Who do you prefer: Willow, Tara, or Fred?

[Mr Trick]

Yes, Tara handled the addiction pretty well (although I still think she could have tried to check on Willow and help her a bit more. I'm convinced Oz and Kennedy would.) but I respect that Tara has boundaries and can stick up for herself. The problems are more in seasons 4 and 5 for me. Every time Willow does something it's wrong. Every opinion she has on magic, on how to treat Dawn. Tara whines about Willow not including her, and then when Willow tries to invite her out in Family she snaps at her (outside circumstances affecting her mood, I do understand). When Willow tries to be supportive about Spuffy in Intervention, Tara makes a rude remark and then when Tara is told by Buffy in season 6 she is the kind supportive one (to Buffy's face). She shoots down Willow when she brings up a possibility of bringing Joyce back, then goes along with bringing Buffy back, then when the sh#t hits the fan afterwards lets all the blame fall on Willow. Sorry but I just don't think it was a good relationship, and I certainly don't think it was all Willow's fault. Oz and Kennedy had a way of correcting Willow without acting like Willow wasn't fit to be with them.
 
And I do love the addiction arc

Think you have to remember that it got to the point where Willow could only help herself, and that having Tara around was maybe only going to hinder her progress. Its a different situation than when Oz put distance between himself and Willow after the Xander affair. And if you remember it was Oz who came back to Willow because he was missing her, and I assume because he felt that both were ready to try the relationship again, but I don't think he was checking up on her during the break.

I would have to rewatch those episodes to be fair. Besides, maybe if Tara does have those moments then that's a good thing, as in life no one is totally perfect all the time, and wouldn't it make for dull television if they were I have more of a problem with S4 Tara just think they go for too much of a stereotype, nervious, goth type, but I do put most of her issues down to confidence.

See I never felt Tara did that, but I guess if that's your reading of it then fine, but we just arn't going to agree on Kennedy She was terrible for Willow and I don't think ever cared for her.

 

[Monkey Pants]

but we just arn't going to agree on Kennedy She was terrible for Willow and I don't think ever cared for her

Haha I think Kennedy was awesome for Willow. She didn't care about magic which was really important for me because I was so sick of that being Willow's defining characteristic at that point, and pretty much the only thing her and Tara talked about. I always felt Willow had a subversive personality, shy and sweet on the outside and kinda edgy on the inside. Which is why I thought a rock musician and a badass fighter were perfect for her. To me Willow was kind of unshackled when she got with Kennedy. But I'm used to people disagreeing with me on that

 

[Mr Trick]

Haha I think Kennedy was awesome for Willow. She didn't care about magic which was really important for me because I was so sick of that being Willow's defining characteristic at that point, and pretty much the only thing her and Tara talked about. I always felt Willow had a subversive personality, shy and sweet on the outside and kinda edgy on the inside. Which is why I thought a rock musician and a badass fighter were perfect for her. To me Willow was kind of unshackled when she got with Kennedy. But I'm used to people disagreeing with me on that

But maybe it seemed like Magic was the only thing Willow and Tara talked about because of how Willow become addicted to it, so Tara had to confront her on it. I still maintain that Tara after S4 wasn't that bothered about the magic. Kennedy happened too soon after Tara, and for me was just a blander version of Faith. She was just rude, but in a boring way IMO.

 

[Monkey Pants]

But maybe it seemed like Magic was the only thing Willow and Tara talked about because of how Willow become addicted to it, so Tara had to confront her on it. I still maintain that Tara after S4 wasn't that bothered about the magic. Kennedy happened too soon after Tara, and for me was just a blander version of Faith. She was just rude, but in a boring way IMO.

