What is the most 'evil' thing that Angel does?

[gite63]

It's been a long time since I read Season 8, but isn't the point that Angel was willingly cooperating with Twilight, whereas no one else actually knew anything about it? As for the Buffy/Angel dance, can we really say that Buffy was thinking clearly at that particular time? She knows full well that giving Angel a happy ALWAYS ends badly, and she goes at him like a sailor after a long cruise. She had to be under the influence of something a whole lot more powerful than just Slayer hormones.

Angel made a deal with the devil, and a lot of people died because of it. Trying to excuse that fact by saying that he killed thousands to save billions, whatever the actual final count might have been, is, to me at least, just plain whitewash. He doesn't get the same consideration that Spike did in Season 7, because none of what Spike did under the First Evil's influence was done with either his permission, knowledge, or cooperation. Angel knew exactly what he was doing, plus, he knew that Buffy, if she had had any say in the matter, would have almost certainly told Twilight to go french kiss a king cobra. That puts the whole blame on Angel, in my book.

It was soooo whitewashed that people are saying, now in 2016, that what Angel did wasn't *that* horrible or even wrong, while back in 2008 it was something shocking and upseting.

 

[ChaseRules]

Angel knew exactly what he was doing, plus, he knew that Buffy, if she had had any say in the matter, would have almost certainly told Twilight to go french kiss a king cobra. That puts the whole blame on Angel, in my book.

That exactly what I mean. He made a deal with the devil just so he could get Buffy back . The ends never justify the means. That just lying to yourself &
that what Angel did willing .

The global mind wash is similar and would be a close second but I can give him at least a hair of credit that he still was doing it with good intentions for Connor. Twilight was evil actions with evil intentions. I think he did it to get Buffy back and the manipulation had no redeeming qualities.

I agreed that the mind wash was similar but he did it for Connor & nobody else was hurt beside being mind washed but Twilight was killing people for no other reason to get her back . You would have thought Angel would have been suspicious but he wanted what they told him so he didn't care about anything else .

 

[white avenger]

(Angel) made a deal with the devil just so he could get Buffy back . The ends never justify the means. That just lying to yourself &
that what Angel did willing .

Also, his "act of atonement" the next Season was bringing Giles back. What about the other thousands of people who lost their lives due to his actions? How was Giles any more deserving of life than any of them? I can't see where Angel's actions, in Season 8, were little, if any, different from Caleb's in Season 7, with the single exception that Angel is supposed to be one of Buffy's main love interests.

 

[ChaseRules]

Key world there was "supposed to be " . If you ask me bringing Giles back to life was wasn't a act of atonement as much as a way
of doing something for Buffy plain & simple .

 

[thetopher]

It's been a long time since I read Season 8, but isn't the point that Angel was willingly cooperating with Twilight, whereas no one else actually knew anything about it? As for the Buffy/Angel dance, can we really say that Buffy was thinking clearly at that particular time? She knows full well that giving Angel a happy ALWAYS ends badly, and she goes at him like a sailor after a long cruise. She had to be under the influence of something a whole lot more powerful than just Slayer hormones.

Buffy made a choice. Under the influence sure, but she made that choice for reasons that had been made clear throughout the season. She was surrounded by slayers, isolated by her position as leader, and incredibly lonely freaked.

So when Angel comes along saying that 'hey, you don't have to be alone anymore, there is a plan for us, the greatest sex of your life with me and we get to ascend together' (or whatever) and Buffy basically goes 'okay'. Was she ignorant? Sure, but ignorance is no excuse when the guy you decide to boink has been the mastermind of a years worth of misery for you and yours, hunting you, your allies and your trusted followers relentluessly across the planet.
Buffy knew this, all of it, and still she did what she did and then changed her mind later.
I mean, she still felt awesome for sleeping with Angel and told him as much afterwards even as the world was going to hell and Spike was cruising in his bug-ship. I mean, wtf?
Buffy betrayed her principals and herself in a moment of madness and spends the next season going 'oh well I had to destroy the seed to save the world', it barely gets mentioned how the world got in that state to begin with and Buffy faces zero consequences for her decidedly crazy actions.
Whitewash. Especially when the people who are critical of her S8 actions- Willow at the start of the season and Xander at the end- are contrived to apologise for abandoning Buffy or not trusting her enough.
Definitely whitewash.

Angel made a deal with the devil, and a lot of people died because of it. Trying to excuse that fact by saying that he killed thousands to save billions, whatever the actual final count might have been, is, to me at least, just plain whitewash.

