Was Spike A Good Man?

[white avenger]

Angel and Angelus are written so differently and independently of one another that the most casual fan can tell that there's no way Angel and Angelus are the same guy.

Spike, and "Spike-us" (I like that term 🙂), run into a problem. They're written the same, or very, very close to one another. n.

This is also a mistake that is very easy make.Yes, the "Spike-us" in Season 6 is quite similar to Spike in Season 7, but if you compare the Spike as he was first introduced in "School Hard," in Season 2, or even as he was portrayed in Season 4's "Harsh Light Of Day,"you can see a much greater difference. Spike, as a character, evolved over the course of the series, from total monster to unquestioned Champion, with several definite stages in between. There wasn't any sudden transformation the way that we saw with Angelus/Angel, and, because of that, the difference gets missed more often than noticed.

I have no doubt that there were stages of development from Angelus to Angel as we saw him in Season 1, but the problem was, we never saw them. We saw this tall mysterious guy in a velvet sport coat who had gone through his stages of development, beginning with initial shock and guilt at the realization of what a monster he actually was, through the rat eating alley dweller who Whistler recruited to "help that Slayer," but we never saw that development the way that we did with Spike, or at least until years later, in flashbacks.

 

[kittenpoker]

I don't believe that Spike truly evolved without the soul. I think he stayed true to who he is but with the presence of the chip viewers were tricked into thinking he changed and grew when in reality he was simply confined. Some points to consider:

1. Spike has always retained some humanity
This has been commented on by several other characters over the course of the show. Note that Spike is not the only vampire to ever retain their humanity (or at least some semblance of it) however he is the most notable case.

Harmony immediately jumps to mind here.... In fact, I think she becomes a better person after she becomes a vampire. She really shows a desire at least to care. And her own sensitiveness comes out.

We see him turn his mother because he wants to cure her. We see him protect and love Drusilla with an affection and devotion that is actually quite touching.

This then means that he will protect Buffy, Dawn and Joyce (three people he cares about) and by extension, The Scoobies.

True. 🙂

Note that he never seems to care nor take notice when The Scoobies are injured (Tara's mind sucking, Giles getting speared etc.) but he will help protect them because he loves Buffy.

I disagree....I think his patience with tara, after he gets burned from her opening the blinds in that van "it's ok, let her play peek-a-boo with the sun" [/QUOTE]

 

[EVIL UU]

[MENTION=9316]ladydorotea[/MENTION]

Heck, what should be surprising and appalling is how many still defend the AR, presenting it as something that Buffy was responsible for herself - by engaging in rough foreplay beforehand. Especially how many do this - and honestly consider themselves to be hard-core feminists. This is the part that I find especially twisted.

The way some people in this fandom understand feminism can be pretty baffling.

Shadow Men create thousands of slayers, no knowledge, consent etc.

Patriarchy! Oppression!

Buffy and Willow do the same exact thing...

Empowerment! Feminism!

Sometimes I really do not get fellow BtVS fans.

 

[EffyStonem]

I honestly think that the best analogy in regards to Spike in Seasons 5 & 6 is when Buffy says "You're like a serial killer in prison!"

I think this is the perfect comparison. Serial killers put away for decades, forced into a new routine, a new way of life, will adapt. They will learn new routines, new behaviours because they are forced too. They might even undergo personality changes or change aspects of who they used to be. They do this because they have no choice but to accept their constraints or die fighting them. However they are still serial killers. If you let them loose, they will kill again, without remorse, without thought.

Spike is exactly the same. He is restrained by the chip, unable to act out his deepest desires and urges. So he adapts. He changes his routine, he becomes one of the Scoobies because he has no other choice. Rest assured, though, if the chip were to come out he would end up reverting (as we see briefly in Season 6 when he thinks the chip has malfunctioned).

The bottom line is that without the chip Spike never would have become one of the Scoobies. Everything that appears to change is a direct result of the chip.

 

[Robb Stark]

I think in a way, this is getting more complicated than it needs to be. Prior to regaining his soul, Spike was not a good person, just as Harmony wasn't either. He had no reservations about butchering anyone he wanted, the only thing stopping him was the chip.

And Spike's love for Buffy didn't make him "better". It made him want his soul back yes (and I've always said that morality aside, that's damn impressive), but to assume that his desire to do so was out of nobility or a desire to do good is just romanticizing the character. He did it, as Angel so eloquently said in S5, to "get into a girl's pants". That's it. He knew he had no shot with her without a soul. He does good things without a soul, yes, things he doesn't have to do (like protecting Dawn), but his motivation for doing so is for Buffy. If Dawn had been important to Drusilla in S2, he would have protected her then too. I have never, ever doubted Spike's capacity to love, and his ability to do so certainly is an admirable quality in him. But to say that his soulless actions were done because of altruism seems highly suspect to me, to make the character into something you want him to be. He did those things because he was in love, not because it was "right". I don't think a soulless Spike cares one bit about what's right or wrong. It's similar to why he fights with Buffy against Angelus in S2. It's not because he wants to "save" people. His interests are self-serving, they just mesh with the good guy's at the time.

