The Biting Scene

[Priceless]

That's because she was the Vampire Whisperer.

Indeed she was, it's a much less known Slayer power

 

[Skanky Vamp]

Indeed she was, it's a much less known Slayer power

Au contraire, it was a Buffy power.

 

[Priceless]

Au contraire, it was a Buffy power.

I think I may disagree. I posit that it may have been latent in other Slayers, but not in Buffy. In fact it could have been Buffy's greatest Slayer power

 

[thetopher]

Whilst Buffy did force Angel a bite her he still had a choice in the end. And once he did he seemed to have trouble stopping.
So...they both went over the line? So they cancel each other out? Umm, not really.
To me it just illustrates that Angel was right when he chose to leave Sunnydale; when he's around Buffy's priorities get all screwed up.

Luckily Buffy could do that mind-meld slayer-thing with Faith at the hospital and somehow get her strength back.

Trusting the monster not to do any damage when it's not even in their right mind is a dangerous gamble. See S7 Spike with a trigger.

Not the same thing exactly. In S3 Buffy was trusting Angel to an extent; a risk certainly but a calculated risk.
If this had been the case in S7 I wouldn't have minded in the least; Buffy trusting Spike? Sure, he's got a soul now so why not.

But the trigger means that Buffy can't trust Spike since he has no free will. Buffy ends up trusting The First.

 

[RomanticSoul]

It's not really about trusting the monster, when it comes to Angel or Spike, it's always about Buffy and the trust she has in herself. The vampires are always simply a part of Buffy's narrative. Buffy believed she had enough power over Angel, and Spike S7, to be able to control them or force them to control themselves. The bite wasn't about Angel, it's always about Buffy and her decisions regarding him. S7 was about Power and Buffy's belief in Spike is an example of the power she believes she holds over him.

Buffy has no power when she is DRAINED OF BLOOD. Hello. And unless she can go without sleep and never leave the house to keep an eye on Spike 24/7 her power is of no help there either.

Whilst Buffy did force Angel a bite her he still had a choice in the end. And once he did he seemed to have trouble stopping.

No he didn't have a choice. They made it a point to show us that Angel had been hallucinating for a while before Buffy comes and offers herself. He literally used the bit of 'life' he had left to get away from her in the only moment he was lucid. That's when he also said 'no'. Buffy punched her way through Angel and to the demon and my guess is punched Angel right back into his delirium. I doubt he even knew it was Buffy he was feeding on.
 

Not the same thing exactly. In S3 Buffy was trusting Angel to an extent; a risk certainly but a calculated risk.
If this had been the case in S7 I wouldn't have minded in the least; Buffy trusting Spike? Sure, he's got a soul now so why not.

But the trigger means that Buffy can't trust Spike since he has no free will. Buffy ends up trusting The First.

But she is not trusting Angel, she is trusting the demon. She had already punched her way through Angel in order to get the demon to come out.

Yeah but Buffy can't trust the First as that makes no sense whatsoever ( even though you are right that she does). So from a story perspective she is trusting Spike because Spuffy plot.

 

[Carrie Hopewell]

Whilst Buffy did force Angel a bite her he still had a choice in the end. And once he did he seemed to have trouble stopping.

I disagree. Angel didn't make a choice to have his fangs shoved in Buffy's neck. And yes, he bit, but he was sick and weak. He didn't make a choice with all of his faculties and his ability to make decisions intact. It's like blaming an abused, starving child for choosing to eat something the abuser gives them. It's hardly fair to blame Angel. Buffy was the only one capable of choosing. The fact that Angel resisted for that long, until the hungry demon was awakened, is already impressive.

 

[thetopher]

They made it a point to show us that Angel had been hallucinating for a while before Buffy comes and offers herself.

Whilst that is true its also shown that the delirium comes and goes and that it isn't in effect when Buffy comes back to see Angel. He asks about Faith and Buffy tells him she was unsuccessful, they have a conversation.
And getting punched hard in the face doesn't really 'make somebody' go delirious, it snaps them out of it.

I just don't think the 'I had no choice, I didn't know what I was doing' is applicable. On some level Angel made a choice, whether it was to bite Buffy himself or let the demon in him take over. And given that he forced himself to stop- I'm guessing it was a conscious choice on his part.

