The maddest you've ever been at Joss Whedon

[Flannen]

Yeah, I don't think Joss will end up as a balding sad man. He didn't become a geek icon over night. He was a TV and movie writer for about 10 years before Buffy. He's built his career over 25 years to where it is now. So he's not one hit wonder materiel. He is a great writer and director, but he's not genius all the time. And I say this as someone who probably could join the cult of Joss. His conception, in my opinion, is out matched by just about anyone, since the messages he puts in his work only become more relevant to be as I grow up. His execution does not always match up however, and then you get things like the AR. Although, who was actually to blame for that?

But where is his career now? The fact is, he is only a geek icon. Which is why I think he's so overrated. If he was the genius that he's claimed to be surely he'd be known by people who aren't Buffy/AtS/Firefly fans. He isn't well known for his 25 year career. In fact the only friend of mine who did know who he was said 'isn't he the guy that has had every one of his shows fail?' So, I'm not sure Sco's future description is completely unlikely.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

Only starting?

I did think that he had could really flesh out characters and write them; I thought that was his thing. I am starting to now think he is less involved in that as once was led to believe.

 

[Kean]

By the way, could you mention which women get punished for having sex? I can only recall Buffy herself, with the Angelus arc and the attempted rape.

Cordy is twice impregnated with evil demon spawn in Angel.

Tara is killed after reconciling with Willow. And then he employs the old fridging trope to drive Willow around the bend.

Dawn sleeps with someone other than her boyfriend and is turned into a Giant, among other things.

And of course Buffy (apart from Riley (and possibly Satsu) she (and quite often her partner) is punished for each sexual relationship she is involved in with her and Angel's reunion is S8 being the latest).

 

[Icarium]

I did think that he had could really flesh out characters and write them; I thought that was his thing. I am starting to now think he is less involved in that as once was led to believe.

He can write compelling characters, I will give him that. Even grumpy bastards like me have a soft spot for at least a few of his characters. I think his problem is he can't resist the temptation to ruin those characters for the sake of his current "cool" idea and he rarely bothers to really deal with the repercussions of that. Like "wouldn't it be cool if Xander summoned Sweet?" or "wouldn't it be cool if Willow tried to destroy the world?" or "wouldn't it be really cool if Buffy misses her rapist?".

 

[The Unspoken]

Cordy is twice impregnated with evil demon spawn in Angel.

True that. The second time she was possessed though, so I'm not sure if we can count that one. Of course, Charisma got punished for getting pregnant.

Tara is killed after reconciling with Willow. And then he employs the old fridging trope to drive Willow around the bend.

But the killing by a stray bullet was not related to having sex, no? One could say Wesley was also punished after reconciling with Fred. I think this falls into the 'Joss brings happy couples together at the last minute only to destroy them' trope. Which probably isn't any less worse, mind you.

Dawn sleeps with someone other than her boyfriend and is turned into a Giant, among other things.

And of course Buffy (apart from Riley (and possibly Satsu) she (and quite often her partner) is punished for each sexual relationship she is involved in with her and Angel's reunion is S8 being the latest).

Agreed on all counts.

 

[Kean]

But the killing by a stray bullet was not related to having sex, no? One could say Wesley was also punished after reconciling with Fred. I think this falls into the 'Joss brings happy couples together at the last minute only to destroy them' trope. Which probably isn't any less worse, mind you.

Hmm. Tara may be a stretch here but even then he uses her death as means of triggering Willow's descent into evil. That's as equally appalling for me.

 

[Amyrat151]

But where is his career now? The fact is, he is only a geek icon. Which is why I think he's so overrated. If he was the genius that he's claimed to be surely he'd be known by people who aren't Buffy/AtS/Firefly fans. He isn't well known for his 25 year career. In fact the only friend of mine who did know who he was said 'isn't he the guy that has had every one of his shows fail?' So, I'm not sure Sco's future description is completely unlikely.

My point about his career being 25 years longs is that he's been a writer for a long time, he had a life before Buffy, and even if he never creates anything as successful as Buffy, he will still have a career. He might be lower on the radar, but he'll still work.
As for not being recognized by non-geeks, last time I checked Star Trek wasn't given high accolades for years after it's creation besides people who were nerds. I know it's hard to image now after the last movie which was blinged up and dumbed down. Yes, there are geeky things with mass appeal, Harry Potter, Star Wars, Pirates of the Caribbean, but being a master of a niche doesn't make you any less of a master. Mass appeal is not the only element the quality of work should be based on.

And if you're not a fan of Joss at all, why are you here?

 

[Kean]

Amyrat151 agrees: And it was a stray bullet that killed Tara, it had to do with Warren being an evil little man. It wasn't about sex being evil.