Now, that changes hugely when he regains his soul. After that, I have no doubt whatsoever that he's a good person. His actions in S7, S5 of Angel and in the comics prove pretty conclusively that he fights for what's right and to protect people, and that he really is a champion.

 

[white avenger]

He does good things without a soul, yes, things he doesn't have to do (like protecting Dawn), but his motivation for doing so is for Buffy.

I don't think a soulless Spike cares one bit about what's right or wrong. It's similar to why he fights with Buffy against Angelus in S2. It's not because he wants to "save" people. His interests are self-serving, they just mesh with the good guy's at the time.

Now, that changes hugely when he regains his soul. After that, I have no doubt whatsoever that he's a good person. His actions in S7, S5 of Angel and in the comics prove pretty conclusively that he fights for what's right and to protect people, and that he really is a champion.

I certainly don't see Spike in Season 5 or 6 as the fully developed Champion that he will become, but I have a hard time accepting as fact that he patrolled with and, basically, protected the Scoobies, as well as guarding Dawn during the summer between Seasons 5 & 6 in any hope of a reward from Buffy. He made a promise to a lady, and he kept that promise when, as far as he knew, there would be no personal gain whatsoever for him in doing so. Even though he patrolled with the Scoobies it was made quite plain to him that he was not, and never would be, an actual member of their group. Aside from Dawn, I seriously doubt that there would have been much protest if he had simply packed his bags and left Sunnydale the next night after the battle with Glory. The only possible reason for Spike to remain is a sense of honor and loyalty to someone who, as far as he knows, he will never be answerable to for his actions. That makes him, in my book, an honorable man, at the very least, and that's a lot closer to being a good man than Angel ever was in all of his years with a soul, until he first laid eyes on Buffy. You might even go so far as to say that, ultimately, "getting in a girl's pants" was a motivation shared by both vampires.

 

[Gum Gnome33]

And Spike's love for Buffy didn't make him "better". It made him want his soul back yes (and I've always said that morality aside, that's damn impressive),

Exactly; it made him want to get his soul back, ergo, better. Good? No. Better? Yes, clearly. So what if it was for love that he wanted it? A vampire wanting his soul back, for love of a human being--heck, a vampire desiring to be loved by a human being--is progress. It represents a shift in values, however modest Spike's was, before his regression.

but to assume that his desire to do so was out of nobility or a desire to do good is just romanticizing the character.....But to say that his soulless actions were done because of altruism seems highly suspect to me, to make the character into something you want him to be. He did those things because he was in love, not because it was "right". I don't think a soulless Spike cares one bit about what's right or wrong.

I agree wholeheartedly, but I don't think anyone here is arguing that Spike was noble, altruistic, or compelled to do good for the sake of it before he had his soul. His motivation was Buffy, absolutely. And along the way, he did a lot of good things and exhibited a lot of good traits. As I've said, he was a vampire who made progress like no other, and then regressed.

What still perplexes me about the entire counter argument to Spike's progress is the repeatedly articulated notion that the chip somehow "forced" Spike to behave as he did. Again, the chip forced Spike not to kill others with his own two hands, (fangs, whatever). It didn't stop him from eating them, getting others to kill them, or doing everything he could to make their lives a living hell.

What did stop Spike from doing those things, then? Not the chip--and certainly his own free will dictated his actions--certainly it was inspired by love for Buffy. Obsession at first, and then something more.

As we were discussing earlier in the thread, it's difficult to know where Buffy's "persuasion" leaves off and Spike's acts are more genuinely reflective of a shift in values. I attempted to point out some tell-tale behavior indicating such progression toward an understanding of different values yesterday, but I'm afraid they got lost in all of the posts.

-First and foremost, look at the period of time in which Buffy was dead. Explain to me how exactly Spike was acting purely out of the promise of getting "into her pants" in the following scenarios:

There are, what, 12 cemeteries in Sunnydale--why go to the one which confronts him with the task of saving the scoobies lest he stay on their good side, (assuming he even cares about doing so now that Buffy is gone). Why not get his rocks off by going to another and fighting demons there?

Continuing to protect Dawn.

That summer as well, Spike insists that Willow get the 'bot to stop flirting with him. He can't bear it. As we've said, yes, it's chalked up to predictable Spike love. But it's something more--it's humanistic love; it's more representative of a human being loving another human being than a vampire loving whomever.

Other characteristics that indicate a shift in something more than just behavior; more like empathy than ever before. Consider these instances in which BUFFY IS NOT WITHIN EARSHOT:

-Reassuring Tara that his hand is fine when it is clearly not, in an attempt to assuage her guilt for opening the curtains.

-Reassuring Dawn that she's not evil--that it's not her fault that he nearly died and that Tara's brain was sucked--genuinely trying to make her feel better about being the key.

-Everything I already mentioned about that summer when Buffy was gone.

