone" to her gut wrenching stake to the heart "you're just convenient" shows what I see as all the inner demons and horrors that still live in her mind and heart.

Season 6 had them go from that beautiful scene and the awesome counting of the days that she has been gone, pass the early phase where Buffy was looking for Spike to be her doctor and fix her life, and the literal crashing down of that abandoned building and the following meltdown of Buffy and Spike as lovers. But, I really do believe that it all goes back to Buffy-Angel and how she was always desperate and insisted that they were not the same entity. Spike cannot be even remotely be equal or similar to Angel and still allow her to maintain her world or a way to deal with what has to be great guilt for not being able to do her Slayer duty when she should have.

Going with the mentioned metaphor of the stairways - another very important stairway metaphor, which I think many viewers and fans don't get or want to acknowledge is from the infamous balcony sex "you belong in the dark" scene. This is always brought up as one of the major factors of showing how bad and what a miserable evil prick Spike is. But I believe that this scene is much more about Buffy and what is in her mind, not just a reflection of Spike. Take a look at all the visuals in this episode - where is Buffy just before she goes up those stairs? She is sitting at the bar, the place where people drink to numb their minds or escape their pain. This scene, IMO, is just as much about all the inner demons that are alive and destroying Buffy as it is about their destructive relationship. Indeed, from my perspective of Season 6, It is primarily a reflection of Buffy's emotional trauma and current state of mind than anything else. Why would Spike need to draw Buffy away from her friends to live in his dark world? Buffy comes to him all the time, what Spike wants is to join her world of light and friendships, he does not want to be her dirty secret.

 

[Gum Gnome33]

From the very first "morning after" with Spike - Buffy spoke the truth, IMVHO, of how deeply she has been traumatized from her first love. Buffy set up the parameters for how this was all going to go down, everything from her "I will kill you if you tell anyone" to her gut wrenching stake to the heart "you're just convenient" shows what I see as all the inner demons and horrors that still live in her mind and heart.

Fascinating points! I never thought about the parallels, there. I think one could even go as far as to say that her defense mechanism is to preemptively be to Spike what Angel(us) was to her, the morning after. Instead of waiting for the soulless vampire to make his first move against her, she takes action against this soulless vampire, simultaneously protecting herself and confronting her own guilt.

Why would Spike need to draw Buffy away from her friends to live in his dark world? Buffy comes to him all the time, what Spike wants is to join her world of light and friendships, he does not want to be her dirty secret.

This is exactly how I feel about this scene. Spike is not forcing her to do anything, but merely acknowledging that she comes to him, to be away from her friends--because he's already tried having a relationship with her in the light of day, and she's refused it. He feels his best bet for continuing their intimate relationship is to convince her that they belong in the dark together, because so far it's been working.

 

[zobothehobo]

All this talk about how the balcony scene isn't about Spike forcing Buffy into the dark, but rather him acknowledging that's what she's doing and commenting on it... makes me feel good. I thought I was the only one who saw that. Spike's a lot lighter than people think... even in his darkest hour, he's lighter than a lot of people. And I think a large part of the destructive relationship (on his side) in that season (including that scene) is Spike trying to give Buffy what she wants. And that's why when she breaks up with him in As You Were, he really doesn't get it. That's part of why he's so frustrated for the rest of the season. And the worst part, is he can't articulate it... partially, I think, because he doesn't know how.. and partially, because he knows that's be basically blaming Buffy for his dark behavior and he doesn't want her to have that on her.

 

[wickedtiger86]

All this talk about how the balcony scene isn't about Spike forcing Buffy into the dark, but rather him acknowledging that's what she's doing and commenting on it... makes me feel good. I thought I was the only one who saw that. Spike's a lot lighter than people think... even in his darkest hour, he's lighter than a lot of people. And I think a large part of the destructive relationship (on his side) in that season (including that scene) is Spike trying to give Buffy what she wants. And that's why when she breaks up with him in As You Were, he really doesn't get it. That's part of why he's so frustrated for the rest of the season. And the worst part, is he can't articulate it... partially, I think, because he doesn't know how.. and partially, because he knows that's be basically blaming Buffy for his dark behavior and he doesn't want her to have that on her.

Yes to all of this. This is exactly what I think about the rest of season six. I firmly believe that if Buffy hadn't reacted the way she did at the beginning, telling Spike that he was just convenient, then their entire relationship would have been totally different.

I mean seriously look at everything that he did and said before they consummated their relationship. A person who is totally immersed in darkness, trying to get his lover to join them, doesn't really act like that, so that can't be what it's about.

There would have to be a different motivation and I've settled on what you guys have. He was just trying to be what Buffy wanted at the time. And really the whole idea isn't about Buffy being brought to the darkness, but Spike's progression into the light, which someone else said here, and I can't remember who but it was AWESOME.

And I definitely agree about him being unable to articulate it because he didn't want to put it on Buffy.

*Le sigh . . . I just want to get to these episodes in my rewatch!!!! It's so far away!

