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Who Did Buffy Love More?

Btvs fan

Scooby
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SpuffyGlitz, I think the reality is that there's always going to be ambiguity and debate about whether Buffy really loved Spike because Whedon purposely left it open to interpretation. He knew exactly what he was doing when he wrote their finale scene ("I love you" "No you don't but thanks for saying it") and knowingly left it open-ended. Just as he purposely left their final night together as ambiguous when it faded to black (he talks in the DVD commentary how if you want to believe they fought you could or if you wanted to believe they made love that's fine too - pretty much two polar opposite ideas). Ultimately, I think it boils down to the fact that, as he says in the "Chosen" DVD commentary, after the AR he didn't feel comfortable showing Buffy & Spike being intimate on screen again. He said he felt it'd be "irresponsible." Which, IMO, as far as the televised seasons go, it meant he'd never really commit to Spuffy again. He wanted to have his cake and eat it too by exploring Spuffy as this "grown up and romantic and confusing relationship" but he either didn't having the guts or genuinely felt too guilty or uncomfortable about ever actually showing it. That just wasn't going to be sustainable in the long run.

Luckily for them, the series only lasted one more season anyway so they could get away with skirting around it. But had the series continued in televised form it just wouldn't have worked. They had seriously underestimated the impact the AR would have and backed themselves into a corner.

I actually feel sorry for Spuffy fans in that respect. And I don't mean that in a patronising or condescending way, I just mean that for Spuffy fans actually wanting the same kind of committal that other ships had, they were never really going to get it. Whedon was always going to tip his hat to them whilst simultaneously tipping his hat to all the people outraged that Spuffy was even still a thing in any form. I do understand that there's some Spuffy shippers who genuinely enjoy or even prefer the ambiguity of their relationship but it does also mean you're always going to have a significant portion of fans who will interpret things very differently and Whedon wrote them in such a way that it was very much intended to be ambiguous.
But it didn't just end there.
Whedon us still doing the same thing even in Buffy S12. He breaks Souffy up off screen and it's left ambiguous for both sets of fans and open to interpretation.
Hell Spike doesn't even show up until the very back end of S8 and that's only to provide Buffy some exposition and some transportation to the final fight scene.

@SunnydaleGlitz
Can you think of an in universe reason why Spike doesn't go back to her in AtsS5 but instead decides to have sex with Harmony or why Buffy doesn't seem to care about either him or Angel in That Girl In Question 🤷‍♂️
I know JW retconned that in the comics
 

SunnydaleGlitz

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@SunnydaleGlitz
Can you think of an in universe reason why Spike doesn't go back to her in AtsS5 but instead decides to have sex with Harmony or why Buffy doesn't seem to care about either him or Angel in That Girl In Question 🤷‍♂️
I know JW retconned that in the comics
I mean, I have difficulty accepting some of the character inconsistencies that come up post-Chosen but I'd probably be able to answer you better when I watch Season 5 chronologically. I've seen some episodes here and there - or parts of them. I'm attempting to watch the whole of AtS chronologically. I had watched "City Of..." a while back and really liked it but I agree there are aspects of S5 that seem pretty implausible to me, but I'll try and give it a fair viewing when I watch it in order.

I can attempt in-verse explanations though...
a) Spike doesn't go back to her because his confidence was shaken at first discovering he's incorporeal, hanging around Angel - who was the source of romantic jealousy/rivalry from before - and then increasingly during the time apart from Buffy he's unsure of his own identity and needs to figure himself out before he feels confident enough to face Buffy. Plus - he's probably insecure about where he stands with Buffy as he begins doubting himself.
b) Sex with Harmony isn't especially consistent with his post-soul persona to me but then again - he's only *just* newly gained his soul so he's a bit of a mess. Harmony is someone he has a history of "using", and at finding out that he's newly corporeal again he resorts to that same pattern from before. 🤷‍♀️But yeah, there's a bunch of moments scattered through S5 that just have me face-palming. 🤦‍♀️
c) Buffy being with the Immortal and blowing off both Spike and Angel is not something, thankfully, I have to find an "in verse" explanation for because that wasn't her. That was a stand-in decoy. So there's that, thankfully.

d) You don't mention this but I find it aggravating - Angel describes Buffy as having "blue eyes" in The Girl in Question 🤦‍♀️Another massive face palm moment for me. He specifically says: "A girl, American, blonde hair, blue eyes." I don't even ship Buffy and Angel at this point but that just bugs me. Spike doesn't even correct him - you would think he'd jump at the opportunity to correct his rival. It's just bizarre to me that the two vamps who've been the main romantic interests in Buffy's life would mistake her effin eye colour for blue when it's hazel green! What were the writers thinking? Was this a deliberate gaffe? Was it a dig at SMG? Even I can't find an in verse rationale for that.

I chalk it down to Angel saying it just to get a rise out of Spike (because obviously Angel would know and remember her eye colour!) and Spike not rising to the bait. It's weak but...I can't think of anything else.
 