Another instance which shows progress--whether or not we believe he should be forgiven because he goes to get a soul in the aftermath of Seeing Red-- the fact is that he does it because he believes that getting a soul will ensure that he won't ever do it again, (he has a very black and white understanding of what a soul can do).
-"Why'd you do it?"
-"To be hers...to be the kind of man who would NEVER...to be a kind of man."

So yes, it is to win back Buffy's affections. But it's also to ensure the he would never hurt the woman he loved, again. Progress--a shift in values.

Here's something else that Spike did while soulless: he didn't kill Buffy. I know, I know, he'd never do that if he "wanted to get in her pants." But what about the fact that he's a soulless vampire, experiencing unrequited love from the woman with whom he is obsessed? Psychopathic, to say the least--a demon. When she finally rejects him, after using him for sex, we all know he can kill her. Or anyway, he can try.

In the beginning of Season 5, when the obsession is there but Spike hasn't quite put his finger on it, his entire raison d'être is "get my chip out so I can kill Buffy." The real sentiment there is, "I can't have her. She's better than me. I want to kill her." In season 6, Spike CAN kill her. He can take his broken heart and do something truly evil with it, if he wants to.

In any other case, this seems like small potatoes. Oh, he doesn't kill her? What a mensch. But we are talking about a soulless vampire and the progress he makes toward shifting his intentions, and this parallel from season 5 to season 6 is worth noting. Again, please understand that his doesn't make him good. But certainly this shift should not be overlooked.

 

[Robb Stark]

I certainly don't see Spike in Season 5 or 6 as the fully developed Champion that he will become, but I have a hard time accepting as fact that he patrolled with and, basically, protected the Scoobies, as well as guarding Dawn during the summer between Seasons 5 & 6 in any hope of a reward from Buffy. He made a promise to a lady, and he kept that promise when, as far as he knew, there would be no personal gain whatsoever for him in doing so. Even though he patrolled with the Scoobies it was made quite plain to him that he was not, and never would be, an actual member of their group. Aside from Dawn, I seriously doubt that there would have been much protest if he had simply packed his bags and left Sunnydale the next night after the battle with Glory. The only possible reason for Spike to remain is a sense of honor and loyalty to someone who, as far as he knows, he will never be answerable to for his actions. That makes him, in my book, an honorable man, at the very least, and that's a lot closer to being a good man than Angel ever was in all of his years with a soul, until he first laid eyes on Buffy. You might even go so far as to say that, ultimately, "getting in a girl's pants" was a motivation shared by both vampires.

You make a very fair point. Spike certainly didn't have to stay to protect Dawn after Buffy died, but he did. I think even without a soul, it's perfectly fair to say that Spike has a degree of honor, and that's something most vampires don't have. It's certainly something Angelus doesn't have. There is however, a difference between being an honorable man and a good man. They aren't mutually exclusive of course, but an example I'll draw is Stannis Baratheon from Game of Thrones, who I think is an honorable man but not necessarily a "good" one (although that story isn't finished, and Stannis is progressing). The reverse, in my opinion, is true of Giles. I think he's a good man, but I don't think he has much honor at all. It is damn honorable of Spike to stay and protect Dawn, absolutely.

However, let me ask you a question. With Buffy dead and Spike guarding Dawn, let's say his chip stops working. He continues to protect Dawn, because he cares about her and Buffy's memory, which I think he would do. Now, do you think for one second though he wouldn't feed on people if he had the chance? Not Dawn, but just regular people. No Slayer to stop him, no chip to prevent him, he would, no doubt. If Buffy never comes back in S6, I think Spike would stay with Dawn, but I don't think he'd have any reservations about killing people he doesn't care about. Ergo, not a good person.

I'd like to preface this paragraph by saying that I did NOT start a Spuffy/Bangel debate, it was a certain person we'll call Bright Arranger.

Spike got his soul back from one specific purpose: To have Buffy. Angelus had his soul forced upon him. There are plenty of people out there who don't actively fight crime or demons, and we don't call them bad people, yet for some reason the anti-Bangel crowd loves to do that with Angel. Spike had something to go back to, someone to go back to, while Angel had no idea what in the hell was happening. The only way Spike was going to be a part of Buffy's life after getting his soul back was to be a part of her Slaying as well. Of course he's not going to take years off and away like Angel did. Angel didn't do anything really good or bad for decades. He just existed, like millions and millions of people do most of their lives. Why does he get crap for that?

And saying Angel did everything he did because he wanted sex with Buffy is just completely false. He's inspired by her, absolutely, but not to sleep with her. Otherwise, why does he become an even bigger and better hero when he moves to L.A., without her?

I don't want this to be an Angel vs. Spike debate. With souls, I think they're both incredible heroes I really like, I just prefer Angel. I don't think there's any real "proof" that one is better than the other, when all things are equal.

Exactly; it made him want to get his soul back, ergo, better. Good? No. Better? Yes, clearly. So what if it was for love that he wanted it? A vampire wanting his soul back, for love of a human being--heck, a vampire desiring to be loved by a human being--is progress. It represents a shift in values, however modest Spike's was, before his regression.

