The original scene from Empty Places

[Icarium]

You seem to be digging yourself into a hole where you cant agree with anyone.

Giles...you think it was a bad plan because it was rushed? Um, i think its a bad plan because he went against the 3 worst vampires in history with a baseball bat...he could take a year to establish this mastermind of a plan for all i care.

I never said Giles's plan was bad only because it was rushed, but if he could take his time and think things through he most likely would have realised the plan was suicidal...just like Buffy at the point in Season 7 that we are discussing. At least in my opinion. And at least Giles didn't try to order others to go along with his suicide attempt.

They won the final battle SOLELY because of what happened to Spike and his sacrifice.

That's all very nice but sadly quite irrelevant as the Buffy from Empty Places (and earlier in season 7 where she defends Spike as if he is the only thing that matters in the world) had no way of knowing things would go that way, don't you think?

Maybe you just have a problem with Buffy being in charge?

You'd think I would have realized this about 140 episodes earlier if this was the problem and not Buffy behaving like a fool (IMO, of course).

Well we both know that thats not an issue in the final fight.

There wouldn't have been a final fight if Spike had killed everyone in their beds months (weeks?) ago.

 

[Silum]

Its not a giant leap of faith to imagine Spike being pivotal in the final battle. Im just glad for all those make believe people in the Buffy world that Buffy isn't as short sighted as you.

 

[Icarium]

Well, if we forget the small detail that Angel was more than willing to do the same thing as Spike.
And how exactly is Spike going from somewhat useful fighter to the one who killed thousands of thousands of ubervamps, I will never know. You are saying that Buffy could have come up with any plan she wanted and things woudl have been fine...which is true since it's Buffy's show and a happy end was in order. I'd rather have my suspension of disbelief not ripped apart, though. to each his own.

 

[Silum]

Well, if we forget the small detail that Angel was more than willing to do the same thing as Spike.

AHHHHHHHH!!!!! Ive got it! Ok, cheers, i can finally leave this thread satisfied.

 

[Icarium]

Er, I am not saying that Angel using the amulet would have been any less of a ridiculous Deus ex machina than Spike using it, I am just saying Spike was not the irreplacable champion of good the season tried so hard to portray him as.

 

[Enuf3]

But Spike kinda was a champion... I mean.. Not necessarily of the good guy sense... But in many ways.. was a champion.

 

[SpuffyFan4Life]

I actually like the one in the show better. I think maybe Giles still should have addressed Jenny, but this is just way more harsh than what's in the show. Maybe in the show they jump the the conclusion but I'd rather their thoughts be unsaid that a total slap in the face.

 

[clemsgirlfriend]

There wouldn't have been a final fight if Spike had killed everyone in their beds months (weeks?) ago.

There is no reason to keep repeating this statement in so many of the posts. It was established onscreen that once they became aware of the trigger, Spike was keeping himself locked up in the chains whenever Buffy was not around (since she could stake him or subdue him physically), so killing everyone in their beds was *not* a risk of keeping him around. But not having a strong ally on their side was indeed a risk of not keeping him around, and without knowing what would happen in the final battle, it is completely logical to want to keep an ally around who is also a strong fighter.

It doesn't make sense to call him an arch-nemesis either (we are talking about season 7 here. Even as far back as season 2 when he was evil, Buffy and Spike worked together to defeat Angelus, albeit somewhat reluctantly. And in season 4 when he has the chip he does go around fighting demons for fun, though he is still evil. But the most relevant point here is that by season 5, even without a soul, he is fighting on Buffy's side out of love for her. He lets Glory torture him rather than divulging Dawn's identity to get away from her quickly, even though there was no way that he could think Buffy would find out about that. He is already acting out of love for her, and not to impress her. When Buffy dies, he keeps protecting her friends and sister, again, not to impress her, but because of his love for her. Throughout season 6 and 7 he fights with her as an ally. To call him her arch-nemesis and the end of season 7 is choosing to ignore all that has been shown on-screen in late season 5 and all of seasons 6 and 7. He was her ally.

 

[Kana]

I certainly don't blame soulled Spike for his trigger related actions. I can understand the problem with Buffy not really pushing harder to deactivate the trigger. Spike is a powerful vampire whether he has good intentions or not and was a danger with the trigger. If Spike was chained up then he's not going to be fighting and if he isn't and Buffy is busy fighting him and trying to lead and trying not to killed herself then it could lead to Spike being just as much of a liability as an asset, especially if Buffy has to kill him anyway.