I'm not exactly judging the guy- since Buffy pushed him to the brink- but yeah, they both did a questionable thing.
 

I disagree. Angel didn't make a choice to have his fangs shoved in Buffy's neck. And yes, he bit, but he was sick and weak.

But that is still a choice, its just made under duress.
It gives context to Angel's decision but doesn't completely absolve him of responsibility. On some level Angel wanted to live and therefore bit Buffy and drained her blood.
He also stopped on his own, which means that he had the conscious ability to decide to stop.
 

But she is not trusting Angel, she is trusting the demon.

But Angel is the one who stops. So therefore Angel is the one who starts. In my view.

 

[Carrie Hopewell]

But that is still a choice, its just made under duress.
It gives context to Angel's decision but doesn't completely absolve him of responsibility. On some level Angel wanted to live and therefore bit Buffy and drained her blood.
He also stopped on his own, which means that he had the conscious ability to decide to stop.

Not a choice. The demon wanting to live isn't a choice Angel makes. Do you choose to breathe because being alive is something you want?

And Angel didn't stop reading. That's not how I read the situation. Angel drained Buffy as much as he needed to. He then stopped drinking the blood as a reflex because he was cured. It's obvious to me that when Angel collapsed on the floor, and looked at Buffy, he was surprised to see her there. He had no idea what he had been doing. Angel had been pretty much out of the picture and only stopped drinking because he was done. Vampires don't have to drain all the blood from a human. They drink until they're full and Angel was full. Thankfully for Buffy, she still had some blood left and could stay alive in her condition due to her slayer healing powers. Angel only shows signs of awareness and the capacity to choose when he looks at Buffy and takes off to the hospital.

 

[Priceless]

Buffy has no power when she is DRAINED OF BLOOD. Hello. And unless she can go without sleep and never leave the house to keep an eye on Spike 24/7 her power is of no help there either.

You are giving the vampires too much power. Buffy controls them both, Angel and Spike, her actions speak to this. She forces Angel to feed, knowing full well he will stop because of the power she has over him. It's the same reasoning she uses when she is faced with a triggered Spike, knowing he will not bite her because of that power. S7 is about Power and she and The First are fighting for the control of Spike's soul,. Spike tastes her and it's her blood that brings him to his senses. I think it's only after this that they realise Spike is being triggered (could be wrong here ?)

 

[RomanticSoul]

Whilst that is true its also shown that the delirium comes and goes and that it isn't in effect when Buffy comes back to see Angel. He asks about Faith and Buffy tells him she was unsuccessful, they have a conversation.
And getting punched hard in the face doesn't really 'make somebody' go delirious, it snaps them out of it.

I just don't think the 'I had no choice, I didn't know what I was doing' is applicable. On some level Angel made a choice, whether it was to bite Buffy himself or let the demon in him take over. And given that he forced himself to stop- I'm guessing it was a conscious choice on his part.

So Angel also willingly chose to become a vampire then? How is this different from when Darla sired him? She drained him to the point of death (here the poison did that) and shoved his face between her breasts (like Buffy shoved it into her neck). And we know from Angel himself that drinking then is not a choice anymore.

But that is still a choice, its just made under duress.

Angel had already made that choice before. When he said NO.

It gives context to Angel's decision but doesn't completely absolve him of responsibility. On some level Angel wanted to live and therefore bit Buffy and drained her blood.
He also stopped on his own, which means that he had the conscious ability to decide to stop.
But Angel is the one who stops. So therefore Angel is the one who starts. In my view.

I'm with @Carrie Hopewell when she says...

It's obvious to me that when Angel collapsed on the floor, and looked at Buffy, he was surprised to see her there. He had no idea what he had been doing.

That's how I've always seen it. When he rolls off of her to the floor and goes out of vamp face then turns and sees Buffy. The way he says 'Buffy?' always sounds to me like...'why are you lying there?' If he knew on some level what he was doing why did he have that reaction?