Maybe. A vampire loving a human is certainly unique, but I don't know if it's anything more than him being in love with Drusilla. I mean, if Dru had told him that she'd take him back if he got his soul, I think he would have. It's a testament to how strongly Spike can love, but there are lots of bad people who love. It makes him different, sure, because most vampires don't love like he does, but I don't think that's a prerequisite to being a "good person".

What still perplexes me about the entire counter argument to Spike's progress is the repeatedly articulated notion that the chip somehow "forced" Spike to behave as he did. Again, the chip forced Spike not to kill others with his own two hands, (fangs, whatever). It didn't stop him from eating them, getting others to kill them, or doing everything he could to make their lives a living hell.

What did stop Spike from doing those things, then? Not the chip--and certainly his own free will dictated his actions--certainly it was inspired by love for Buffy. Obsession at first, and then something more.

I agree with this, for the most part. The chip didn't control his decisions or alter his motivations, and I've never said it did. And as we see in S4, Spike does pretty much every single one of those things you mentioned. Once he falls in love with Buffy, he stops doing them when he thinks she'll notice, because he knows she'll hate him if he does. I mean, people forget, but he was "The Doctor" in the episode Riley came back in.

As we were discussing earlier in the thread, it's difficult to know where Buffy's "persuasion" leaves off and Spike's acts are more genuinely reflective of a shift in values. I attempted to point out some tell-tale behavior indicating such progression toward an understanding of different values yesterday, but I'm afraid they got lost in all of the posts.

I read your examples (I just minimized for space sake) and it goes to what I said above. I believe very firmly that Spike does indeed have a sense of honor, but that doesn't mean he's a good person. I believe he very much cares for Dawn, at first because she's important to Buffy and later because she reminds him of Buffy. It's impressive, absolutely, and I've never denied that.

But I'll pose the same question as I did to [MENTION=6758]white avenger[/MENTION]: If Spike could have in S6, do you honestly believe he wouldn't have killed other people, had he the chance? There are plenty of bad people with their own code of honor, just as there are good people who have no honor. I think the best people tend to have both, but they can be exclusive.

 

[Gum Gnome33]

Maybe. A vampire loving a human is certainly unique, but I don't know if it's anything more than him being in love with Drusilla. I mean, if Dru had told him that she'd take him back if he got his soul, I think he would have. It's a testament to how strongly Spike can love, but there are lots of bad people who love. It makes him different, sure, because most vampires don't love like he does, but I don't think that's a prerequisite to being a "good person".

Certainly his love doesn't make him good; as I've said, he isn't good while he's soulless, though he does good things and begins to shift his values and perspectives toward a better place. But I maintain that it was falling for a human being that did that, (in addition to his underlying humanity). So if Dru had asked him to get a soul for her, considering the fact that he hadn't begun to make that transformation yet, I doubt he'd have done it.

Once he falls in love with Buffy, he stops doing them when he thinks she'll notice, because he knows she'll hate him if he does. I mean, people forget, but he was "The Doctor" in the episode Riley came back in.

But as I pointed out, there are many examples that take place nowhere near Buffy, and when she was dead. Therefore, there are times during which Spike actually did good things/made good decisions, without the direct benefit of Buffy's approval. As for the Doctor story line, I know, I didn't forget. Like the AR, it's an example of the regression; the fact that he wasn't actually good and couldn't be wholly good without a soul.

I read your examples (I just minimized for space sake) and it goes to what I said above. I believe very firmly that Spike does indeed have a sense of honor, but that doesn't mean he's a good person. I believe he very much cares for Dawn, at first because she's important to Buffy and later because she reminds him of Buffy. It's impressive, absolutely, and I've never denied that.

Then it actually sounds like, at the core, we actually agree!

But I'll pose the same question as I did to [MENTION=6758]white avenger[/MENTION]: If Spike could have in S6, do you honestly believe he wouldn't have killed other people, had he the chance?

As I said, he didn't kill Buffy. And he very much could have. A psychopathic demon would presumably do just that after being "wronged," (ie rejected) by the object of his desire. Again, he wanted to do it in the beginning of season 5, before he began to change. Ergo, he had definitely made progress.

As for others, there's no way we can know. All we know is that when he realized he actually could kill a human being, (Buffy), he didn't. I mean, why didn't he kill her and take back the 'bot? A vampire who'd made absolutely no progress would have done just that. Sick, twisted--vampire.

 

[white avenger]

However, let me ask you a question. With Buffy dead and Spike guarding Dawn, let's say his chip stops working. He continues to protect Dawn, because he cares about her and Buffy's memory, which I think he would do. Now, do you think for one second though he wouldn't feed on people if he had the chance? Not Dawn, but just regular people. No Slayer to stop him, no chip to prevent him, he would, no doubt. If Buffy never comes back in S6, I think Spike would stay with Dawn, but I don't think he'd have any reservations about killing people he doesn't care about. Ergo, not a good person.