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Btvs fan

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I mean, I have difficulty accepting some of the character inconsistencies that come up post-Chosen but I'd probably be able to answer you better when I watch Season 5 chronologically. I've seen some episodes here and there - or parts of them. I'm attempting to watch the whole of AtS chronologically. I had watched "City Of..." a while back and liked it but I agree there are aspects of S5 that seem pretty implausible to me, but I'll try and give it a fair viewing when I watch it in order.

I can attempt in-verse explanations though...
a) Spike doesn't go back to her because his confidence was shaken at first discovering he's incorporeal, hanging around Angel - who was the source of romantic jealousy/rivalry from before - and then increasingly during the time apart from Buffy he's unsure of his own identity and needs to figure himself out before he feels confident enough to face Buffy. Plus - he's probably insecure about where he stands with Buffy as he begins doubting himself.
b) Sex with Harmony isn't especially consistent with his post-soul persona to me but then again - he's only *just* newly gained his soul so he's a bit of a mess. Harmony is someone he has a history of "using", and at finding out that he's newly corporeal again he resorts to that same pattern from before. 🤷‍♀️But yeah, there's a bunch of moments scattered through S5 that just have me face-palming. 🤦‍♀️
c) Buffy being with the Immortal and blowing off both Spike and Angel is not something, thankfully, I have to find an "in verse" explanation for because that wasn't her. That was a stand-in decoy. So there's that, thankfully.

d) You don't mention this but I find it aggravating - Angel describes Buffy as having "blue eyes" in The Girl in Question 🤦‍♀️Another massive face palm moment for me. He specifically says: "A girl, American, blonde hair, blue eyes." I don't even ship Buffy and Angel at this point but that just bugs me. Spike doesn't even correct him - you would think he'd jump at the opportunity to correct his rival. It's just bizarre to me that the two vamps who've been the main romantic interests in Buffy's life would mistake her effin eye colour for blue when it's hazel green! What were the writers thinking? Was this a deliberate gaffe? Even I can't find an in verse rationale for that.

I chalk it down to Angel saying it just to get a rise out of Spike (because obviously Angel would know and remember her eye colour!) and Spike not rising to the bait. It's weak but...I can't think of anything else.
TGIQ was retconned in the comics (and frankly it makes them look even bigger losers running after a fake Buffy) by Joss but many people haven't read the comics and Joss himself said he wouldn't have a problem retconning them either.
 
SunnydaleGlitz
SunnydaleGlitz
Retconning the comics you mean?

thetopher

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I have to say that 'Buffy' in 'The Girl In Question' does not seem particularly out of character, since this ep is set almost a year after 'Chosen'.
Buffy moves on. She has done in the past. She moved on to Scott Hope after dealing with sending Angel to hell. She moved on to Parker and Riley after the heartbreak of S3. I see no reason why she would stop doing this, especially after her healthy realizations at the end of S7. That actually she isn't the problem when it comes to love.

The episode is mostly poking fun at Angel and Spike and their personas, their inability/unwillingness to move on from Buffy (although at least Angel tries) and mocking their (kinda crappy) rivalry over Buffy.
Honestly they both come across as bad as each other. I suppose that's why many hate it for being 'out of character' or whatever, depending on who you prefer.
 
SunnydaleGlitz
SunnydaleGlitz
Agreed, I don't even mind Buffy appearing to have moved on - but the eye colour gaffe just bugs me. It makes the love for Buffy appear illusory if her actual eye colour is forgotten! Like - do they even remember the real Buffy?

Btvs fan

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TGIQ was retconned in the comics (and frankly it makes them look even bigger losers running after a fake Buffy) by Joss but many people haven't read the comics and Joss himself said he wouldn't have a problem retconning them either.
@SunnydaleGlitz Yes sorry, I meant retconning the comics

I have to say that 'Buffy' in 'The Girl In Question' does not seem particularly out of character, since this ep is set almost a year after 'Chosen'.
Buffy moves on. She has done in the past. She moved on to Scott Hope after dealing with sending Angel to hell. She moved on to Parker and Riley after the heartbreak of S3. I see no reason why she would stop doing this, especially after her healthy realizations at the end of S7. That actually she isn't the problem when it comes to love.

The episode is mostly poking fun at Angel and Spike and their personas, their inability/unwillingness to move on from Buffy (although at least Angel tries) and mocking their (kinda crappy) rivalry over Buffy.
Honestly they both come across as bad as each other. I suppose that's why many hate it for being 'out of character' or whatever, depending on who you prefer.
Its poking fun of Spike and Angel (Spike gets 10 of the same coat) but its also a passive aggressive attack on Buffy too. The implication being she hasn't moved on and is still attracted to an older guy with a dark past who may or may not be evil. Ou It was also a bit of an attack on SMG by JW who, at the time, was really pissed off she didn't come back for the 100th episode. "She's moved on maybe we should too"
 

SunnydaleGlitz

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It ruins the hotness of BOTH Bangel and Spuffy if you ask me. I don't mind having Angel and Spike running around after Buffy in Rome - fine - make it comedic if you must - I have no problems with that. But at least preserve the authenticity of their characterisations - or give an in-verse logical rationale for why they're behaving like that. Make them both drunk for the entirety of the episode - so that when they sober up they can at least feel embarrassed over their behaviour. That way, you can make fun of their inability to let go of Buffy while still preserving the integrity of their relationships with Buffy.
It's such broad slapstick humour it burns my eyes and fries my brain. *shudder* But I've come to now accept it for what it is I guess. I can sort of see the humour in it, I suppose.

