I really don't see how you can even put Angelus into the equation. He wasn't forced to hang out with Buffy without a soul. He was evil, turned good, and went evil again. Naturally, if you're evil and someone made you feel like a good person, once you're evil you're going to lash out at them again.
I agree.
🙂
I mean we saw how much it irritated the hell out of Spike that he couldn't hurt anyone.
Well, yes. It's only natural. Remember how horrified Buffy was when she lost her powers? It's the same thing.
I just watched season two, and I don't care what Joss or anyone else says, Spike didn't love Buffy back then.
Joss WROTE the show, therefore what he said was true. Something isn't going to stop being canon just because you don't agree with it.
😀 Although I will say that it's hard to believe that he was actually in love with her, considering he didn't know her, but what Joss says is true I guess.
🙂
He wanted her dead. Right before he left he says "God, he's gonna kill her" in reference to Buffy & Angelus sword fighting and right after he shrugs and takes off. He only aligned with Buffy in order to get Drusilla back. & like when he got the chip, he had no where else to go once Dru dumped him and ended up having to hang around Buffy & her friends.
He didn't know he loved her. And he was a vampire, of course he wanted her dead.
🙂 But Spike did say in Never Leave Me that he was going easy on her. ("No, you got off easy too.")
Then there's that whole "If Angelus was forced to hang aroud Buffy with a chip, he'd just get someone to kill her." Spike's done that before, when he couldn't do it himself. Even when he had the chip, it got to a point where he was fed up and tried to distance himself from the Scoobies and try to be evil again. & besides, like everyone else has said, Spike is the same person, soulless or not, chip or not... for the most part anyways. He's still sensitive, he still has the ability to love, he still has humanity.
And, that's the Spuffies' main argument right?
Uh, no... I've never heard of THAT argument before. Spuffy isn't about what Angel(us) did or did not do in comparison to Spike. It's about what Spike and Buffy had.
But, it's not even really fair to compare their relationships. Spike & Angel are two completely different people. Spuffy's & Bangel's relationships took completely different paths.
And some took better paths than others.
🙂
Buffy & Angel fell in love, got together, and after alot they had to end it because Angel felt she deserved more, and they both needed to do their own thing.
Exactly. They were both still developing into the people they were going to be. And that's another thing I find annoying about Bangel. They spent their entire relationship talking about how they could never be together, instead of actually enjoying their time together. Quite honestly I find it to be quite a drag, I always skip forward.
🙂
Spike & Buffy started a sexual relationship
Um, they most certainly didn't.
😀 Buffy and Spike FIRST started as mortal enemies. They then became hesitant allies, and then friends. I'd say their friendship started in S4, and really blossomed after he sacrificed himself for her in Intervention. In those last few episodes, she hung out in his crypt, just talking, considered his opinions, brought him with her on the bus, and entrusted him with Dawn.
In S6, they began a stronger friendship, built of mutual understanding for each other. Buffy only started the sexual relationship with him because 1, she wanted to feel something. 2, He loved her unconditionally. 3, He was strong and could hurt her. 4, she wanted him. I don't really make it out to be as awful as people like to discuss it as. It was a very interesting and explorative relationship. And afterwards, they were still friends. Like how they were sitting together and playing cards in Older and Faraway.
because he fell in love with her and she hated herself and used him to feel something... or anything after being taken from heaven. She ended it when she realized it was unhealthy to continue.
She ended it because she saw the great, loving relationship Riley and Sam had, and it made her realize, ESPECIALLY after being walked in on, that she couldn't do it any longer. If Riley and Sam hadn't come, and Spike HADN'T been "The Doctor", I'm sure it would've continued several episodes longer.
Bangel's are accused of "ignoring" season 7, but that was a friendship, not a relationship. I thought they made great friends, it really made me happy seeing them so close. I think it should've been that way, in the beginning. Him being there for her in the way he was in season 7, not sleeping with her.
They were defintely more than just friends.
😀 That was actual love, and good love is love where there is a strong friendship, too. One reason I don't like Bangel is because they weren't friends, and as said in Lovers Walk, they'd never be friends.
As I've said before, there were a million hints showing that Buffy loved him as more than a friend.
- In Dirty Girls she was completely jealous when she saw Spike and Faith together
- The way she would sleep (literally) with him (Touched/ Chosen) As Joss said, "their relationship had enough trust in it that it was physical and romantic, but not sexual." Most just FRIENDS aren't physical and romantic with each other, are they?
- In S8, saying she missed the sex they had, and her nurse- dream. I doubt that she would only like him as more than a friend AFTER he left.
And there are tons more.
🙂
IMO, he took advantage of her because he wanted her and she hated herself.
I don't think that we can blame Spike for Buffy's choices. In all cases, she initiated the contact, not Spike. Spike merely gave her what she wanted.
And in Gone, he DID tell her to leave if there wasn't any love in the relationship.
