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Who Did Buffy Love More?

Mrs Gordo

Bangel extremist...
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Black Thorn
If y'all want to talk comics we can do that too (even if it is mostly fan fiction written by CG). In s8, Buffy calls Angel the love (present tense) of her life. While she voluntarily breaks up with Spike in s12 so she can't love him all that much (while I concede she did love him in the comics).
 
Ceadsearc03
Ceadsearc03
Agree, from what I’ve read of the comics, though I can’t bring myself to really call them canon.

HowiMetdaSlayer

Occasionally, I am callous and strange 🐶
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I'm going to throw this notion out on the stoop and see if the cat licks it up...
who did Buffy love more?
Willow - Not as a romantic love interest, but as her 'hetero life mate' to quote Kevin Smith.
Hear me out: Buffy traded the Box of Gavrok to save Willow. Don't just take my word for it...



OK, now back to yer regularly scheduled discussion...
:oops:
 

KatrinaL

"I'm not strong. I'm not an Amazon. I'm just me."
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Again this sort of question? We don't love in quantifiable amounts, we love in different ways. It's impossible to concretely say who, unless the person is at a point where she/he HAS to decide for one love over the other. Otherwise, we'll always compare apples against oranges. And unless, we assume all fruit is the same, the comparison is impossible.
 

r2dh2

Never go for the kill when you can go for the pain
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Again this sort of question? We don't love in quantifiable amounts, we love in different ways. It's impossible to concretely say who, unless the person is at a point where she/he HAS to decide for one love over the other. Otherwise, we'll always compare apples against oranges. And unless, we assume all fruit is the same, the comparison is impossible.
Buffy actually made a choice! She chose Spike over Angel. She was elated by seeing Angel but ultimately, she only thanked him for the talisman and the visit and then she asked him to leave. By this metric, she definitely sent a strong signal about loving Spike “more” than Angel in the moment where she was “forced” to make a decision.
 

Ethan Reigns

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Sineya
My wife had an interesting take on the question of "who do I love more" that she used with children that seemed to satisfy them. She said that the love for each person could be imagined to be in a pocket, like a pants pocket, and what is in one pocket is not really comparable to what is in another pocket nor are the contents of one pocket interchangeable with another. This tends to eliminate the "hit parade" mentality where lovers, friends and other relationships are ranked in order from most to least valuable. Each relationship will have different memories and a different "flavour" where different aspects of a relationship will become more important. The hit parade has completely ruined music, there is no reason to let it get a foothold anywhere else.
 
K
katmobile
Especially when you consider the shite that gets to No.1 and the gold that only makes No.2 - look up Vienna voted Favourite song of the 80s twice by Absolute 80s radio channel listeners got to No. 2 and kept off the top by a dumb novelty record.

r2dh2

Never go for the kill when you can go for the pain
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Again this sort of question? We don't love in quantifiable amounts, we love in different ways.
\Each relationship will have different memories and a different "flavour" where different aspects of a relationship will become more important.
I agree with both of you. But then again, using this metric, Buffy asked Angel to leave and she went back to Spike. For me, this is a decisive moment, she's force to choose because of the imminent danger that they are facing. And she choses Spike.
 

Ethan Reigns

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Sineya
I agree with both of you. But then again, using this metric, Buffy asked Angel to leave and she went back to Spike. For me, this is a decisive moment, she's force to choose because of the imminent danger that they are facing. And she choses Spike.
She chose Spike because she suspected he would not survive and wanted to preserve Angel by making him fall back to a "second front", just like the way she wanted Xander to get Dawn out of town so she would be preserved.
 
r2dh2
r2dh2
We’ll have to agree to disagree. There’s enough ambiguity to argue in either direction. I firmly believe that she chooses Spike over Angel because she loves him MORE than she loves Angel.

CHK DeWilSon

A BAngel fan. Always.
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Ok, I'm just going to give an honest opinion on my thoughts and feelings regarding this question. It is not my intention to offend anyone.

So I think it's obvious whom I'm going to say who Buffy loves/loved more romantically and that is Angel.

Buffy herself said it as shown by Mrs Gordo in the very first comment on here. This is a Buffy in her 20's who as far as I can see knows her own mind. If we are to believe that when Buffy told Spike she loves him a little while later as he 'dies' and it was confirmed by TPTB that she meant it, why is it being argued and dismissed about Buffy only when it comes to Angel?

And to really try to highlight that Buffy said LOVED about Angel in her speech to Xander as if it meant past and done when we know that they come together again in the comics. If Buffy's love for Angel is in the past and it is only just some young schoolgirl's feelings then why do they get involve AGAIN in the comics with Buffy as an adult and their deep feelings for one another consume them to the point they almost destroy the world?