But this is going off topic.
 

katmobile

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TGIQ was retconned in the comics (and frankly it makes them look even bigger losers running after a fake Buffy) by Joss but many people haven't read the comics and Joss himself said he wouldn't have a problem retconning them either.
Which is why I hate that episode and hate Joss's attitude to the comics.
 

DeadlyDuo

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You don't mention this but I find it aggravating - Angel describes Buffy as having "blue eyes" in The Girl in Question 🤦‍♀️Another massive face palm moment for me. He specifically says: "A girl, American, blonde hair, blue eyes." I don't even ship Buffy and Angel at this point but that just bugs me. Spike doesn't even correct him - you would think he'd jump at the opportunity to correct his rival. It's just bizarre to me that the two vamps who've been the main romantic interests in Buffy's life would mistake her effin eye colour for blue when it's hazel green! What were the writers thinking? Was this a deliberate gaffe? Was it a dig at SMG? Even I can't find an in verse rationale for that.
Joss always envisioned Buffy as "Barbie with Kung fu grip" hence the "American, blonde hair, blue eyes" description. They should've updated it to match SMG's eye colour rather than the original description of Buffy. However, considering they had a 14 year old Dawn eating ice cream like a moron and acting as a child much younger because they always originally envisioned Dawn as a younger child before MT was cast, describing Buffy as having blue eyes is less noticeable. Even a 4 year old can eat ice cream neater than Dawn did in that scene.
 

thetopher

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Its poking fun of Spike and Angel (Spike gets 10 of the same coat)
Spike gets treated/critiqued in this season like Angel is in most seasons; he's made to look pathetic, but he's also funny and gets awesome action-stuff as well. Personally I think AI treat him with more than any of the scoobs ever did.

The implication being she hasn't moved on and is still attracted to an older guy with a dark past who may or may not be evil.
But it's still entirely within Buffy's character to do this, move on. Also there's a nice bit commenting on how she does seem to like a project to work on. The main joke is on Spike and Angel since everybody (evil) goes on about how awesome this guy is in comparison to them; Darla and Dru, W&H, some random demon, etc
Worth pointing out that not just Buffy but Giles too doesn't come out of AtS 5 very well. And I don't particularly think that's out-of-character either.

I'm not defending the episode really, its still crappy to me. I have a feeling that the writers were going for a mingling of 'The Zeppo' and 'Triangle' type of episode; mad-cap broad comedy crossed with the 'B plot interfering with the more important A plot' type stuff.
 
B
Btvs fan
Well the B plot is predicated on the fact that no one informed Fred's Parents that there daughter was killed which is just disgusting
one eyed chicklet
one eyed chicklet
I agree with your point about Buffy, its nice (despite the fact that is not her) to see her having some fun that she hasn't really had for the last 3 seasons of Buffy.

Serenityrose

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JW: You know, like Angel, he's somebody we wanted to keep our mitts off of for a while. And, like Angel, he's incredibly important to Buffy. So do I have plans for Spike? I don't think anybody's going to gasp in horror when I say, "Yes

JW: I won't be using the ancillary characters from Angel [in Season 8 of Buffy] unless I absolutely think that nobody else can fit this bill. Spike and Angel I will definitely use, but sparingly. But I would do that anyway. You don't want to use it up by having Spike standing around in the background of every frame. He means so much to Buffy, so did Angel, that you want to save them for the big hits.

JW: I wanted to make definite statements about both relationships but I had to do it in the same episode. It was weird. I had a lot of structural juggling to do to figure out how to make sense of the two most important men in Buffy's life showing up at once.

I feel at the end of the day Joss opted to say these were the two most important romantic relationships in Buffy's life. She had deep connections with both of them and they both meant so much to her.

Now personally as a Spuffy fan, I always felt like Angel and Buffy had a significant connection when she was younger but so much time passed and they changed and evolved so much during their time away from eachother that they just don't know eachother on that same level. I feel like Spuffy do which made the connection deeper for me. But ultimately that's just my viewpoint and preference.
 
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katmobile

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SpikeRocks
Also, Buffy easily loved Joyce/Dawn more than anything in this life. Also, I believe no one is able to "love" again the way they can before their first devastating heartbreak, so in general it's a true statement. Doesn't mean endgame tho.
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