Who loved Buffy more: Angel or Spike?

[white avenger]

Cry me a river. Sadly, there quite a few fans who are always pushing their ickle fantasies on everybody, who happens to disagree with them.

Thank you for helping to make my point.

What's an "ickle" fantasy?

 

[KellGreen]

IMO, they both loved her as much as they could, and how they could. Angel is reserved, and loves her that way. Spike loves with all of himself, 'cause that's just how he is. I love like Spike, but usually end up in relationships with men like Angel. Neither love is Perfect, but real love never is. Yes, i believe they both loved her as completely as they were capable of.

The relationships overall are very different because of the changes in time, maturity and life experiences that separate the two. Buffy is an adolescent when she first falls in love, with Angel; whereas she is an adult who has lost her mother, gained responsibility for a magical key sister, died and was resurrected when she fell in love with Spike.

I try really hard not to dismiss adolescent love, but I find it becomes gradually more difficult as I age further away from those years. Adolescent love TENDS TO be more naive and idealized (rose-colored glasses and all that).

 

[GoSpuffy]

The way this is phrased makes it difficult to answer. I don't think love can be quantified. I think @Taake comes closest. You love or you don't love, you don't love someone 50% or 75% . It's more like love has a time and a place that fits into your life. It doesn't mean less if it doesn't last, it just means it's time has passed. To me it's not a question of who loved Buffy more, but who brings her the most happiness right now.....so I'm voting Spike (I know, no surprise there)

 

[BuffyBot22]

I think Angel loved her more. And I'm not just saying this because I am a die hard Bangel shipper. I just feel like his love for her was pure and everlasting. He truly loved the girl and the slayer. He loved all of Buffy. He loved her enough to let her go and have a normal life outside of demons and darkness because he knew how desperately she longed for normalcy. I don't completely agree with what he did, but I understand where he was coming from when he left at the end of s3.

Spike, on the other hand was obsessed with her. Obsession never equals love. First, he was obsessed with killing her, then with making her love him, then with having sex with her. To me it was never about Buffy the girl, it was about Buffy the slayer because Spike has past obsession with slayers. When he got his soul we see a beautiful friendship between them, but is it love? Maybe in the platonic sense for her, but for him he is still stuck on being in love with her than really taking the time to get to know her. I feel like he thought he loved her and maybe in his own twisted way he did. But obsession and love are not the same thing. I have seriously conflicting feelings own Spike's feelings for her lol. Sometimes I feel like s7 Spike was in love her, but sometimes I feel like it was a continuation of his obsession.

 

[DeadlyDuo]

Sometimes I feel like s7 Spike was in love her, but sometimes I feel like it was a continuation of his obsession.

Spike recognised that Buffy didn't truly love him. When she said she loved him, Spike told her "No you don't, but thanks for saying it". I wish Spike had that revelation sooner so we could've avoided all the Spuffy drama.

 

[Slayrunt]

I like spike and buffy not gonna lie.
And I feel they both loved her the same amount. Not one more then the other. Buttttttt.....
I found them both to be a tiny bit creepy in that spike was super possessive (yes seeing red I know I know) and angel was watching her before he met her... and also she was only 16 when they met.
Can someone be possessive and love at the same time I think so?
The only difference is spike gets called out on this but angel not so much.
If They had both been normal guys most people would have screamed creep to both of them (rightfully so)

 

[BuffyBot22]

I like spike and buffy not gonna lie.
And I feel they both loved her the same amount. Not one more then the other. Buttttttt.....
I found them both to be a tiny bit creepy in that spike was super possessive (yes seeing red I know I know) and angel was watching her before he met her... and also she was only 16 when they met.
Can someone be possessive and love at the same time I think so?
The only difference is spike gets called out on this but angel not so much.
If They had both been normal guys most people would have screamed creep to both of them (rightfully so)

Possessive? Hmm Idk if it can be true love. Depends on how possessive you are. Most people are slightly possessive over someone or something they love, by not wanting to share it with others. But in a monogamous relationship this should just be understood that you are each others. But, people can become extremely possessive of others to the point they treat you like property (now that is not love at all, that is control).

Obsessive? No, this is not love. This is becoming so consumed by wanting that person that it's almost to the point that you don't even know why you want him/her, you just know you must have him/her at any cost.

I think Angel gets called out on his creepy factor, but to be fair Whistler brought Angel to her to show him he was worth more than eating rats in allies while hating his entire existence. Whistler took Angel to her to show him he could be useful, needed, and could even be a champion even if he was only ever a champion by helping a 16 year old girl with the weight of the world on her shoulders. So this basically negates any creepy factor of Angel watching her before they met.

Now, Spike on the other hand created an exact replica of Buffy in the form of the BuffyBot in order to boink it. That is obsessive, creepy, stalkerish, and just down right disturbing.

 

[gnarl]

A lot of people have been saying Spike and Angel loved Buffy equally but in different ways. But where they really that different?

When Angel was soulless he was obsessed with Buffy, wanted to own her in some way and planned to do so in the same way he took control of Drucilla (killing her whole family, convincing her that she was evil and driving her mad). Spike was also obsessed with Buffy and wanted her to be 'his'. Spike relentlessly pursued Buffy and told her that she belonged in the shadows with him (Angelus - human Dru?), Angel wanted to kill everyone Buffy cared most about, leaving her alone and broken (similarly, Spike encouraged Buffy's feeling of isolation from her friends in S6).