You are giving the vampires too much power. Buffy controls them both, Angel and Spike, her actions speak to this. She forces Angel to feed, knowing full well he will stop because of the power she has over him. It's the same reasoning she uses when she is faced with a triggered Spike, knowing he will not bite her because of that power. S7 is about Power and she and The First are fighting for the control of Spike's soul,. Spike tastes her and it's her blood that brings him to his senses. I think it's only after this that they realise Spike is being triggered (could be wrong here ?)

What are you even talking about? Some thrall power Buffy suddenly has over vampires? What? Please take the 'vampire whisperer' into a joke conversation because that's where it belongs. Normally I would be all for a joke but I'm trying to have an actual serious convo here.

 

[Priceless]

What are you even talking about? Some thrall power Buffy suddenly has over vampires? What? Please take the 'vampire whisperer' into a joke conversation because that's where it belongs. Normally I would be all for a joke but I'm trying to have an actual serious convo here.

What I am saying (obviously very badly) is that Buffy forced Angel to drink because she knew he would be able to stop. Buffy didn't have a death wish, she didn't want to die, there's no other reason for her to make him drink unless she believed he would stop, so the question is why would he stop and I am saying he stopped because of his feelings for Buffy. (Exactly the same as Spike in S7 Sleeper)

In his state he would have drained anyone else (eg Faith) so why did he stop? Why not keep drinking till he'd drained her? I don't buy that he realised he was cured, when you've just said that you agree he was in some sort of trance state and hadn't even realised what he was doing. You can't have it both ways - he was in a trance state and didn't know what he was doing or he knew exactly what he was doing enough to stop before he drained Buffy.

 

[RomanticSoul]

What I am saying (obviously very badly) is that Buffy forced Angel to drink because she knew he would be able to stop. Buffy didn't have a death wish, she didn't want to die, there's no other reason for her to make him drink unless she believed he would stop, so the question is why would he stop and I am saying he stopped because of his feelings for Buffy. (Exactly the same as Spike in S7 Sleeper)

Buffy can't know that Angel's demon would stop since Angel even said he couldn't be sure about that in his current state. So that's a mute point right there. Buffy is going out on a limb hoping for the best outcome, nothing more. As for stopping I'm going with @Carrie Hopewell and add also that his body was being cleared of the poison and his head became clear again. So he became aware of the fact that he was feeding on someone, just wasn't clear to him who until he rolled off Buffy, turned to look over and saw her there.

And are you seriously saying triggered Spike stopped attacking Buffy because of his feelings for her? Then he is 100% guilty of multiple murder when he didn't refrain from killing people he didn't know or love. But I'm really not interested in a Spike discussion. This is the B/A board and I'm trying to have a convo about the GD biting scene. This should probably be discussed elsewhere.

In his state he would have drained anyone else (eg Faith) so why did he stop? Why not keep drinking till he'd drained her? I don't buy that he realised he was cured, when you've just said that you agree he was in some sort of trance state and hadn't even realised what he was doing. You can't have it both ways - he was in a trance state and didn't know what he was doing or he knew exactly what he was doing enough to stop before he drained Buffy.

He stopped because as I said above, his body was being cleared of the poison by Buffy's blood so his head also cleared because the effects of the poison would go away. LOGICAL conclusion. I don't see how that invalidates anything I've said.

 

[thetopher]

Not a choice. The demon wanting to live isn't a choice Angel makes. Do you choose to breathe because being alive is something you want?

And Angel didn't stop reading. That's not how I read the situation. Angel drained Buffy as much as he needed to. He then stopped drinking the blood as a reflex because he was cured. It's obvious to me that when Angel collapsed on the floor, and looked at Buffy, he was surprised to see her there. He had no idea what he had been doing. Angel had been pretty much out of the picture and only stopped drinking because he was done. Vampires don't have to drain all the blood from a human.

But you can't have it both ways. Demons kill; they feed until their target dies. Always. There is no reason why Angelus would NOT kill Buffy in this situation.
So Angel must've been the one to stop. Consciously, because it was either Angel or Angelus, and the demon never would've until it was too late.

This whole 'he was now full and didn't want anymore and stopped automatically' thing is just- if you'll excuse the term- a bit fanon-y. There is no evidence to support it because vampires in their right mind always kill their victims- (unless they've been paid no to I suppose).