I don't think we can judge one way or the other how the fight was going to turn out based upon what we actually see. I do not agree with what Giles and Wood did, however I do see how Giles' concerns were legitimate. I'm not saying kill Spike but for crying out loud they should have tried harder with deactivating the trigger. Closing your eyes and hoping it's all going to turn out alright was not really strategy to which I'd adhere. Buffy was clearly against having Spike attacked by Wood but causally this is what deactivated the trigger. So we can't say that Buffy did the right thig by trusting that everything was going to turn out alright because it was luck or more specifically a turn of events she didn't plan that led to his deactivation.

I may have said this before but I really felt for Buffy especially in that scene with Faith and Buffy outside. Faith shows that she didn't necessarily want leadership was happy to be one of the soilders and out of everyone, one who goes to see Buffy
is her former rival. Buffy also shows herself to be thinking of the mission. She could have been hateful and petty with Faith but she empowers her. Leadership isn't about ego, for either one of them, it's really about the mission.

A lot of people seem to either think 'Buffy's the man' or she's a frightfully crap leader. I happen to be one of the people who thinks she is totally the man, a short, blonde, pretty man. I just think she was caught in between virtually irreconcilable forces. A lot of people talk about being a general and looking at the big picture and the inevitability of death as far as war is concerned, however these are things and Buffy struggled with. I saw an interesting essay on the Buffster and it talked about how the reason she got as far as she did is because of her emotional connections and her feelings for her friends. We see this most notably contrasted with Wesley's Utilitarian principles. She'd rather risk Sunnydale and save Willow and she was willing to risk herself for Angel while the ascension is at hand. This whole 'General' attitude thing is actually relatively new. Even in Season 6 she could hardly accept the idea of one death verses many. As result she actually distanced herself from her friends and those around her and lest we forget that this is very thing that made Buffy a good slayer in the first place. She literally wouldn't be alive if were not for them. I don't blame her though however and I think she did remarkably well considering.

Erm rather random post.

ALSO: I don't think Faith did that bad considering either and I don't think she was really given a chance. I love Giles, I honestly think he's the cat's pyjamas but he needed to decide whether he wanted Buffy to lead or not.

Anyway just adding to the randomness.

 

[Blair Waldorf-Bass]

There are some things about this one that are much better, and some things that aren't so great. Willow is nicer in this scene, for one. But I'm sure that if this had aired instead of the original, a lot more people would've been even more angry at the time.

 

[fly on the wall]

He starts because Buffy calls him on what he tried to do with Spike and what he did to Ben.
Spike, at the time, was a Vampire that at anytime could have been called upon by the First to kill everyone in the house.
Buffy was totally blinkered by her affection for Spike. I actually agree with what Giles tried to do, just not his method.

I agree with this. And I agree with him killing Ben.
But I still feel that the Jenny comment would have been beyond harsh. Because when she didn't kill Angelus, it wasn't her acting rashly, alone, or making an error in judgment. She KNEW she had to kill him, but she couldn't. She wasn't ready. I don't feel that's on the same level at all as what happened in Dirty Girls.
I think, throughout the whole series, you'll find that Buffy reaches out for help FAR more than she acts alone. And honestly, I don't blame her for wanting to act alone sometimes. Being a Slayer is HER duty and she doesn't want to put her friends at risk.

 

[white avenger]

I may have said this before but I really felt for Buffy especially in that scene with Faith and Buffy outside. Faith shows that she didn't necessarily want leadership was happy to be one of the soilders and out of everyone, one who goes to see Buffy
is her former rival. Buffy also shows herself to be thinking of the mission. She could have been hateful and petty with Faith but she empowers her. Leadership isn't about ego, for either one of them, it's really about the mission.


I love Giles, I honestly think he's the cat's pyjamas but he needed to decide whether he wanted Buffy to lead or not.

Actually, I've always thought that this was just Faith blundering in without really realizing that what she said was going to escalate into what eventually happened. She had objections and legitimate concerns, but questioning Buffy at that moment, and in front of the troops, was a mistake, and I believe she realized it almost as soon as she did it. Once the whole mess was over, though, I think that it says a lot for her character that she was the only one to follow Buffy outside and try to explain her actions.

One of the very few things that I agree with Robin Wood about is that Faith cares a lot more about Buffy than she is willing to admit, probably, almost certainly, in fact, NOT the kind of caring that the Fuffy contingent hopes for, but Faith has always cared deeply for Buffy. I've always hoped that the two women could eventually become good friends, but fate just continues to build up more walls of distrust than Faith can ever taer down.