I'd like to preface this paragraph by saying that I did NOT start a Spuffy/Bangel debate, it was a certain person we'll call Bright Arranger.

Spike got his soul back from one specific purpose: To have Buffy. Angelus had his soul forced upon him. There are plenty of people out there who don't actively fight crime or demons, and we don't call them bad people, yet for some reason the anti-Bangel crowd loves to do that with Angel. Spike had something to go back to, someone to go back to, while Angel had no idea what in the hell was happening. The only way Spike was going to be a part of Buffy's life after getting his soul back was to be a part of her Slaying as well. Of course he's not going to take years off and away like Angel did. Angel didn't do anything really good or bad for decades. He just existed, like millions and millions of people do most of their lives. Why does he get crap for that?

And saying Angel did everything he did because he wanted sex with Buffy is just completely false. He's inspired by her, absolutely, but not to sleep with her. Otherwise, why does he become an even bigger and better hero when he moves to L.A., without her?

I don't want this to be an Angel vs. Spike debate. With souls, I think they're both incredible heroes I really like, I just prefer Angel. I don't think there's any real "proof" that one is better than the other, when all things are equal.






I read your examples (I just minimized for space sake) and it goes to what I said above. I believe very firmly that Spike does indeed have a sense of honor, but that doesn't mean he's a good person. I believe he very much cares for Dawn, at first because she's important to Buffy and later because she reminds him of Buffy. It's impressive, absolutely, and I've never denied that.

But I'll pose the same question as I did to [MENTION=6758]white avenger[/MENTION]: If Spike could have in S6, do you honestly believe he wouldn't have killed other people, had he the chance? There are plenty of bad people with their own code of honor, just as there are good people who have no honor. I think the best people tend to have both, but they can be exclusive.

(I don't know who this Bright Arranger guy is, but from the way that you talk about him, he sounds like a witty, charming, astute, and totally loveable sort of person. I'd like to meet him sometime.)

And now, to begin:

If Spike's chip had ceased to work after Season 5, would he resume feeding on humans? Possibly, but I somehow think that he wouldn't, just because he would know that Dawn wouldn't like it. On the other hand, with no chip to restrain him, I would hope that he wouldn't take so much crap off of Giles and Xander anymore. But, lest we forget, Angel fed on humans after he got his soul. He just quit feeding on babies and virgins and started getting murderers and rapists. There were probably a few people around Sunnydale that deserved to be bitten.

As for my "get into a girl's pants" comment, I wasn't so much trying to belittle what Angel did in Sunnydale or his purely honorable feelings for Buffy as to point out that, soul or no soul, the same girl and their feelings for her, were directly responsible for both vampires becoming heroes. But by the time that he went in search of his soul, I do believe that it was finally clear to Spike that Buffy was never going to move permanently into the darkness with him. Whether or not he honestly thought that his having a soul would allow him to move into the light with her, I really have my doubts. "Giving the Slayer what she deserves" could just be interpreted too many ways. I am certain that he got his soul for Buffy, but exactly what he wanted or hoped her reaction would be, I just don't know. I'm pretty certain, though, that he didn't have any delusions of Buffy throwing herself into his arms with mad declarations of undying love. Maybe he thought, or hoped, that having a soul might give him a chance with her, but nothing more.

Would Spike have killed people in Season 6 if the chip had stopped working? Maybe. But what does that prove? Angel killed people when it was necessary. That doesn't necessary make either man evil OR good. I seem to recall even Buffy, perfect example that she is, sending a few Knights of Byzantium to that Great Round Table In The Sky in Season 6

 

[ladydorotea]

Would Spike have killed people in Season 6 if the chip had stopped working? Maybe. But what does that prove? Angel killed people when it was necessary. That doesn't necessary make either man evil OR good. I seem to recall even Buffy, perfect example that she is, sending a few Knights of Byzantium to that Great Round Table In The Sky in Season 6

This is what I call a masterful misdirection. I applaud your agility in navigating the dispute - but the point of fact would be that where Spike's chip to malfunction in S6, Spike would return to killing people regularly and for food and fun not 'when it was necessary'. Although for a vampire I suppose food and fun constitutes necessity. So, yeah, if you compare Buffy killing Knights of Byzantium with Spike and Dru killing that homeless guy who begged them to stop but they bit even harder - then yup - soulless Spike would be a 'Good Man'.

 

[white avenger]

This is what I call a masterful misdirection. I applaud your agility in navigating the dispute - but the point of fact would be that where Spike's chip to malfunction in S6, Spike would return to killing people regularly and for food and fun not 'when it was necessary'. Although for a vampire I suppose food and fun constitutes necessity. So, yeah, if you compare Buffy killing Knights of Byzantium with Spike and Dru killing that homeless guy who begged them to stop but they bit even harder - then yup - soulless Spike would be a 'Good Man'.