Yeah. I addressed that here.

Hmm. Tara may be a stretch here but even then he uses her death as means of triggering Willow's descent into evil. That's as equally appalling for me.

I don't think Dawn was punished for having sex, she was punished for cheating.

Maybe, but my reading of the text shows me that she was punished for being sexual. I find that both disturbing and offensive. Especially for a tale that focus' on female empowerment.

 

[VisionGirl]

For me, I'd say it was when Angel ended and there was no goodbye from Buffy. Not an appearance, not a send off, nothing. This has been debated here many times and lots will disagree with me but I feel like there could have at least been a little more referencing or something. The closest they came to acknowledging B was mentioning she was somewhere in Rome...I know there were many factors involved but it was sad because it was the end of Buffyverse on tv and there was no farewell from the Slayer.

But that wasn't entirely his fault, it seemed that SMG couldn't find time in her schedule to make an appearance. And yes, I think she should have.

So, I am fine with Joss. He is, so far, not on my hit list at all.

Yes, not a lot bugs me, but the following does:

*I have HUGE problems with how he punishes people for having sex. Which, except for the case of Angel, has always been the women of the show.

*The slaughtering of Cordelia's character in S4. Both the character and the actor who played her deserved much much more. And while You're Welcome helps. It in now way makes up for how he ripped Cordy apart.

* Angel S8. What he did to Cordy was child's play compared to this.

Cordy's character/Charisma's treatment is the #1 issue for me. I freaking loved her on ATS. And I don't blame Angel in s8 entirely on Joss- Scott Allie had no clue about the intricasies of Angel's character. Although Joss did allow it to happen.

The only other thing that bothers me is something I read in an article: Joss' treatment of older/mature women. They typically wind up dead. And "maturity" relates to sexuality as well as childbearing & motherhood.

And if you're not a fan of Joss at all, why are you here?

I often wonder this too. Sometimes it seems that some people here hate a lot of what's in his shows & him as well, and I wonder what they're doing on a Buffy fan forum. I do think he's incredibly creative, and creates/writes characters well, and writes dialogue well. I think he's also good at surrounding himself with really talented people. I don't think the accolades should go all to him of course.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

And if you're not a fan of Joss at all, why are you here?

I cannot speak for Flannel, but this is a Buffy fan board, not a Joss Whedon. I like(d) Buffy much more than ever I liked Joss. Buffy is so much more than just Joss. There were numerous talented writers and directors (not to mention actors) involved.

 

[Flannen]

And if you're not a fan of Joss at all, why are you here?

Because I can still appreciate the TV show he made/makes? You don't have to like a writer to appreciate the story they have to tell. Granted, I take more and more issue with his story the older I get but that doesn't mean I don't have a place on this board because I'm not a fan of him.

I embrace the fact I no longer accept everything that happened in Buffy/Angel like I used to. It helps me to see my values/principles/ideas have develop as I've matured.

 

[Icarium]

Yes, there are geeky things with mass appeal, Harry Potter, Star Wars, Pirates of the Caribbean, but being a master of a niche doesn't make you any less of a master.

What niche is he a master of, sinking 'ships? 😀 "Charmed" lasted for eight seasons, is Brad Kern a master of a niche too? I am a big science fiction and fantasy geek and wouldn't really put Joss among the masters of the genre. The worldbuilding in his shows is downright appalling, so whenever the veneer of humour is missing, my suspension of disbelief is shattered to million pieces. He used to be great at emotionally manipulating the viewers but once he became obsessed with "Superpowered murderers are so much cooler than puny normal humans" pretty much all of that was lost. How am I supposed to take the drama seriously when he has characters who belong to a sitcom and whose crimes are ignored on the basis of them being comic relief like Anya, Andrew and Harmony? If Joss wants me to take him seriously he needs to be consistent - as he apparently used to be before his ego became way too big or whatever happened that caused the lacklustre final seasons of BtVS. Not pandering to fans of the most popular characters and ships would help too. It's rather hard to accept his "I give people what they need, not what they want" adage when the pandering is often so blatant.

I often wonder this too. Sometimes it seems that some people here hate a lot of what's in his shows & him as well, and I wonder what they're doing on a Buffy fan forum.