One of my Buffy/Faith fantasies is that they would somehow be put in a situation where they were forced to each depend on the other to get through, and that that dependency might finally lead to a lasting trust and friendship.

And as for Giles, I really do think that he needs to accept the fact that "his little girl" is all grown up now, and perfectly capable of making her own decisions.

 

[Edmund Blackadder]

Actually, I've always thought that this was just Faith blundering in without really realizing that what she said was going to escalate into what eventually happened. She had objections and legitimate concerns, but questioning Buffy at that moment, and in front of the troops, was a mistake, and I believe she realized it almost as soon as she did it. Once the whole mess was over, though, I think that it says a lot for her character that she was the only one to follow Buffy outside and try to explain her actions.

One of the very few things that I agree with Robin Wood about is that Faith cares a lot more about Buffy than she is willing to admit, probably, almost certainly, in fact, NOT the kind of caring that the Fuffy contingent hopes for, but Faith has always cared deeply for Buffy. I've always hoped that the two women could eventually become good friends, but fate just continues to build up more walls of distrust than Faith can ever taer down.

One of my Buffy/Faith fantasies is that they would somehow be put in a situation where they were forced to each depend on the other to get through, and that that dependency might finally lead to a lasting trust and friendship.

And as for Giles, I really do think that he needs to accept the fact that "his little girl" is all grown up now, and perfectly capable of making her own decisions.

I find the Buffy/Faith relationship more sibling-like.

They are connected by something that neither of them wanted but both eventually accept.

Buffy is the level headed big sister, Faith is the 'I don't want to be my sister' lil sister that would, in fairness, secretly envy everything she has.

You don't have to like your siblings, but I will always argue that the Slayer-bond means they do unconditionally love each other.

I use the dream at the end of season 3 as my proof.

 

[Silum]

And as for Giles, I really do think that he needs to accept the fact that "his little girl" is all grown up now, and perfectly capable of making her own decisions.

This is why I lost a lot of respect for Giles in the closing episodes (ok, maybe whole final season).

He endlessly goes on and on in S6 about how hes not needed and that she can make her own decisions etc. Even in S4 he began to feel this, to the point where the S5 premiere he was ready to leave.

Then we get the whole, "what your going through now means you need your watcher now more than ever" in S7? Umm, no, everyone else needs a watcher, Buffys a leader by S7.

He was taking an executive decision to kill the most powerful fighter they had...had they been successful...I can only imagine the repercussions to the groups dynamic. It would have been devastating. Buffy for one wouldn't cope, that I know. Giles was extremely irresponsible there.

And then he has the nerve to bring this up in empty spaces, Buffys feeling of mistrust.... I mean holy crap batman, after what you did just be happy your human ass is still around.

 

[Edmund Blackadder]

He was taking an executive decision to kill the most powerful fighter they had...had they been successful...I can only imagine the repercussions to the groups dynamic. It would have been devastating. Buffy for one wouldn't cope, that I know. Giles was extremely irresponsible there.

I'll be honest, I didn't understand the about-turn they made with the Giles character in season 7 as it is completely contradictory to the rest of the show (unless they DO make him Twilight then it makes SOME sense, or at least can be backward fanwanked as him setting up this state).

I do, however, think that killing Spike wasn't a bad idea.

Buffy had her reasons for wanting to keep him alive, but to be fair she never really made it clear and as I said before, she didn't have the ability to kill Angelus and look what happened there.

I think Giles was wrong in method, but I won't argue with reasoning.

 

[Silum]

I do, however, think that killing Spike wasn't a bad idea.

Buffy had her reasons for wanting to keep him alive, but to be fair she never really made it clear and as I said before, she didn't have the ability to kill Angelus and look what happened there.

I think Giles was wrong in method, but I won't argue with reasoning.

I would agree with you if they had explored further options regarding deactivating the trigger. They had already figured out the trigger song and like most things in the Buffyverse, problems often require loads of 'research' to get to the bottom of. Maybe they did and it was all off screen, but as a viewer I dont accept that if they want to take Giles and make him do something so serious.

Giles on the other hand (and this may be me losing respect for him) seemed to have a chip on his shoulder regarding Spike. All it needed was a nudge from Wood who had its own selfish reasons and it was put into place.