So Angel also willingly chose to become a vampire then? How is this different from when Darla sired him?

Liam was drunk, horny and ignorant of what was actually happening to him,so I'll give him a pass. But on some level he made a choice not to die and so he fed. No demon inside him either, which means its more likely that Angel made the choice in GD- since there's a precedent.

Angel says 'you try to fight but you can't'- he remembers being turned I guess. Even back when he was just a human he chose some sort of life over death. Which is a natural response.

Angel had already made that choice before. When he said NO.

And then the situation changed and Angel changed his mind- on some level. Buffy did not force Angel to bite her, she did not make him clamp his jaw down on her neck.

Look, this is all mostly Buffy's fault; I get that. She pushed him to the brink and Angel snapped. And then he snapped back and felt really guilty about it. I don't blame him exactly because Buffy put him in that situation and gave him very little choice. But he still chose because he then chose to stop.
It's why in the aftermath he feels so guilty and the Scoobies are a bit pissed. It's still like, 95% Buffy's fault.

 

[Carrie Hopewell]

But you can't have it both ways. Demons kill; they feed until their target dies. Always. There is no reason why Angelus would NOT kill Buffy in this situation.
So Angel must've been the one to stop. Consciously, because it was either Angel or Angelus, and the demon never would've until it was too late.

This whole 'he was now full and didn't want anymore and stopped automatically' thing is just- if you'll excuse the term- a bit fanon-y. There is no evidence to support it because vampires in their right mind always kill their victims- (unless they've been paid no to I suppose).

Vampires kill demons because they drain them of their blood. They drink and stop when they want to. Perhaps some make sure to hear the heart stop beating, others stop when the heart is barely beating anymore. They leave the victims for dead and they usually die with little to no blood, but they stop drinking whenever they want to - which is usually when the victim is dead or dying. For example, The Master stopped drinking Buffy because he had other things to do. She died of drowning and would have eventually died of blood loss. Angelus stopped drinking a human in Passion outside of The Bronze in order to follow Buffy. I assume she died from blood loss, but maybe she didn't. Angelus didn't drink deeply enough.

So yes, I believe that Angel drank until he was cured and himself again. When his head cleared, he stopped drinking because he was confused about what was going on and, like @RomanticSoul said, Angel tasted the blood on his mouth and stopped.
I don't know why you mentioned Angelus. Angel was the one drinking the blood, Angel still had a soul. The demon within him is the vampire and vampire doesn't equal Angelus. Angel is the demon with a soul, Angelus the demon without a soul. Angel's demon is not Angelus. Angel started drinking the blood because he was weak and acting on instinct. Buffy brought forth is demon - which is still Angel, he doesn't become Angelus everytime he has his vamp face on - and the demon feels the urge to drink blood more deeply and more powerfully than normal Angel - which is why vampires "vamp face" when they want to feed, besides the fangs. So Angel drank the blood and Angel stopped drinking. However, he didn't consciously choose to start or stop drinking- It was more reflexive on his part.

 

[RomanticSoul]

Liam was drunk, horny and ignorant of what was actually happening to him,so I'll give him a pass. But on some level he made a choice not to die and so he fed. No demon inside him either, which means its more likely that Angel made the choice in GD- since there's a precedent.

You should actually blame Liam more than Angel. Liam was only drunk, he still saw Darla as Darla. That's one of the reasons he followed her into the alley. We had previously seen Angel confuse Willow and OZ for Buffy. And lets not forget that Liam getting drunk was a choice, Angel getting poisoned was not.

Angel says 'you try to fight but you can't'- he remembers being turned I guess. Even back when he was just a human he chose some sort of life over death. Which is a natural response.

Because you can't fight swallowing. IT'S A REFLEX. If someone drains you of fluids, then presses your head against their chest with vampire strength so they can fill your mouth up with fluids. You can't fight them because you are dying and weak and thirsty. So with no chance to get your head/mouth away and the thirst you are going to be swallowing that blood down one way or the other. There is no choice there really. And lets face it, most people would chose life anyway.

And then the situation changed and Angel changed his mind- on some level. Buffy did not force Angel to bite her, she did not make him clamp his jaw down on her neck.