Nah, Willow and Tara met and did magic together in season 4, talked about and did magic together in season 5, and talked about and did magic together in season 6. Which, yes, partly had to do with the addiction, but partly not. I'm Under Your Spell happened in OMWF right before Tara found about the mind wipe and how bad Willow really was, and her song is still all about magic. Hence the chorus "It's magic..." . Whereas Anya and Xander's couple song is more realistic, where they're actually talking about their relationship and they seem to know really things about each other. The only conversations I can remember between Willow and Tara that weren't about magic were about Japanese commercials and stories about kitty cats. Nothing really...real. It's like they were best friends in middle school or something. With Kennedy, Willow was ready to be grown up.
As for Willow moving on too quickly, if you're a Tara/Willow fan I can definitely see how someone would feel like that. I felt Willow moved on to Tara wayyyy to soon from Oz. But for me I was glad to see it.
I do think Kennedy was kinda like a version of Faith (who I also ship with Willow, coincidence?) but not bland. Remember she only had 13 episodes as apposed to 40 something like Tara, and Tara was only getting interesting towards the end. Kennedy's personality just works for me.
And sorry for derailing this thread! I'll try to get back on topic

 

[Mr Trick]

Nah, Willow and Tara met and did magic together in season 4, talked about and did magic together in season 5, and talked about and did magic together in season 6. Which, yes, partly had to do with the addiction, but partly not. I'm Under Your Spell happened in OMWF right before Tara found about the mind wipe and how bad Willow really was, and her song is still all about magic. Hence the chorus "It's magic..." . Whereas Anya and Xander's couple song is more realistic, where they're actually talking about their relationship and they seem to know really things about each other. The only conversations I can remember between Willow and Tara that weren't about magic were about Japanese commercials and stories about kitty cats. Nothing really...real. It's like they were best friends in middle school or something. With Kennedy, Willow was ready to be grown up.
As for Willow moving on too quickly, if you're a Tara/Willow fan I can definitely see how someone would feel like that. I felt Willow moved on to Tara wayyyy to soon from Oz. But for me I was glad to see it.
I do think Kennedy was kinda like a version of Faith (who I also ship with Willow, coincidence?) but not bland. Remember she only had 13 episodes as apposed to 40 something like Tara, and Tara was only getting interesting towards the end. Kennedy's personality just works for me.
And sorry for derailing this thread! I'll try to get back on topic

But there was nothing wrong with magic being their connection in S4. Willow had started been interested in magic for awhile, and it got to the point where she needed someone to share those interests with, and Tara clearly did too. There's nothing wrong with that, its no different than me signing up to this forum because I want to discuss Buffy with people who love the show also. To use magic in such a way is perfectly logicial for a sure of Buffy's nature. Don't forget that Tara is actaully literally under Willow's spell during that song, so it could be read as something much darker than the dreamy/romantic sound of it. You do raise a good point, but they also have the Dawn bond together, and don't forget that a lot of Buffy's connections to Angel and Spike are related to her role as the Slayer. See that's partly why I don't like Xander/Anya's realtionship. It plays up the stereotypes of men being afraid of committment and that all women what to do is settle down. Not only that, but because of her background you think that Anya would be the last person who would want to get married, but then that's a different subject

Willow had been grown up for awhile, that's why she went through the very grown up issue of addiction. She had made great progress anyway from the Willow we first see to what we see in season 4. I think Kennedy's the imature one.

Difference is that Willow and Tara were already starting to get close when Oz came back into town, and its not like Willow lost Oz the way she lost Tara. She needed more of a greiving process than the show gave her.

You didn't derail it. Its partly the point to discuss the character's merits in greater detail

 

[Monkey Pants]

But there was nothing wrong with magic being their connection in S4. Willow had started been interested in magic for awhile, and it got to the point where she needed someone to share those interests with, and Tara clearly did too. There's nothing wrong with that,

I definitely don't think there's anything wrong with that. After all, everyone needs a way to meet each other and connect at first. After all, Willow and Oz didn't meet till they were both picked by those computer company guys. My problem is that I personally don't feel that they ever progressed past that; past the initial infatuation stage of a relationship. The saw rosy versions of each other, and I don't feel they knew each other that well, which lead to them sticking to the things they did know about each other: magic. Willow and Kennedy didn't really have much in common on the outside, so they had to work around that and get to know the people within to find a connection, instead of resting on their outer similarities. And they found that on the inside they did have similarities-- for one thing a drive, a desire to be somebody, to be controlling in a way--something Tara never had (not that that's a bad thing.) Similarly with Willow and Oz, they started out getting to know each other through their similarities, and then the progressed to get to know the person inside, something I honestly never felt that Willow and Tara did. Tara and Willow both thought each other were these perfect people and were surprised when they found out this wasn't true. Whereas I felt that O and W and K and W saw the flaws in each other immediately and loved each other for them.