Maybe you missed the part further down in my post where I said that Angel, WITH a soul, still killed and fed on humans, though he apparently only fed on murderers, rapists, and others of hat ilk. also said that I believed that the chances were quite good that Spike would resist the temptation to do that, simply on the grounds that Dan would disapprove. And I firmly believe that Dawn's feelings in the matter would mean more to him than the temptation of a meal of sweet, fresh, teenaged girl blood. By that time, Spike was quite accustomed to feeding on pig's blood.

After regaining his soul, Angel continued to feed on humans, I think, primarily because Darla, Dru, and Spike did, and expected him to do the same. Plus, apparently, it never occurred to him that he could get animal blood from most butcher shops until Whistler told him that he could. From that, I would guess that a combination of peer pressure and ignorance were the primary reasons for Angel doing what he dis.

Even without a soul, Spike would still resist feeding on humans out of a sense of honor., by which I mean that he knew that he would not be able to fulfill his promise to take care of Dawn if he started killing again. The Scoobies wouldn't let him near her. So, just like with Angel, Spike's dietary habits would be dictated by peer pressure, only in his case, that would mean Dawn, Willow, Xander, and Giles, and he knew full well that he could live on readily obtainable animal blood.

Even without a soul or the restraint of the chip, Spike would know that he would lose more by succumbing to his natural instincts than he could possible gain. In other words,Dawn's friendship and trust would, undoubtedly, mean more o him than a good meal.

 

[ladydorotea]

Maybe you missed the part further down in my post where I said that Angel, WITH a soul, still killed and fed on humans, though he apparently only fed on murderers, rapists, and others of hat ilk.

Blink. And what this has to do with soulless Spike being a good man dispute ?

also said that I believed that the chances were quite good that Spike would resist the temptation to do that, simply on the grounds that Dawn would disapprove.

And I firmly believe that Dawn's feelings in the matter would mean more to him than the temptation of a meal of sweet, fresh, teenaged girl blood. By that time, Spike was quite accustomed to feeding on pig's blood.

Blink again. Dawn strongly disapproved of him attempting to rape her elder sister. Thinking that this might potentially happen did not stop him in that bathroom. And that was a momentous spell of lust while still under chip control. Him with no chip and no other inhibition than potential disapproval of a young girl - with whom he never had a conversation btw after she promised to set him on fire - vs his insatiable appetite for violence and sex ? You gotta be kidding me.

After regaining his soul, Angel continued to feed on humans, I think, primarily because Darla, Dru, and Spike did, and expected him to do the same.

There is no evidence he 'continued to feed on humans' when Darla was not watching closely. So, he 'continued to feed on humans' for exactly three or two days during the Boxer Rebellion while trying to impress her and by picking murderers and rapists. Then he fed on an already dead man once and almost killed himself with remorse afterwards.
That does not make him a 'good man' btw. He did not become a good man until Whistler found him. But all of that aside - and once again - this is irrelevant to the discussion at hand because we were discussing Soulless Spike being a good man not Angel/Angelus.

Plus, apparently, it never occurred to him that he could get animal blood from most butcher shops until Whistler told him that he could. From that, I would guess that a combination of peer pressure and ignorance were the primary reasons for Angel doing what he dis.

Blink. Angel was feeding on live rats not live humans when Whistler told him he could get animal blood from butcher shops... But that again does not make him a 'good man'.

Even without a soul, Spike would still resist feeding on humans out of a sense of honor.

That is utterly and entirely your fantasy. The moment Spike thought his chip malfunctioned - he tried to grab a girl off the street. Period.

by which I mean that he knew that he would not be able to fulfill his promise to take care of Dawn if he started killing again. The Scoobies wouldn't let him near her.

And that would bother him for about two seconds in S6. We have been through that. You arguments are not holding water.

So, just like with Angel, Spike's dietary habits would be dictated by peer pressure, only in his case, that would mean Dawn, Willow, Xander, and Giles, and he knew full well that he could live on readily obtainable animal blood.

Angel spent about two days 'under peer pressure' then when Darla tried to force him to eat a baby he jumped through the window... instead of continuing to be under it. And that still does not make him a good man btw.

Even without a soul or the restraint of the chip, Spike would know that he would lose more by succumbing to his natural instincts than he could possible gain. In other words,Dawn's friendship and trust would, undoubtedly, mean more o him than a good meal.

Utterly and completely ass-pulled - see my reasoning above about him cherishing Dawns friendship after she promised to set him on fire - he had a soul then, and he avoided Dawn and never spoke to her , meaning his ruined ego was more important. Spike took care of Dawn whilst it suited him - either to impress Buffy, or to continue to get free blood packs from the Scoobies while being still chipped. remove the chip - and you have most likely have him back on the streets hunting in days. And maybe eating Dawn too - in months. Dru loved her little pets - none of them survived too long.

 

[EffyStonem]

After regaining his soul, Angel continued to feed on humans, I think, primarily because Darla, Dru, and Spike did, and expected him to do the same.