He didn't change his mind. Buffy chose to ignore his wishes and punch the part of Angel that was fighting to stay clear headed (and resist) right back into delirium while knowing that violence would bring out the demon.

But he still chose because he then chose to stop.

Slayer blood was the antidote for the poison. Once Buffy's blood gets into him the effects of the poison are being cured. That's the whole point. Angel realizes he is feeding on someone and stops when his head becomes clearer due to the fact that he is being cured.

It's why in the aftermath he feels so guilty and the Scoobies are a bit pissed. It's still like, 95% Buffy's fault.

Angel was going to feel majorly guilty even if he had been 100% innocent (which I believe he was) because Buffy was hurt because of him AGAIN. Hello, Angel is all about the guilt even for things he shouldn't feel guilty about.

Priceless: You are right, I shouldn't be in this forum and I apologise.

I didn't say that. I said Spike shouldn't be discussed here since this isn't the place for it.

 

[YummySushiPJs]

I know that I'm in the minority here, probably the vast minority, but I never saw anything even vaguely sexual about that particular scene, even though I seem to recall that that's the way that Sarah said she played it. When the camera zoomed in for a closeup of her face, all that I saw was a terrified girl

Yep. You're not the only one. Although, when I watched it for the first time I did notice that they had filmed it like a sex scene and I presumed that was probably the intended metaphor, but I didn't feel it. At all.

 

[thetopher]

So yes, I believe that Angel drank until he was cured and himself again. When his head cleared, he stopped drinking because he was confused about what was going on and, like @RomanticSoul said, Angel tasted the blood on his mouth and stopped.

I don't know why you mentioned Angelus. Angel was the one drinking the blood, Angel still had a soul. The demon within him is the vampire and vampire doesn't equal Angelus. Angel is the demon with a soul, Angelus the demon without a soul.

As I see it Angelus is the demon. Liam is the man before and Angel is the resultant combination- demon with the soul of a man.
So if Angel was not conscious then it must've been the demon- the thirst- that caused his to bite Buffy .

...

However, having re-watched the scene Angel does seem to lack awareness of his surroundings in the aftermath; like coming around after a severe trauma.

Obviously his delirious state was so great that he bears no responsibility for acting the way he did. Due to Buffy's actions the consent is so murky, the line between demon and man is at its thinnest, I think the whole culpability thing is a wash.

You should actually blame Liam more than Angel.

But in my view Liam is Angel, with a demon inside.
And no, I don't blame Liam; how can I when he wasn't given an informed choice. Darla didn't say 'I'm-a gonna make you a vampire!' she said 'I'm going to show you my world.'
Perhaps poor dopey, horny Liam thought she would bundle him into her carriage and take him to a masked ball- I dunno. But 'show me you're world' in no way indicates 'I'm going to kill you and then bring you back just like me.'

Because you can't fight swallowing. IT'S A REFLEX.

Breathing is a reflex. Drinking is not. Feeding off of something is a conscious choice if you're hungry or thirsty enough.

However, see above, after re-watching the scene I concede that Angel's instincts- because of the poison- were not a conscious decision. No choice.

 

[BuffyBot22]

Guess maybe S7 Buffy isn't as OOC as I thought then. Trusting the monster not to do any damage when it's not even in their right mind is a dangerous gamble. See S7 Spike with a trigger.

s7 bored the ever loving hell out of me, so I'm a bit foggy on the Spike/trigger stuff. IIRC, Buffy was trying to give him the benefit of the doubt since he had a soul, and the trigger was more of an affliction than due to him being evil. Not saying he shouldn't have been chained up, but clearly no one was thinking straight in s7.

Buffy wasn't trusting the monster in Angel not to kill her, she was trusting the man. Sure, she brought the demon out in him to bite her, but she was trusting that the man in him would know when to stop. It was an incredible risk to take. Even a stupid one. But, most people who have any sort of a heart/conscious would do just about anything to help someone they love, even if it is irrational or possibly fatal. In that moment, Buffy was not thinking about consequences, she was thinking about saving someone she loves and who has helped save her as well. And in that moment, she had to gamble on hoping the man in Angel would be stronger than the demon in Angel.