It not only wasn't his decision to be made but imo the wrong decision. If we look at the strengths of the team, we have:
-Buffy
-A vampire
-Potentials (useful as human shields)
-A limp Witch
-Human power (Giles, Xander)

I pretty much put those in order (Willow of course is the wild card). Neglecting Buffys obvious love for Spike (take that bangel 😛), she had to know that he was extremely important to the success of defeating the biggest enemy they had ever faced.

Giles reasoning wasn't so much wrong as it was shortsighted.

 

[Enuf3]

When it comes to Giles and season seven.. I saw it as they were all nervous and uneasy and yeah... Naturally Giles is gonna start to question Buffy's decisions. The First was a villain like no other. It -is- unbeatable. It can me maimed and such, but cannot die.

Buffy had a lot on her shoulders and I think Giles was just afraid she was starting to crack. They were all a little nutso in season seven.

 

[white avenger]

I think that what we've been seeing, almost from the beginning of Season 1, is a gradual shift back from the rather geeky book worm/stick in the mud/librarian named Giles,who first gleefully slapped the "Vampyer" tome onto the counter in front of Buffy, to the rather cold hearted character who, in a conversation with Angel in Season 5, informed him that, as long as Angel and his friends were associated with Evil, Inc, there would be no assistance given, even if an innocent woman had her soul devoured by the spirit of an Old One. (How's that for a run on sentence?)

In other words, Giles has been reverting back to Ripper more and more as the seasons progress, and Ripper isn't necessarily a very nice person. It's most obvious when you look at "Lies My Parents Told Me" directly after "Welcome To The Hellmouth." Giles accepted the fact that Buffy was meant to be a leader as well as a fighter. He encouraged it, and trained her for it. Ripper, from what little we actually learned about him, always impressed me as the type of person who would always give the orders and very seldom defer to anyone else's judgment, and that's what, i believe, we're seeing in Season 7. If that progression continues on into Season 8 and beyond, he may very well wind up being the Big Bad at some point.

 

[Enuf3]

he may very well wind up being the Big Bad at some point.

I don't ever see him getting that bad.

 

[Vampmogs2]

Giles on the other hand (and this may be me losing respect for him) seemed to have a chip on his shoulder regarding Spike. All it needed was a nudge from Wood who had its own selfish reasons and it was put into place.

I gotta say I disagree with that 🙂

Whilst Giles may have not liked Spike it wasn't the reason he decided to do what he did. Giles has never liked Spike and has had many opportunities to do something about it if he really wanted to. In 'Intervention' Buffy hoped Xander and Giles had dusted Spike in his crypt, "and please let the story have a dusty ending" but they didn't.

Giles did what he did because he felt it was the only option he had left. Whilst I don't support what Giles did in that episode I can certainly understand it.

Buffy's my favourite character in the series, but she acted ridiculously in regards to Spike and the trigger. She had made no effort since 'Never Leave Me' to find out anything about the trigger and anytime anyone wanted to bring up the reality of the situation she became very dodgy and snappy towards them. In 'First Date' it's revealed the First has plans for Spike and she still refuses to let Spike leave town, not because of the mission but because, "(shes) not ready for him to not be here." She put her feelings above "the mission" contradicting her own mantra "the mission is what matters" and putting the lives of everyone she cared about at serious risk.

In ‘LMPTM’ she becomes unjustifiably suspicious again whilst in Wood’s office at the start of the episode when Giles mentions the trigger, “Spike! What about Spike!” and then got pissy with Giles when she found out he’d been looking into ways to solve the problem. Then she actually unties him, moments after the trigger just caused him to hit poor Dawn over the head with a bunk bed, and when Giles tires to speak to her about this she snaps “Don’t!” and storms off in a huff up stairs.

At this point she was being ridiculous, she unchained the uncontrollable, unpredictable vampire that had just tried to attack everyone (including her) and refused to discuss the very real serious problem of the trigger.

I can see why Giles felt it was his only option.

Side Note: It’s actually ironic that Giles was the guy who tried to kill Spike in ‘LMPTM’ yet he’s the one responsible for curing Spike and making what he did in ‘Chosen’ possible. Giles was the only one who bothered to find a way to de-trigger Spike, he was the one who brought the magical stone which went deep into Spike’s subconscious and let him overcome the trigger. So Giles actually deserves some credit for being the smart on here. If we'd left it up to Buffy Spike would have continued to be the First's puppet and would have wound up either possibly killing Buffy, one of the potentials, or one of the Scoobies or would have wound up dead with somebody being forced to stake him in self defence.