Willow had been grown up for awhile, that's why she went through the very grown up issue of addiction. She had made great progress anyway from the Willow we first see to what we see in season 4. I think Kennedy's the imature one.

The difference I feel is that yes, Willow had been going through grown up things (such as the addiction) but she wasn't a grown up yet. It wasn't until she went through those things that she actually became one (season 7). Willow had come a long way since season 1, but it was mostly becoming more and more immature and self involved, not the other way around, which I don't see as becoming more adult. And yes, Kennedy can be immature, which I like. Because now, finally Willow is the more mature one in a relationship, not the screw up who needs to be hand guided by Oz and Tara. I appreciate that Kennedy is more immature than Willow, it's something she never had before.

Difference is that Willow and Tara were already starting to get close when Oz came back into town, and its not like Willow lost Oz the way she lost Tara. She needed more of a greiving process than the show gave her.

Willow was totally in love with Oz and devastated when he left. For her to fall so quickly in love with someone else (literally within a few months) and actually choose Tara over Oz, and say she was in love with Tara seemed totally ridiculous and contrived to me because Seth Green left the show. Willow going from Tara to Kennedy happened way slower, especially considering the summer months that we didn't see. And the difference is that Willow never said she was in love with Kennedy, and wouldn't have chosen her over Tara. She was simply forced to move on. Either way I can agree that it was fast, but that seems to be Willow's style and a way to help her grieve.

 

[Mr Trick]

I definitely don't think there's anything wrong with that. After all, everyone needs a way to meet each other and connect at first. After all, Willow and Oz didn't meet till they were both picked by those computer company guys. My problem is that I personally don't feel that they ever progressed past that; past the initial infatuation stage of a relationship. The saw rosy versions of each other, and I don't feel they knew each other that well, which lead to them sticking to the things they did know about each other: magic. Willow and Kennedy didn't really have much in common on the outside, so they had to work around that and get to know the people within to find a connection, instead of resting on their outer similarities. And they found that on the inside they did have similarities-- for one thing a drive, a desire to be somebody, to be controlling in a way--something Tara never had (not that that's a bad thing.) Similarly with Willow and Oz, they started out getting to know each other through their similarities, and then the progressed to get to know the person inside, something I honestly never felt that Willow and Tara did. Tara and Willow both thought each other were these perfect people and were surprised when they found out this wasn't true. Whereas I felt that O and W and K and W saw the flaws in each other immediately and loved each other for them.

The difference I feel is that yes, Willow had been going through grown up things (such as the addiction) but she wasn't a grown up yet. It wasn't until she went through those things that she actually became one (season 7). Willow had come a long way since season 1, but it was mostly becoming more and more immature and self involved, not the other way around, which I don't see as becoming more adult. And yes, Kennedy can be immature, which I like. Because now, finally Willow is the more mature one in a relationship, not the screw up who needs to be hand guided by Oz and Tara. I appreciate that Kennedy is more immature than Willow, it's something she never had before.

Willow was totally in love with Oz and devastated when he left. For her to fall so quickly in love with someone else (literally within a few months) and actually choose Tara over Oz, and say she was in love with Tara seemed totally ridiculous and contrived to me because Seth Green left the show. Willow going from Tara to Kennedy happened way slower, especially considering the summer months that we didn't see. And the difference is that Willow never said she was in love with Kennedy, and wouldn't have chosen her over Tara. She was simply forced to move on. Either way I can agree that it was fast, but that seems to be Willow's style and a way to help her grieve.

But its not like Willow and Tara were in love straight away, because even when people start going out in the real world, its not love at that point, they have romantic feelings for each other, but love comes later. To me their relationship seemed a very slow burning one. It was more of a friendship at first, then it became something more romantic. If she was crazy in love with Tara just a few months after the split with Oz then I would agree that it came too soon, but I think it was slower process than that.

