Question Was Season 4 really that bad?

[Nothing13]

Angelus is ridiculous, this isn’t the quiet sinister Angelus we’ve had before in Buffy S2 or even pretend Angelus in Enemies/Eternity. This is S3 Dork!Angel but evil. If this Angelus was in S2 I think Buffy may have staked him earlier in complete annoyance 😂

I agree.
He was too loud/talkative, goofy, crude and overhyped for no reason with the ridiculous vampire/demon bar.
I also find him less effective in Angel season 4 than I do in Buffy season 2, Amends' flashbacks and pretend Angelus in Enemies and Eternity. He was more annoying than sinister and evil. He was too overacted.

I think he didn't have that kind of "poetic evilness" that he had in Btvs early seasons and Ats1. His kind of evilness was always linked to a form of corruption and mockery of "goodness": mockery of Christianity or "important" festivities (mockery of Christmas in Amends' flashbacks, mockery of Saint Valentine's Day in Bewitched, Bothered and Bewildered).
Also, I have noticed that Angel, from Ats season 3 onward, was represented as more goofy and stupid. For some reason, Angelus became more annoying (as his depiction in TGIQ flashbacks).

-Stoic and angsty brooding Angel of early seasons turns into sinister and evil Angelus.
-Goofy and dorkish Angel of later seasons turns into annoying Angelus.

My problem of Angelus' depiction in Ats 4 summarized 😂:

Angelus: Dear Buffy. I'm still trying to decide the best way to send my regards.
Spike: Why don't you rip her lungs out? It might make an impression.
Angelus: Lacks... poetry.

 

[Bop]

The Cordy/Connor stuff was terrible.

Agreed but it always is 😂

Willow coming back and making a joke of all the show's problems and defeating Evil Cordy relatively easily made the show look worse in context .

I don't see who else could have re-ensouled Angel or fought Jasmine magically.

The writers then flipped things suddenly making Faith suicidal and Angel spout clichéd trite nonsense that had no basis with what came before.

I wouldn't say Faith was suicidal I think she just had a strong 'it is what it is' attitude toward dying for a good cause.

 

[Kendar]

Angelus is ridiculous, this isn’t the quiet sinister Angelus we’ve had before in Buffy S2 or even pretend Angelus in Enemies/Eternity. This is S3 Dork!Angel but evil. If this Angelus was in S2 I think Buffy may have staked him earlier in complete annoyance 😂

Very much this. you know how many humans Angelus kills during all of this? 0. Zip. Nada.

He's so unlike his former self in Season 2 that I spent most of the time thinking that Angel was running a deep con for some reason.

 

[Mott1]

I'm just rewatching s4 of Angel now, and in places it's as bad as I remember - the worst, imho, of the Buffy/Angel original series run. I wonder in some ways whether rather than having evil Cordy/petulant Connor front and centre plot-wise it might have been best to concentrate on dark Wesley instead, as the Wes/Lilah/Faith stuff was by far some of the season's strongest material, along with Soulless and some of Spin The Bottle (particularly Denisov's brilliant contrast of goofy 'young Wes' against the serious 'old Wes').

What if Wes had gone to work for Wolfram and Hart, with the gang assuming he'd been seduced into evil (literally and metaphorically) by Lilah, and only later turn out he was a double-agent who hadn't let the old gang in on it - why would he, when he was so bitter towards them over their rejection of him!? Far less OTT and more grown-up than the cartoon Angelus who doesn't actually kill any people, Cordy with white eyes (is it me or is Charisma Carpenter phoned-in and unconvincing for the whole of this season?), Jasmine turning up too late for the season arc and one-time arch-nemesis Wolfram and Hart being effortlessly massacred by a walking rock formation?

 

[Anyanka Bunny Slayer]

It's a shame they didn't give Vincent Kartheiser more to do than sulk and complain. He's a gifted actor, and had such a powerful presence for one so young. As annoying as Connor was, there were moments when he was VERY compelling.

Also:

1. The Wesley/Lilah scenes were really quite good. I thoroughly enjoyed their unspoken emotional attachment to each other....amidst the mind games, of course.

2. Unlike his appearance on Buffy, Angelus wasn't at all frightening in S4, he was a complete buffoon.

3. Faith was a badass...but Wesley more than matched her in that respect. Beautiful seeing them work together!

4. Gunn loved Fred so much that he killed the professor so SHE wouldn't have to. And she ultimately rejects him because of that?! He should've thrown her into the damn portal! Grrr.