I get Buffy and Angel not being a pairing that some don't like or enjoy however it just seem that it easier to have them fit the narrative of them being just a young/First love so that it can possible just mean that of course she will go onto love again and is over Angel.

But I am talking about what was shown on screen and even in some ways from the comics.
Again Buffy who has experience different relationships with men like Riley and Spike in particular STILL said it about Angel. Yes Buffy in her later years could meet a guy that ends up meaning the most to her but we haven't seen that yet. I can only talk about what has been on screen and I guess in the comics as well and my belief is that Angel is still the guy she loves the most out of any guy she has EVER been with.

And it's interesting that when talking about Buffy's love for Spike versus her love for Angel, it comes across as it being seen as being a different kind of love for them both but not that Buffy loves/loved Spike more than she loves/loved Angel. Which in my thought process is what I conclude as I would never believe that Buffy's feelings for Spike ever got to the point where they completely relinquish her love for Angel to the moment where she had truly moved on from him. Which I mean in that Buffy didn't have any lingering thoughts about there still being a possibility of her and Angel having a life together down the road. Not to say that it would work out in the end if they got the chance but that she would have wanted the chance to find out.

So Buffy definitely had certain other people in her life that she loved as deeply as Angel but differently because of the particular relationships she had with them like her mother, Dawn, Willow, Xander and Giles. But when it comes to romantic love and by the end of the show it was still Angel even if she was moving on with her life and was not with him in a romantic relationship.

Even with the comics and what I know about them I wouldn't feel any differently because Spuffy only happens when it is once again shown that BAngel has caused mayhem and destruction by getting together so they can't be together because of the cost to others and NOT because they don't want each other while Spuffy got together after this and found out that they didn't work and it ended.

In conclusion for me as it stands, Buffy LOVES/LOVED Angel more than she did with Spike.
 
R

redtent

Guest
She loved Angel when she was in high school. She loved Spike when she was 20 or so. Anyone who was in a serious relationship so early knows, that high school love rarely last, because you change as a person.
You change the way you love and what you love about your partner. It's not about who she loved more. Every relationship is different.
First she loved Angel, then Spike, but she's still a cookie dough.
 

DayDreamer27

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She loved Angel when she was in high school. She loved Spike when she was 20 or so. Anyone who was in a serious relationship so early knows, that high school love rarely last, because you change as a person.
You change the way you love and what you love about your partner. It's not about who she loved more. Every relationship is different.
First she loved Angel, then Spike, but she's still a cookie dough.
Rarely =/= never. Like some arguing you can't quantify love. I argue you can't put an age on it.
  1. My mother knew my father all her life, started dating him at 17. Married him at 18, and is still with him at 52.
  2. UFC fighter Rose Namajunas has a controversial relationship with her fiance Pat Barry due to the age difference & how young she was at the start. She met him at 14 (he was 30) she started dating him at 16, and is now engaged to him at 26.
  3. Last I heard my former best friend was engaged to her first & only love. They lost their virginity together at 19 or so.

There's plenty of examples like this. Now just because it hasn't happened to you, and I mean you generally not personally, doesn't mean it's nonexistent or unrealistic. Plenty of people have married their HS sweethearts & stayed with them.

When Buffy was in her 20's, she still admits her feelings for Angel as love. And as a young woman, she'd know. She's never said "Well Angel was just a silly HS thing." Even in her late 20's, she's still stuck on Angel.

Plus Angel is an immortal adult who'd been around for over 200 years. He didn't have too much changing to do. He's a baked cookie for the most part. lol Buffy is the growing & changing one, and her feelings for Angel still haven't -even heading toward 30. In the comics, she was jealous of Dawn hugging Angel and pulled her away from him.
 
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Ceadsearc03
Ceadsearc03
Agree. And also Buffy isn’t exactly just a regular person that regular rules can be applied to.

thetopher

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Buffy actually made a choice! She chose Spike over Angel.
But that doesn't necessarily mean that she loved Spike more, that's just your interpretation of her choice.
Buffy actually states that she can't risk Angel. Therefore she can risk Spike; so would Buffy risk the thing she loves above anything and can't afford to lose, ever?

We actually have the answer to this; one of Buffy's priorities was to send Xander away with Dawn because she didn't want to lose her sister, the one person we know she would sacrifice herself for because she's done it in the past.
Now, by your logic then that means that Buffy loved Dawn less than all those people she was standing to die with. But in fact its the opposite; she needed Dawn to live because of how much she cared about her.
You not not risk that which is most precious.
 