It's funny, (stereotypically) it seems that Buffy and Spike switched genders in S6. Spike wanted to talk about their relationship ("Can we talk?" "Vocal chords wise, yes. With each other, no." "We have to talk." -Tabula Rasa), analyze it, and have more than just sex. He wanted a REAL relationship, with love and friendship to boot. And then we have Buffy, who wanted to pretend nothing happened and preferred one night stands.
Watch the scene with Buffy and Tara in Dead Things and that will tell you why I'm not a Spuffy. She's literally sobbing because she hates herself and what she's done with Spike.
But it's not really fair to judge an entire relationship on one season that's not even the real Spuffy season. S6 was the finding themselves with others Season, S7 was the Spuffy love season.
First off, "Unlike Angel"?!? Unlike Angel what?
I mean that Spike was completely good when he had a soul, whereas Angel was still a bit sketchy. When Spike had a soul, he never hit Buffy. Angel hit her twice. Spike never bit/ sired anyone, Angel sired the sailor in Why We Fight and killed Drogyn. Sure, it was for the greater good, but it's still essentially wrong. Also, Spike never mind- raped anybody, whereas Angel did several times. (I Will Remember You, the whole Connor thing...)
Second of all, whenever the the topic of the attempted rape is brought up Spuffies clamour over themselves to tell us all he was soulless so it doesn't count. Ok, but then when Spike does good deeds sans soul you all rush even faster to say it is testament to what a unique vampire he is and his capacity for humanity is beautiful.
Sorry, I meant that I had a WHOLE BUNCH of reasons for why Spike wasn't entirely at blame, but the soulless thing was just the quickest to say. And I don't rush to say how unique and humane Spike is, at least I don't think I do.
😀 When I talk about the Spuffy relationship, I prefer to discuss S7 and occasionally the build- up needed to get there, but I like to stay more on the two of them as a team, a couple, rather then the two of them separately.
Anyway, as for the AR, here's my analysis from my thread Spuffy: Season 6 Style (
Spuffy: S6 Style - Buffy-Boards)
Skipping forward a bit, I must come to rest on the attempted rape in Seeing Red. IMO, that was an unfortunate misreading of signals. Spike, after seeing Buffy's hurt and jealous reaction to Spikes time with Anya, assumed that she still wanted him, but needed him to initiate it this time. He didn't understand that their relationship had boundaries. Although we often forget, Spike in this season was soulless. The soul (in the verse) is like a mental compass, a tool for determining and undertanding the thin line between right and wrong. Without his soul, Spike couldn't really begin to be able to understand the can/ should in their relationship. One could say that from not having a soul to having a soul is like the journey from a child to an adult, being specific towards adolescence. Even more specific, it's quite similar to the brain of a child going from concrete thinking to abstract thinking. In the beginning, they only can believe what they can see, but once they become abstract thinkers they can understand things that they CAN'T see.
Merely for support purposes, I would like to say that rapists rape for a feeling of power and control that they get from degrading others. Spike has specifically said many times that one of the things he loved most about her was her strength. I definitely do not see Spike trying to take her strength and power away from her. I'm not trying to excuse his actions, but he assumed that that was what she still wanted. Also, Spike is essentially a poet. Jane Espenson said "when he falls in love he has the heart of a poet". He's very romantic and loyal, definitely not the characteristics of a real rapist.
Continuing on, the Spuffy S6 sexual relationship WAS quite destructive, no doubt about that. Both sides were hurting each other greatly. One event that is quite similar to the AR, if not worse then the AR since it was an act made for a feeling a power and control, was the beating in Dead Things. Buffy beat the crap out of Spike, put all her weight and pain on him instead. Buffy also actually raped him in Gone. Not attempted rape, but rape. Spike told her he didn't want to have sex with her if there wasn't any love in the relationship. He told her to get dressed and leave if he couldn't have all of her (body AND soul) and what did she do? She sexed him anyway. That constitutes as rape.
This is slightly off- topic, but there are many reasons that we often dismiss Buffy's actions, but hold Spike responsible for everything he does, even though he's soulless. Reason 1, the show is from Buffy's perspective, which means that since Buffy thinks that she's right and he's wrong, we're bound to feel the same. 2, in the show, Buffy is seen as the protagonist, and Spike is portrayed as the antagonist, which generally makes anything the protangonist does "for the greater good." 3, Sex. Or gender, however you want to say it. Buffy's a woman, and Spike's a man. Although it sounds sexist, by nature it's natural for primates like humans to regard women as the lesser sex in terms of power, which makes the actions of a female much more justifiable than that of a male. We often forget that in this show, the women, more specifically Buffy, are the ones with the power. Nobody has EVER defeated Buffy before.
Moving forward again, we all know how Spike reacted to his actions. He got a soul, and they ALMOST got their "happily ever after."