5. I LOVED seeing Willow!! What a pleasant surprise, and it totally worked for story.

6. Spin the Bottle was the funniest episode in the series. I swear to God, I still laugh my butt off whenever I watch it. "The government gave me bad hair?!' 😅

7. "The House Always Wins" was completely stupid and unnecessary.

 

[ILLYRIAN]

If you enjoyed watching season 4 then no, it was not that bad but then I liked the whole series !

 

[nightshade]

Season 4 had some great episodes and scenes. However I think it had too much going on, I wish it had been written differently, so we had a longer Angelus arc and really went into that, but still with the Faith episodes.
Although I'm not a fan of the Jasmine story, the Magic Bullet is a great Fred episode.

 

[ILLYRIAN]

For the series to be as popular as it was it had to be written for the younger viewer, even though it gained a M15+ rating here. Now if the remake was made for an older viewer, it might well be interesting to the masses - and yes, even for season 4.

 

[Mott1]

Amy Acker did some fab work during the Jasmine episodes, didn't she? And I've read articles about Carpenter's real-life pregnancy causing production issues during the earlier parts of the season.

I agree with Anyanka Bunny Slayer here, notably about Mr Kartheiser. Like Trachtenberg his character was annoying at times, making the protagonists less fun to be around, but he did a fine job with challenging material. His graceful, more mature send-off episode in s5 was well-deserved and wrapped up the Holtz storyline neatly.

 

[Anyanka Bunny Slayer]

His graceful, more mature send-off episode in s5 was well-deserved and wrapped up the Holtz storyline neatly.

"Origin" was a GREAT episode, one of my absolute favourites. And soooo awesome to watch Connor go from dorky, "average" kid to hell dimension spawn. (Plus, it FINALLY gave Vincent a chance to show what a good actor he is)

The scenes with Connor and Sahjan were hilarious. 😄

 

[Starch Heaven]

I really hate everything with Cordelia and Connor, but other than that it's a great season. The stakes were very high and I loved both the Jasmine and Angelus arcs. We also had some amazing character stuff with people like Wesley and Lilah and also Fred towards the end.

 

[TamsinValencia]

It had its moments and a few great big bads. I liked the transition from high school to college. I thought it was realistically done.

 

[Mott1]

Also, was it me or did Fred actually seem attracted to Willow in 'Orpheus'? Though the latter eventually warned her off (a little reluctantly, she seemed to have better chemistry than with Kennedy, whether down to the actresses or not!) Fred didn't actually state she wasn't into women too, she just looked a bit deflated... they might have made a cute couple!

 

[Tueuse de Vampires]

Also, was it me or did Fred actually seem attracted to Willow in 'Orpheus'? Though the latter eventually warned her off (a little reluctantly, she seemed to have better chemistry than with Kennedy, whether down to the actresses or not!) Fred didn't actually state she wasn't into women too, she just looked a bit deflated... they might have made a cute couple!

I thought that was just Fred being Fred, and everyone sort of thinking Fred is cute.

I'm just in the middle of watching season 4, and I think I'm only watching it for a second time now. I started a larger rewatch of Buffy/Angel with my boyfriend (first time watch for him!) and remember telling him that Angel is also a really good show, only season 4 is something we'll just need to get through. Funnily enough, now that I'm actually watching it again, it's a lot better than I remember!

What did bother me and still does is what happened to Cordelia, which kind of ruined her character and all the growth over the previous years, plus her being then written out of the show altogether. I really did not care for that, as she's always been my favourite character from both shows. Apart from that though, season 4 is pretty good! It's a treat rewatching it right now.

 

[hoponlilmama]

Also, was it me or did Fred actually seem attracted to Willow in 'Orpheus'? Though the latter eventually warned her off (a little reluctantly, she seemed to have better chemistry than with Kennedy, whether down to the actresses or not!) Fred didn't actually state she wasn't into women too, she just looked a bit deflated... they might have made a cute couple!

I think they had a bit of a moment!

S4 - I think it got a little too weird. I think the biggest hurdle for the audience was the Connor/Cordy thing. Even thinking about it makes me cringe. Then The Beast, Jasmine, and Connor was just the equivalent of S5 Dawn, minus the "get out, get out, get out!!"

That said, the season does have its good moments. It's not all bad.