Spanky

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Or on the flip side, if you knew the world was ending you'd want to be with the one you loved and send the high school crush packing. And it just so happens that he is the better fighter too.
 

SunnydaleGlitz

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OK I'm gonna throw in my 2 cents, and it won't be popular. But I'd rather be honest than diplomatic anyway.
So in advance: feel free to totally dismiss my POV, it's not a big deal, just don't throw things at me! ;)💗

Regarding who Buffy loved more (romantically speaking):
-- I'm going with Angel through seasons 1-5. She was head over heels in love with him through all of those seasons.
-- S6 she is undecided on a lot of things, including whether she even loves herself.
-- For seasons 7-12, I'm going with Spike.

Having said that, we're all fans and most of what we're saying is conjecture projected onto a character.

To look at it in more "concrete" terms:
Hypothetically, if Buffy had to choose between Spike or Angel in seasons 1 to 5 - well, duh. I think we all know the answer to that.
If Buffy had to choose between Spike or Angel in seasons 7 to 12 - romantically speaking - I'd say Spike. 🤷‍♀️That's my honest opinion, feel free to disagree.

And here's me taking off in my private jet before anyone catches me! ✈ 🛩


.
 
Taake
Taake
Private jet! Now that’s cheating :p
r2dh2
r2dh2
Wise decision. I'm doing the same ;). Out of here!

Btvs fan

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Or on the flip side, if you knew the world was ending you'd want to be with the one you loved and send the high school crush packing. And it just so happens that he is the better fighter too.
Hard to say, in In the Dark Spike attacks Angel with a 2by4 and gets his arse kicked In Destiny Angel says Spike beat him for the first time ever. So on a win/loss ratio I'm guessing Angel has the edge
 

katmobile

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I'm going to throw this notion out on the stoop and see if the cat licks it up...

Willow - Not as a romantic love interest, but as her 'hetero life mate' to quote Kevin Smith.
Hear me out: Buffy traded the Box of Gavrok to save Willow. Don't just take my word for it...



OK, now back to yer regularly scheduled discussion...
:oops:
If you haven't already go and listen to the Still Pretty podcasts Billow is a love story it's a platonic one but it is a definite love story. I was listening to the BBC's take on Buffy in the 20th anniversary and they were talking about how Buffy didn't really herald the dawn of a new age of feminist super heroines and as they were talking it occured to me that what shows like Alias and Dark Angel lacked as that the showrunners created their own Buffy's but they didn't create Willows to share their journeys and have complimentary ones of their own and that for that reason Willow might be the most important person in the Buffyverse. After all it takes two women to pass a Bechmal test.
 
HowiMetdaSlayer
HowiMetdaSlayer
think only listened to the board podcast once, so definitely haven't

katmobile

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Rarely =/= never. Like some arguing you can't quantify love. I argue you can't put an age on it.
  1. My mother knew my father all her life, started dating him at 17. Married him at 18, and is still with him at 52.
  2. UFC fighter Rose Namajunas has a controversial relationship with her fiance Pat Barry due to the age difference & how young she was at the start. She met him at 14 (he was 30) she started dating him at 16, and is now engaged to him at 26.
  3. Last I heard my former best friend was engaged to her first & only love. They lost their virginity together at 19 or so.

There's plenty of examples like this. Now just because it hasn't happened to you, and I mean you generally not personally, doesn't mean it's nonexistent or unrealistic. Plenty of people have married their HS sweethearts & stayed with them.

When Buffy was in her 20's, she still admits her feelings for Angel as love. And as a young woman, she'd know. She's never said "Well Angel was just a silly HS thing." Even in her late 20's, she's still stuck on Angel.

Plus Angel is an immortal adult who'd been around for over 200 years. He didn't have too much changing to do. He's a baked cookie for the most part. lol Buffy is the growing & changing one, and her feelings for Angel still haven't -even heading toward 30. In the comics, she was jealous of Dawn hugging Angel and pulled her away from him.
I'm not disputing that but plenty don't and I think that's probably the vast majority as factor real life equivalents of Bangels problems and an age gap.
 

DayDreamer27

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I'm not disputing that but plenty don't and I think that's probably the vast majority as factor real life equivalents of Bangels problems and an age gap.
A lot of people don't wait for marriage to have sex, but doesn't mean it isn't can't be done by some. So point still stands just because Buffy was a teen doesn't mean it wasn't real & didn't last. As the real life examples some have for it lasting.

If we play the age card, Spuffy is no better. Early 20's is still seen as young & stupid aged as well.