You make some interesting points, and clearly have a different reading on the Tara character than me. I don't really agree, but you made your arguments well.

 

[Monkey Pants]

But its not like Willow and Tara were in love straight away, because even when people start going out in the real world, its not love at that point, they have romantic feelings for each other, but love comes later. To me their relationship seemed a very slow burning one. It was more of a friendship at first, then it became something more romantic. If she was crazy in love with Tara just a few months after the split with Oz then I would agree that it came too soon, but I think it was slower process than that.

You make some interesting points, and clearly have a different reading on the Tara character than me. I don't really agree, but you made your arguments well.

Oz left in season 4 ep 6, Tara came into the show in season 4 ep 10, and Willow was ready to choose Tara over Oz and declare her love for her in season 4 ep 19. They've know each other for 9 episodes. 9!!! Personally, I find the fact that they would write it like that ridiculous. She was with Oz for like 2 and a half years, and now she she's going to choose someone else over him when he comes back for her? I don't think a slow burn can really occur in 9 episodes. It may feel like a slow burn because it was mainly subtext at first, but it still happened very fast in terms of episode count. If they had had Oz's return occur in season 5 I would have bought it a lot more. But as is I absolutely do not buy it. Oz did come back just a few months after they split.
Anyway, thanks for saying that haha, I find it really hard to get my feelings about Willow's pairings across because they're such unpopular opinions

 

[Mr Trick]

Oz left in season 4 ep 6, Tara came into the show in season 4 ep 10, and Willow was ready to choose Tara over Oz and declare her love for her in season 4 ep 19. They've know each other for 9 episodes. 9!!! Personally, I find the fact that they would write it like that ridiculous. She was with Oz for like 2 and a half years, and now she she's going to choose someone else over him when he comes back for her? I don't think a slow burn can really occur in 9 episodes. It may feel like a slow burn because it was mainly subtext at first, but it still happened very fast in terms of episode count. If they had had Oz's return occur in season 5 I would have bought it a lot more. But as is I absolutely do not buy it. Oz did come back just a few months after they split.
Anyway, thanks for saying that haha, I find it really hard to get my feelings about Willow's pairings across because they're such unpopular opinions

But again you are reading it like her and Tara were in love from that point. I don't think they were, its just that Willow like you say had made the choice to be with Tara not Oz. How can you compare real life time with television time? Nine episodes might have represented five months for all you know, in which case I don't think that is too much of a stretch for a start of another realtionship. And like you highlighted there were a few episodes between Oz leaving and Willow meeting Tara, so those need to be taken into account too.

Think you are right, but of course they couldn't do it then because Green was off doing the Hollywood thing.

 

[Monkey Pants]

But again you are reading it like her and Tara were in love from that point. I don't think they were, its just that Willow like you say had made the choice to be with Tara not Oz. How can you compare real life time with television time? Nine episodes might have represented five months for all you know, in which case I don't think that is too much of a stretch for a start of another realtionship. And like you highlighted there were a few episodes between Oz leaving and Willow meeting Tara, so those need to be taken into account too.

Think you are right, but of course they couldn't do it then because Green was off doing the Hollywood thing.

Well in New Moon Rising Tara says "you should be with who you love" and Willow said "I am", so yes, I do read it like they are in love. And if they weren't, then I find it even more unlikely that she would not choose Oz. If 22 episodes represents round 9 months, than 9 episodes probably represents around 4 months, which I do think is fast to get over a relationship of over 2 and a half years. That's my perspective though. If Oz had not come back I would not have been nearly as bothered by it. Just because I feel, logically, like Willow would have gone back to Oz, like Buffy would do with Angel. That's just how I see it.

 

[vellavu]

Willow.

Willow is the best character created by Joss Whedon, and one of the best characters in all possible fiction universes.

 

[Spanky]

If 22 episodes represents round 9 months, than 9 episodes probably represents around 4 months, which I do think is fast to get over a relationship of over 2 and a half years. That's my perspective though. If Oz had not come back I would not have been nearly as bothered by it. Just because I feel, logically, like Willow would have gone back to Oz, like Buffy would do with Angel. That's just how I see it.