I don't think it is fair to compare what Angel did after being re-ensouled with what Spike did (or didn't do) because the circumstances were vastly different.

When Angel was re-ensouled there had never been another case of a vampire with a soul. He was utterly and completely alone with no one to turn to and no one to help him through his transition. It makes complete sense that he would end up trying to return to Darla, she is his constant. In his confused and guilt-ridden state he made an unwise decision. Plus keep in mind he avoided feeding on innocents, going after rapists and murderers instead. This doesn't excuse him nor does it make it better but it is something to consider.

Spike, on the other hand, not only had the chip to still keep him in control, he had Buffy there to help him. He had someone believing in him and trying to help him become a better man. Even after Sunnydale he had people trying to help him (Fred and Angel himself). His transition was much, much smoother and easier to bear than Angel's because Spike was never alone in his struggle.

 

[Robb Stark]

That is utterly and entirely your fantasy. The moment Spike thought his chip malfunctioned - he tried to grab a girl off the street. Period.

This is a pretty rock solid example of what I was saying earlier. When did this happen? I should have quoted a line you put later on, but I don't think Spike would have fed on Dawn, even with Buffy dead.

 

[white avenger]

By Season 7, had the soulless monster evolved into a man who sincerely wanted to be what Buffy saw him as being, someone who risked everything to actually become a better man? This isn't an analysis or judgement of why he would want to do such a thing, merely, do you actually believe that he was really trying to be a better man, regardless of his purposes in doing so.

I just thought that I would re-post this, since several of us (myself included) seem to have forgotten that we are supposed to be discussing Season 7 Spike, in possession of a bright, shiny new soul, not Seasons 4, 5, or 6. Spike. The one who, in Buffy's words, "risked everything to become a better man." Was Buffy wrong in her assessment of what Spike had become?

 

[EffyStonem]

I just thought that I would re-post this, since several of us (myself included) seem to have forgotten that we are supposed to be discussing Season 7 Spike, in possession of a bright, shiny new soul, not Seasons 4, 5, or 6. Spike. The one who, in Buffy's words, "risked everything to become a better man." Was Buffy wrong in her assessment of what Spike had become?

No, she wasn't wrong about what he had become (or rather, what he was on his way to becoming). Spike was evolving and changing over Season 7 and even moreso during Season 5 of Angel.

However she was wrong in her statement "You risked everything to be a better man." Spike did not seek his soul to become a better man. He sought his soul to win Buffy back after brutally attacking her. It was emotional manipulation at its' finest and what's worse is that Buffy falls for it.

I'm not disputing the fact that once he had the soul Spike became a better man, because he did. However he sought his soul for all the wrong reasons, but really what else should we expect from a soulless vampire?

 

[Gum Gnome33]

No, she wasn't wrong about what he had become (or rather, what he was on his way to becoming). Spike was evolving and changing over Season 7 and even moreso during Season 5 of Angel.

Agree.

However she was wrong in her statement "You risked everything to be a better man." Spike did not seek his soul to become a better man. He sought his soul to win Buffy back after brutally attacking her. It was emotional manipulation at its' finest and what's worse is that Buffy falls for it...I'm not disputing the fact that once he had the soul Spike became a better man, because he did. However he sought his soul for all the wrong reasons, but really what else should we expect from a soulless vampire?

I believe that Spike didn't seek his soul for the greater good. And yes, of course it was selfish of him to do it in order to be with her. In order to win her forgiveness. It's always selfish for a person to make any sort of grand gesture to win over another person, and it's always selfish for a person to seek forgiveness. But I just don't see at all how that selfishness is inherently "bad."

Of course what he did was deplorable. I'm not saying that Buffy should have felt pressure to forgive him because of it, don't misundertand. And while he might have thought, while getting the soul, that doing so would make her feel compelled to be with him, it's clear to me that he didn't feel that way when he came back to Sunnydale.

When he returns, in "Beneath You," he tells Buffy that in fact he got his soul in order to ensure that he'd never hurt her again, which is very different from wanting to be with her. He makes it clear that he came to town to help, and he knows they're not "best friends" anymore.
Notice that not once after he returns does he expect anything physical from her, (they lie together in "Touched" because Buffy asks him to hold her and he obliges, and in "Chosen" because Buffy asks to share the cot with him.)

So actually the motivation for getting the soul changes based on his own perspective. Upon getting the soul, while still soulless, the motivation is primarily self serving, (again, selfish and evil are not synonymous--it just happens that a soulless being will not do very much that isn't selfish at the core). Whereas with perspective, Spike insists that he did it to ensure that he would "be the kind of man who never(hurt her again.)" To be a man.

I don't think this incongruence makes the sentiment disingenuous; as he says, having a soul changes his own self awareness so if anything it is to be expected.

So when Buffy says "you risked everything to be a better man," it's true. He risked everything to be a man she'd want to be with. But perhaps the more accurate phrasing is more like, "you risked everything to get your soul, and now that you have it, you can be a better man."

I think, (I hope?) that's a phrasing that a lot more of us can get on board with...