But Buffy was an adult who was raising a sibling, caring for a house, had been dead, in an abusive relationship, etc. She eas plenty adult & experienced & still professes to love Angel.

So again, the age argument doesn't hold up. Because Bangel was not written as the frivolous HS puppy love many are automatically writing it off as. A better example of that kind of relationship was Xander & Cordelia.
 

vampmogs

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I agree with others who've said that love can't be quantified so I'd be hesitant to say who Buffy loved "more."

Whilst I don't think Buffy ever lost her capacity to love I certainly think she loved Angel more openly. That's actually largely in part because what happened in Season 2 with Bangel (Joss has said that Buffy was "never really the same after Angel turned on her") but I think Angel was the only one she allowed herself to be openly in love with. A lot of people boil it down to teenage infatuation but I honestly think it has far less to do with age and more to do with Buffy's abandonment complex which just grows throughout the series ("Open your heart up to someone and he bails on you. Maybe it's just better not to let anyone in") The ironic thing about Bangel is that not only was it the only relationship Buffy fully gave herself to without hesitation (at least early on) but it was the relationship that left her permanently scared (the scar on her neck is symbolic) in the first place.

I think up until "Selfless", at least, Buffy very much considers Angel to be 'The One' that got away. There's an interesting moment in the shooting script for "All the Way" where at Xander and Anya's engagement party Anya talks about finding the "one person in all dimensions you're meant to be with" and "how often does the universe allow that to happen" and the script says that Anya's words hit Buffy "right in the Angel parallel." So midway through Season 6 Buffy still thought of Angel as the one guy "she was meant to be with." Then, as others have quoted, in "Selfless", she states she "loved him more than she would ever love anything in this life" which further suggests that she doesn't expect to love anyone as much as she loved Angel. As Spuffy progresses quite substantially throughout the remainder of Season 7 it's very arguable that Buffy's feelings on this may have now changed but whilst I do not think she chose Angel in "Chosen", I do find it quite telling that Buffy tells Angel "I do sometimes think that far ahead", implying she sometimes thinks of a future with him. I think Buffy has always thought of Angel as the one guy she probably belonged with and that she was able to maintain thinking of him that way because they broke up on the basis that they couldn't be together rather than no longer wanted to be together.

I think she 100% unequivocally loved Spike in Season 7. Whether or not she was in love with him is something I change my mind about almost every time I have rewatched it. Whatever she felt for him was certainly more than platonic (she didn't sleep in the same bed as Xander or Willow, after all) but there's certainly moments in "End of Days" and "Chosen" in particular where I think Buffy's making it abundantly clear that she's not interested in pursuing a committed relationship with Spike after the apocalypse (should they survive). Her "does it have to mean something?" after their night together in "Touched" was kind of brutal, to be honest. Not that I think she was stating the night meant nothing to her but she effectively shot down the idea that it had to lead to something more and then she follows this on in "Chosen" with the cookie dough speech about wanting to find herself. And I really go back and forth on SMG's acting in their final scene together in "Chosen." Some rewatches it comes across to me as she's being honest when she tells him she loves him and other times she doesn't sound convincing at all and their mutual look/silence after Spike says "No you don't but thanks for saying it" kind of comes across as if there's a mutual understanding between them (ie I appreciate that you said and you did it out of love for me but it's fine that you don't mean it and we're at peace with that). These days the latter interpretation is the one I'm leaning towards but I've flip flopped on this so many damn times it could change by next week.

I'm afraid I don't consider the comics canon anymore so I don't let whatever happened in them influence my opinion much at all.

One thing I will say about both Bangel and Spuffy is that whilst I certainly enjoy them for what they are (I slightly prefer Bangel purely on the basis that I think the Angelus arc is unrivalled) I do really resent that in both Season 3 and Season 7 that Buffy is forced to pretty much coddle and nurture both Angel and Spike out of some misplaced guilt over what they're going through whereas her pain and what they put her through (in Season 2 and Season 6) is put on the back burner. It's screwed up and really aggravating.
 
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Ceadsearc03
Ceadsearc03
This is a really good take.

Ceadsearc03

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Buffy actually made a choice! She chose Spike over Angel. She was elated by seeing Angel but ultimately, she only thanked him for the talisman and the visit and then she asked him to leave. By this metric, she definitely sent a strong signal about loving Spike “more” than Angel in the moment where she was “forced” to make a decision.
How did she choose Spike over Angel? She clearly told Angel she saw her future with him and that she couldn’t risk his life, and then risked Spike. And when Spike told her he knew she didn’t love him, she didn’t even dispute it.

Sending Angel away was hardly putting him second. He had the resources to run a second front. Spike didn’t.
 
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