Because it's not a forum that's about praising Joss only. Plus, there aren't exactly many forums dedicated on bashing him. Even TwoP doesn't really qualify. 🙂

 

[Misty]

I actually don't Joss to begin with, but destroying Cordelia in season 4 was horrible and so was killing her off at the end of You're Welcome made me angry 🙁.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

The worldbuilding in his shows is downright appalling

Why do you think that is? I used to think that since it was a midseason show they had not the time to work everything out, like the massive change in vampires from one season to the next. Then I thought it was just because the show was evolving. But I think it's simply because he doesnt care about detail. Easier to make the world whatever you want it to be if there are no ground rules in place. Thats why the comics fail, because the lack of worldbuilding worked in TV; yes, it sometimes felt hollow and empty, but at the same time it did bring total focus to the characters. The comics are the opposite.

 

[Icarium]

Why do you think that is? I used to think that since it was a midseason show they had not the time to work everything out, like the massive change in vampires from one season to the next. Then I thought it was just because the show was evolving. But I think it's simply because he doesnt care about detail.

I think you nailed it. I can't vouch for the truth of this but I have seen it mentioned on forums that ME apparently chose not to have a show bible which is the way most other shows deal with continuity because they felt this would have restrained their creativity. Yes, it's convenient to be able to introduce new plot elements without caring much if they contradict previous ones but it can also really piss the more critical and pedantic viewers. As long as the show was great this wasn't much of a problem - I doubt that many viewers were up in arms, sending angry letters to ask how come The Council is only mentioned after S2 and why Giles doesn't simply call them for information rather than use teenagers for the research. But the longer the shows continued, the more the contradictions mounted, especially in regards to the magic system and the way things worked on AtS as opposed to BtVS. Eventually it got so bad that Joss basically admitted that he couldn't find a way for Buffy to win that made sense (even after providing her with two dei ex machina!), so he arbitrarily made the Turok-Hans ridiculously weak in Chosen but that somehow didn't matter according to him because he wanted to achieve the "emotional truth". Whatever, Joss. And in the comics, things got even worse with the whole "people love vampires because Harmony has a reality show" nonsense or the sentient universe.

 

[Kean]

And in the comics, things got even worse with the whole "people love vampires because Harmony has a reality show" nonsense or the sentient universe.

Yes, because Heidi Montag is now the Queen of the World after her reality ventures with the Hills. 🙄

Has any reality star ever created that kind of universal reaction? I can't think of one.

 

[prophecygrrl]

And of course Buffy (apart from Riley (and possibly Satsu) she (and quite often her partner) is punished for each sexual relationship she is involved in with her and Angel's reunion is S8 being the latest).

THIS! My heart breaks for Buffy, especially in Season 8.

Also, I am pretty sure Joss does not understand the meaning of 'consent'. Dubious, mystically-influenced "consent" doesn't cut it.

 

[brinkster130]

There have been numerous things that I've been disappointed with but the only two that made me really mad were the Cordy/Connor story line and the Angel/Twilight S8 story line.

Some things that annoyed me were: getting rid of Lilah and replacing her with Eve 🙂rolleyes🙂 and pretty much ignoring the scoobies in S7.

 

[Goby]

But where is his career now? The fact is, he is only a geek icon. Which is why I think he's so overrated. If he was the genius that he's claimed to be surely he'd be known by people who aren't Buffy/AtS/Firefly fans. He isn't well known for his 25 year career. In fact the only friend of mine who did know who he was said 'isn't he the guy that has had every one of his shows fail?' So, I'm not sure Sco's future description is completely unlikely.

I soooooooooooooooooo disagree.

I HATE popular music. Let me repeat... I HATE IT!!!!

To me, my musical heroes, like Lagwagon, Propagandhi, Strung Out, Elliott Smith, Dover, etc. are a million times better than Lady Gaga and Taylor Swift. To me they are heroes and a success even if few people have heard of them. I could care less about record sales, and so do they.

Only a geek icon? Overrated? Next time a show you write and produce is named by TV Guide and Time as the 41st greatest TV show (TV Guide) and a top 100 show of all time (Time Magazine) and one of your episodes (The Body) is called one of the greatest episodes of TV EVER you can start talking. 😉

Joss has made TV history. He didn't fail. He had four TV shows on network television. He made a big studio movie. The guy is a success.

😡

 

[Skanky Vamp]

He didn't fail. He had four TV shows on network television. He made a big studio movie. The guy is a success.

I think it depends on how you would phrase success. Would you consider someone like Chris Carter; who had three TV shows on network television as well as big studio movies, equal, more or less successful than Whedon? Or someone like J. Michael Straczynski that had numerous TV series and movies? David Milch? Aaron Sorkin? Steven Bochco? I would rate all of them above Whedon. Sure, Whedon is a success but he is not the genius and master storyteller that people make him out to be. A 'newbie' on the list that has just came out in the last decade would be Shawn Ryan (you might remember from a few select Angel episodes), and again, I might be biased, but would rank him above Whedon as well (as far as television success)