I guess a define whitewash as lack of consequences/references to past horrors and I don't see that with Angel. A&F Season 9 is about him trying- in some small way- to make things right by resurrecting Giles from death (at risk of life and sanity), stopping Whistler and his minions from 'evolving/destroying' the world, and having Faith call him a ninny a few times. Plus more pain and guilt and self-doubt. Same old I guess.

But say Spike in S7- he kills people, snaps out of it when he tastes Buffy's blood, and a couple of episodes later (after a brief stint of torture) nobody ever mentions it ever again, sorry people who were brutally murdered, sucks to be you. *shrug*
Same with Andrews actions the year before. He's sorry for murdering Jonathan, but not for cheering as Warren tried to beat Buffy to death, trying to frame her for murder or drive her crazy with a demon. Forgotten about and never mentioned again. That is a whitewash imo.

 

[ChaseRules]

I think we forgetting what we talking about here . What Angel did as Twilight was evil plan & simple .
Sure what Buffy did was wrong but that a whole lot different than Angel doing all he could not caring what happened
to get there . So Angel comes out a whole lot worse than Buffy in my opition.

 

[gite63]

Spike hasn't killed anyone on his own volition after he won his soul back; when he did, he was controlled by the First Evil.

Not like Angel who accepted to play Twilight, or Faith, who killed (among others) an innocent old man in cold blood. Cry after the fact and say you are so sorry about it (without wanting to pay for it, like, let's say, stay in prison for the whole sentence), don't make any difference for the "sorry people who were brutally murdered".

 

[ChaseRules]

At least Faith went to prison for what she did .......

 

[white avenger]

But say Spike in S7- he kills people, snaps out of it when he tastes Buffy's blood, and a couple of episodes later (after a brief stint of torture) nobody ever mentions it ever again, sorry people who were brutally murdered, sucks to be you. *shrug*

Not wanting to get into yet another drawn out debate about evil Spike in Season 7, but, as far as we know, he never voluntarily made a pact with the First Evil in order to get back in Buffy's good graces, let alone get the chance to play Adam to her Eve while virtually the rest of the human race either dies or falls under the domination of the current Big Bad. None of the deaths in Season 7 were the result of any conscious action of Spike's, and he had little or no memory of anything that he did while under the First Evil's control. Further, he begged Buffy to dust him once he did realize what had been happening, and volunteered to leave rather than be a further risk to Buffy or her friends.

Angel did what he always did, taking upon himself the authority to make decisions affecting others' lives without either consulting or even warning them what was about to happen. He did it when he left Sunnydale, when he erased his day of mortality, when he altered everyone's memories about Connor, when he provoked Wolfram & Hart into sending the whole city and surrounding area to hell, and once more, when he willingly made a bargain with an evil sentient universe to help destroy the world in order to eat Buffy's fresh baked cookies.

As for the risk that he took in restoring Giles to life, once more I have to ask, how does restoring one man out of thousands in any way excuse his actions as Twilight's willing, cooperative, and for the most part fully conscious minion? In fact, since it's generally accepted that Giles' death was one of the few times when Twilight was in total control of Angel, that was one of the few deaths that he had no direct responsibility for at all.

 

[ChaseRules]

In fact, since it's generally accepted that Giles' death was one of the few times when Twilight was in total control of Angel, that was one of the few deaths that he had no direct responsibility for at all.

Yes but you forgot he was trying to make it up to Buffy that the reason he did so . You think he would have done more than that but no.

gite63: No, she didn't; just for a little while, and then escaped and didn't go back to pay for her crimes .

But she went & the only reason she did escape was to help Buffy with the First Evil.

Angel killed thousands & he didn't get punished over that at all ? Big different there .

 

[white avenger]

But (Faith) went & the only reason she did escape was to help Buffy with the First Evil.

While I do agree with you about Faith being the only one to even try and answer for her crimes, she originally escaped to help Wes and the others handle Angelus. Until Willow showed up, she had no idea that Buffy was in any sort of difficulty. Whether she had originally planned to return to prison once the problems in L A were straightened out, is anyone's guess.

 

[gite63]

But she went & the only reason she did escape was to help Buffy with the First Evil.

But she didn't go back, did she? Life in Cleveland and London, and even fighting demons, are far better than life at a Californian prison, I'm sure. She is human, she killed humans, she had to pay by human Law. She herself said "Well, uh, I hate to wet the paper for you, Wes, but I'm kinda unavailable right now. Maybe you want to check back in a few decades when my parole comes up." How about just a couple of years?