 

[EffyStonem]

So when Buffy says "you risked everything to be a better man," it's true. He risked everything to be a man she'd want to be with. But perhaps the more accurate phrasing is more like, "you risked everything to get your soul, and now that you have it, you can be a better man."

I think, (I hope?) that's a phrasing that a lot more of us can get on board with...

I like that phrasing and now I wish that were the actual line. I could get on board with that.

I will never be comfortable with the circumstances surrounding Spike seeking his soul. I can deal with souled Spike gaining new perspective but that doesn't change the initial reason he sought his soul and I wish they had had Buffy recognise that.

 

[zobothehobo]

I don't believe that Spike truly evolved without the soul. I think he stayed true to who he is but with the presence of the chip viewers were tricked into thinking he changed and grew when in reality he was simply confined. Some points to consider:

1. Spike has always retained some humanity
This has been commented on by several other characters over the course of the show. Note that Spike is not the only vampire to ever retain their humanity (or at least some semblance of it) however he is the most notable case.

Without a chip or a soul it is easy to dismiss Spike's humanity, to overlook it. Once the chip has been shoved into his brain, his humanity becomes more apparent now that the violence and impulses that go with violence are forced to stop, making it appear that he has changed.

2. Spike has always and will always protect and comfort the ones he loves
This is a big part of Spike's personality, as a human and as a demon. He will always try to do what he thinks is right by the ones he loves (even if it actually isn't). Again, Spike is not unique because he can love without a soul (we have seen other vampires and demons who love) but he is unique in that he does tend to love a little more selflessly than other demons "“ I stress a little, because Spike's love can be incredibly selfish at times.

We see him turn his mother because he wants to cure her. We see him protect and love Drusilla with an affection and devotion that is actually quite touching.

This then means that he will protect Buffy, Dawn and Joyce (three people he cares about) and by extension, The Scoobies. Note that he never seems to care nor take notice when The Scoobies are injured (Tara's mind sucking, Giles getting speared etc.) but he will help protect them because he loves Buffy. This is not growth as it completely fits in with Spike's character and who he is as a person. Yet, once again because of the chip it is far more noticeable.

3. Spike is not a sadist
Spike revels in violence, in heat-of-the-moment fights. He enjoys chaos and anarchy and delights in causing mayhem. Without the soul he has no conscience and therefore feels no guilt for his crimes, however he has never, souled or non-souled, chip or no chip, revelled in the pain, anguish and downfall of others the way Angelus, Darla and even Drusilla do. He is not an evil mastermind nor does he ever seem to enjoy big master plans (The Judge was Dru's doing, Acathla was Angelus's, Spike just happened to be there for the ride).

This means that once the chip is activated his main desire, his main pleasure in life "“ the violence and mayhem "“ is taken from him. Spike is a creature of violence. Take that away and other aspects of his personality start to come through clearer and make it look as though he is evolving. This is a big part of why he fights alongside the Scoobies. Going after demons gives him an outlet for his violent urges and after awhile fighting with the Scoobies seems to just become routine. He has had to adjust to a new way of life and so he does but this does not mean that he has evolved.

Well, that's my two-cents, anyway. Additionally, this is all without a soul. Once he's re-ensouled there is quite a lot of growth for Spike, especially once he moves to AtS.

My initial reaction to this post was "so what?" And I couldn't quite figure out why this was so "so what" to me. So I decided to read what Gum Gnome had to say... and while I agree with what she said, there's more to it for me. It's not just "his situation changed, which proves he changed" it's personality doesn't have to change for a character to grow and evolve. Sometimes, often times, the biggest growth is accepting your personality. Spike's growth didn't come from changing his personality and becoming someone else. It came from accepting who he is. Spike is a lover. He always has been a lover, but he didn't accept he was a lover until season 7. He had a journey into it. After the bathroom scene (well I would argue at the end of the scene after Buffy kicks him off of her), he realizes he's just done something anti-lover like. And he realized he didn't know how to love Buffy in that moment. Then, while talking to Clem, he makes the decision to be a lover. To accept his heart and love Buffy. To try to become the man she deserves, because he loves her. That is evolution.

And this isn't just in fiction. My big bouts of personal growth mainly came from learning who I am and accepting who I am rather than changing who I am. Actually, whenever I've thought of personal growth as changing who I am is when I've grown the least. Because I'm too preoccupied on being someone else I forget that I'm supposed to grow within myself. That's the whole idea. This is how personal growth works. You learn who you are and accept yourself.

Also, I can't see how explaining how Spike's loving personality didn't change from beginning to end explains how you don't like him. I've used this same argument countless times against Spike haters who claim Spike changed and became a love sick puppy. Because the truth is Spike didn't change. He was always a lover. But how on Earth that could back up an anti-Spike position, I'm at a loss.


So I'm failing to see what the point was in your post. Are you arguing that personal growth comes from outwardly changing your personality? or are you arguing that Spike being a lover throughout the show is a negative trait? I'm terribly confused.