But Oz also disapproved of Willow and her use of magic and she had grown so much since then. So why should she want to 'stunt' her growth and go back to someone that made her feel bad for using magic where she could choose Tara, who would practically worship her for choosing her over Oz and not think twice about Willow's magic use. She picked Tara for magic moreso than love.

 

[Athena]

She picked Tara for magic moreso than love.

Magic was probably part of the attraction, yes, but I think love was the overwhelming majority....

 

[Spanky]

Magic was probably part of the attraction, yes, but I think love was the overwhelming majority....

I disagree. I just think Tara was a means to an end and nothing really shown changes my mind on that. She has fondness for her, but she has it for Buffy, Xander and Giles too.

 

[Ethan Reigns]

In response to the thread title, my preference is Fred first, Willow second, Tara last. @Monkey Pants you are not alone in thinking Tara was dull and just didn't have the confidence to drive Willow away from magic. Willow was a character who went from nerdy teen to powerhouse witch and showed all kinds of interesting alterations to her character throughout the series. But Fred was beautiful, intelligent and tried to ensure no more disappearances would happen by sending her old professor where she had been sent. She eventually morphed into Illyria, one of the most interesting people in either show.

 

[Monkey Pants]

But Oz also disapproved of Willow and her use of magic and she had grown so much since then. So why should she want to 'stunt' her growth and go back to someone that made her feel bad for using magic where she could choose Tara, who would practically worship her for choosing her over Oz and not think twice about Willow's magic use. She picked Tara for magic moreso than love.

I don't think Oz made her feel bad for using magic (certainly not as bad as Tara did) he was just concerned. But I certainly do agree that magic was a big part of why she chose Tara, and that it wasn't the soulmate love everyone thinks. She partially was using Tara so that she could grow strong and powerful and be the strong one in a relationship for a change. I don't think it was really respect or that much love for Tara. Which is a huge part of why I dislike the relationship! I felt Willow should have chosen Oz for the real love that they actually had.

 

[Spanky]

I don't think Oz made her feel bad for using magic (certainly not as bad as Tara did) he was just concerned.

They had some arguments about it. She accused him of (paraphrasing) not having faith in her or believing she could do it.

 

[Monkey Pants]

They had some arguments about it. She accused him of (paraphrasing) not having faith in her or believing she could do it.

Yes, but not nearly as much as Tara. And in that episode they were having their fears become reality. Ultimately I think we are agreeing about most things though

 

[Mr Trick]

Well in New Moon Rising Tara says "you should be with who you love" and Willow said "I am", so yes, I do read it like they are in love. And if they weren't, then I find it even more unlikely that she would not choose Oz. If 22 episodes represents round 9 months, than 9 episodes probably represents around 4 months, which I do think is fast to get over a relationship of over 2 and a half years. That's my perspective though. If Oz had not come back I would not have been nearly as bothered by it. Just because I feel, logically, like Willow would have gone back to Oz, like Buffy would do with Angel. That's just how I see it.

Fair enough, but I still think the Tara-Willow romance was more of a friendship at first, and don't forget saying you love someone can mean many different things, and we are still talking about young people here, so maybe there were just swept up in romance without actually knowing what love means, or actually being in love. But you can't denay that it turned into a long term thing, and chances are if not for the events of Seeing Red than it would have lasted beyond that.

And I'm a bit staggered that you think that Willow should have chose Oz after his actions in Wild at Heart

 

[Monkey Pants]

Fair enough, but I still think the Tara-Willow romance was more of a friendship at first, and don't forget saying you love someone can mean many different things, and we are still talking about young people here, so maybe there were just swept up in romance without actually knowing what love means, or actually being in love. But you can't denay that it turned into a long term thing, and chances are if not for the events of Seeing Red than it would have lasted beyond that.

And I'm a bit staggered that you think that Willow should have chose Oz after his actions in Wild at Heart

I actually think had Tara survived, the relationship would have fractured.
And I'm more for Willow getting back with Oz after he cheated than Tara getting back with Willow after she wiped her mind