Angel killed thousands & he didn't get punished over that at all ? Big different there .

BIG difference, I agree. Like there is a big difference between Twilight and Spike being controled by the First Evil. All the other things Angel did weren't evil; wrong sometimes (except maybe for "setting a bunch of violent gladiator demons free).

But she went & the only reason she did escape was to help Buffy with the First Evil.

No, she escaped to help Angel, the only person who loved and helped her and the only person she loved and would do anything to help. The second Wes mentioned him, she acted:

FAITH: It's Armageddon again. I dig. The last thing you need's me in the mix. Besides, Angel'll come shining through in the end like he always does.
WESLEY: Angel's gone, Faith. Angelus is back.
FAITH: Step away from the glass.

But I think we are getting way off topic...

 

[ChaseRules]

Agreed . We getting off topic . The other things Angel did were wrong or shadly but what he did as Twilight was just evil plain & simple .

 

[RomanticSoul]

Agreed . We getting off topic . The other things Angel did were wrong or shadly but what he did as Twilight was just evil plain & simple .

Honestly, who the hell cares what Angel did in 'fan fiction'? After all those are the words Joss once used for S8. Besides I don't put much stock into stories written by people who have never seen AtS. Good thing the Twlight thing isn't canon, it's crappy fan fic.

 

[ChaseRules]

I agree with you there . Good thing I wasn't really into Angel because if I did it would have hurt a lot more reading that.

 

[nightshade]

Yes let's keep this on topic

 

[thetopher]

Not wanting to get into yet another drawn out debate about evil Spike in Season 7, but, as far as we know, he never voluntarily made a pact with the First Evil in order to get back in Buffy's good graces, let alone get the chance to play Adam to her Eve while virtually the rest of the human race either dies or falls under the domination of the current Big Bad.

It's not about Spike being at fault, its about the aftermath of the event and the consequences. Spike has been and can still be controlled by the ultimate evil. But no-one cares, not even him.

Angel did what he always did

I disagree. You're listing events that- for the most part- were Angel's decisions to make about himself. Angel decides where he goes in life or what happens to his person, nobody else. He also asked others opinions about the W&H plan- he even gave them an out to his 'definitly going to die' plan.
The only thing that fits the pattern is mind-wiping to give Connor a new life- Angel deciding something for somebody else.

You can disagree with that in an effort to make Angel look bad all of the time, that's your choice.

Again, Angel made a choice without knowing all the consequences or costs. So did Buffy. She is not equally culpable but she should accept some blame in almost destroying the world. She doesn't.

As for the risk that he took in restoring Giles to life, once more I have to ask, how does restoring one man out of thousands in any way excuse his actions as Twilight's willing, cooperative, and for the most part fully conscious minion?

Of the top of my head Angel did way more than resurrrect Gile, since he stopped Whistler from trying to do the same exact thing Twilight!Angel tried for similar reasons- because it 'needed to happen' for the world to evolve. Angel stopped Eyghon, Whistler, Pearl & Nash and saved the world. Again.

Bringing Giles back was 1) just a handy bonus and 2) explained over and over again why this particular raising was possible and none of the others were.

 

[ChaseRules]

I still say what Angel did as Twilight was evil . He wanted Buffy back & he didn't seem to care what else happened .
He could have said no but he never did . What he did afterwards was just a effort to make up for what he did for a number of months.

 

[RomanticSoul]

I still say what Angel did as Twilight was evil . He wanted Buffy back & he didn't seem to care what else happened .
He could have said no but he never did . What he did afterwards was just a effort to make up for what he did for a number of months.

But again that works only if you accept the comics as canon. Multiple statements by the staff and the introduction of non-canon characters into this series says differently. On top of that the whole thing wasn't based on AtS!Angel but on BtVS!Angel. AtS as a whole was thrown under the train to pull this off, including all of Angel's character development. Hell Joss Whedon himself was in charge of Season 5, the same Season that he had Angel quitting being a pawn of higher powers and excercise his free will. The same Season where he had Angel say that he would even protect evil humans like Knox from a supernatural threat like Illyria. Yet in the comics he plays easy pawn for higher powers again and would let the evil humans rot on Earth while the good ones go to paradise? WTF!!!

 

[ChaseRules]

And that the reason I stopped reading them. It was a total train wreck. If i had first saw Angel in the comics I would have thought Angel was totally evil even though he not .