 

[AlyInWonderland]

The whole darkness and light aspect to Buffy's and Spike's relationship has always been intriguing. I agree with those who have said that Spike doesn't want to bring Buffy down into the darkness. He loves the light in her and admires it. I think the scene in ahhh the gift (?) where Spike is standing outside Buffy's door because she had revoked his invitation and he makes the comment about how she can never love him, but she treats him like a man, and that is good enough for him (forgive me if that is slightly off, I haven't gotten there in my rewatch yet)...anywho, that whole comment to me proves that Spike wants to be more than the darkness. He is amazed at how well Buffy treats him (and others) even though he doesn't deserve it.

*Le sigh . . . I just want to get to these episodes in my rewatch!!!! It's so far away!

I KNOW! I am still on season 3, sigh....

 

[WileyDairyGnome]

*Le sigh . . . I just want to get to these episodes in my rewatch!!!! It's so far away!

You're getting there! 😀 Just keep watching it when you're sister's not around, heheh.

 

[Moscow Watcher]

New Joss interview
http://www.fearnet.com/videos/b23317_joss_whedon_comic_con_2011_interview.html

Joss says that Spuffy fans will be happy to hear that Joss said Buffy and Spike will be spending a lot of time together and that those two are very fun together. Joss calls them "gold!"


Fan Boy Comics interviews Andrew Chambliss
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WhHGGVM2yqI"]‪Andrew Chambliss Exclusive.mp4‬‏ - YouTube[/ame]

At 7.20 Chambliss is asked if he is a very big fan of Spike and he says that he is. Then the interviewer tells him that the fanbase, especially Spike's, felt that season 8 didn't have enough of him and he agrees. Then he says that Spike is a big presence in season 9, a lot of people came down hard on Buffy for destroying the seed but Spike wasn't one of them. So in a lot of ways he is the person that she can turn to and the person that is always gonna be there for her.
- The interviewer says that it is gonna be like season 6, two people alone that can relate to each other and he waves his head in positive way like saying yes.
- He says that he loves the dynamic between Buffy and Spike in season 6 and hopefully he can find a way to explore some of the same things, where they are both right now.

 

[Chosen Enemy]

New Joss interview
http://www.fearnet.com/videos/b23317_joss_whedon_comic_con_2011_interview.html

Joss says that Spuffy fans will be happy to hear that Joss said Buffy and Spike will be spending a lot of time together and that those two are very fun together. Joss calls them "gold!"


Fan Boy Comics interviews Andrew Chambliss
‪Andrew Chambliss Exclusive.mp4‬‏ - YouTube

At 7.20 Chambliss is asked if he is a very big fan of Spike and he says that he is. Then the interviewer tells him that the fanbase, especially Spike's, felt that season 8 didn't have enough of him and he agrees. Then he says that Spike is a big presence in season 9, a lot of people came down hard on Buffy for destroying the seed but Spike wasn't one of them. So in a lot of ways he is the person that she can turn to and the person that is always gonna be there for her.
- The interviewer says that it is gonna be like season 6, two people alone that can relate to each other and he waves his head in positive way like saying yes.
- He says that he loves the dynamic between Buffy and Spike in season 6 and hopefully he can find a way to explore some of the same things, where they are both right now.

That warms my Spuffy heart :heart: and I have very good hopes for them in season 9. I'm guessing it won't be exactly like season 6, with the destructive sex and all. But I'm hoping for some good connection between them!

 

[kittenpoker]

Fascinating points! I never thought about the parallels, there. I think one could even go as far as to say that her defense mechanism is to preemptively be to Spike what Angel(us) was to her, the morning after. Instead of waiting for the soulless vampire to make his first move against her, she takes action against this soulless vampire, simultaneously protecting herself and confronting her own guilt.

That's really interesting, and helpful for me.

 

[Gum Gnome33]

And that's why when she breaks up with him in As You Were, he really doesn't get it. That's part of why he's so frustrated for the rest of the season.

Yes, exactly. I have to say--I truly love Buffy but this is, (in my view) an all time low for her. I understand why she ended their intimate relationship. It wasn't working at the time, (though of course I want and believe that it will in the future!) But the way she does it--the things she says--show that she doesn't understand what Spike was trying to do for her, and that was always hard to watch. When she breaks up with him, she tells him that it's her fault, really, because she knows "what he is;" (implying low, pathetic, "evil,") and that she was merely using him.
But by that moment in "As You Were," we have seen Spike do so many good--even great things for Buffy and for others. We've seen the two of them build a rapport, and we've seen him become a better being as he is pulled in further every day by her lightness. Because of this insane and reprehensible plot line with "the doctor," Buffy seemingly forgets all of the goodness and is back to labeling Spike as "soulless." "Nothing."
We, the audience, are supposed to see this as well. I never bought it. I always thought it was one of the worst things that the writers ever did on this show: build up a character, make us fall in love with his story of redemption, then knock him back down to nothing all the while trying to manipulate us into forgetting that he was ever anything more than a creature that should have been staked ages ago.

Inexcusable. "As You Were" is my least favorite episode, right behind "The Pack."