Angelus had a strong aversion to the idea of love while Spike was obsessed with the it. Thus they both acted out similar feelings of obsession, lust and twisted vampire 'love' in different ways. (Spike also had the (dis)advantage of having a chip, which made his attempts a lot less fatal)

Once re-ensouled, both vampires tried to help and support Buffy in a platonic way, knowing that they couldn't be in a romantic relationship. They both wanted to leave her to protect the people around them (Spike with the trigger, Angel with the curse).
Spike did seem more able to be in a platonic friendship than Angel but that might just be that he knew that Buffy couldn't reciprocate his feelings.

I think the 'different kinds of love' are more about how much screen-time it gets and how it's introduced: Spike spends a lot more time without a soul and his soulful love is forever compromised by what he did while he had no soul. Angel on the other hand, is introduced as Buffy's love interest so his soulful love sets the president for what their relationship is like and Angelus is seen as a departure from that.

Also, Spike and Angel have very different personalities and insecurities so it comes out differently. But is it fundamentally different? 😵

...I'm not completely convinced by my own arguments here but I thought I'd put it out there, add or subtract as you please...😛

 

[thetopher]

When Angel was soulless he was obsessed with Buffy, wanted to own her in some way and planned to do so in the same way he took control of Drucilla (killing her whole family, convincing her that she was evil and driving her mad). Spike was also obsessed with Buffy and wanted her to be 'his'.

I think the intent was different but the result would've been the same. Angelus wanted to utterly destroy Buffy on an emotional level; destroy her life and inflict a lot of pain. He failed because Buffy was too strong emotionally.
Spike didn't want that but he ended up doing it anyway, so much so that Buffy said that being with him was 'killing her', and not for nothing. But again Buffy found the emotional strength to 'fight' him off.

Also, Spike and Angel have very different personalities and insecurities so it comes out differently.

Angel was secure in himself enough to leave Buffy on her own and only return if/when she might need him. Spike seems to need to be with Buffy all the time.

 

[Bop]

I feel like Spike loved Buffy more because he could never stay away from her, unlike Angel, who moved to LA and grew into his own wonderful character. On the other hand the fact that Angel could leave Buffy to have a better life without him (as he could never give her what normal men can) proves that he loved Buffy more.

 

[thetopher]

I guess it just depends on your definition of 'More'. What does 'more' mean? How do you quantify it? Is it 'time spent' or 'devotion' or 'knowing that other person?' *shrug*

 

[Carrie Hopewell]

Like @thetopher said, I don't know what "more" means. However, I know which of the characters I would prefer to love me and what kind of love I want someone to feel for me. Loving someone, in general, means feeling affection for someone, wanting to express that affection, wanting that person in your life, wanting the best for that person and to provide that, wanting to know the person, etc. Still, everyone's different. Some people want to express affection but don't know how to, others perhaps express it the wrong way. This doesn't mean they love someone less.

Going by my broad definition, I think Angel wins by a mile. He always wants what's best for Buffy, he wants to be with her but not if the cost is her life, he touches her often and tells her he loves her, he tries to make her happy, he helps her out, he loves her selflessly, he's always interested in hearing about her day, etc.
Spike wants Buffy even if the cost is her sanity and dignity, even if he knows she's not thinking straight. He's more interested in having sex with her and annihilating her from her friends than in encouraging her to live her life. He definitely loves her worse. I don't want that kind of love, and Buffy didn't either.

 

[RomanticSoul]

Guess it depends on what 'love' is for each individual person. And then what 'more' means in terms of your definition of love.

I'd probably say Angel though, simply because he was willing to let her go and find a working relationship when their own romance could pretty much go nowhere. Also Angel was willing to deny himself (aka 'not having' Buffy), something he did a lot.

For Spike it's always Spike >>>>> everyone else, including Buffy. If he loved her he wouldn't have come back to Sunnydale after S6. If he loved her he wouldn't have taken advantage of her post-heaven depression. If he loved her he wouldn't have encouraged her isolation in S7 but it sure was beneficial to him. Spike would never have denied himself because for him he always comes first.

Guess Spike is not capable of selfless love in the sense of putting the other person first. And that just doesn't appeal to me. And it sure doesn't fit my definition of love.

 

[BuffyBot22]

Guess it depends on what 'love' is for each individual person. And then what 'more' means in terms of your definition of love.

I'd probably say Angel though, simply because he was willing to let her go and find a working relationship when their own romance could pretty much go nowhere. Also Angel was willing to deny himself (aka 'not having' Buffy), something he did a lot.

For Spike it's always Spike >>>>> everyone else, including Buffy. If he loved her he wouldn't have come back to Sunnydale after S6. If he loved her he wouldn't have taken advantage of her post-heaven depression. If he loved her he wouldn't have encouraged her isolation in S7 but it sure was beneficial to him. Spike would never have denied himself because for him he always comes first.

Guess Spike is not capable of selfless love in the sense of putting the other person first. And that just doesn't appeal to me. And it sure doesn't fit my definition of love.

I agree the difference is Angel loved her SELFLESSLY and Spike loved her SELFISHLY so therefore I come to the conclusion that Angel loved her better.
Love in its purist form is not selfish.

 

[Mrs Gordo]

Agree with @RomanticSoul and @BuffyBot22 ; its hard to say who loved her "more" because of the definitions attached to it but I know that Angel loved her more selflessly. But that also means that Spike, for selfish reasons, fought hard for her, where as Angel gave up on their "love" (for reasons he believed to be noble).

Season 6 Spike if it was love (which I subscribe to the opinion that given the way the Soul mythology was set up it was NOT) but even if I'm to believe the text of the show shoved down my throat that Spike loved Buffy, then that love was entirely Selfish. It was downright toxic for Buffy. Fast forward to Season 7 and if I am buying the story that is being sold that ensouled Spike then falls in love with Buffy, he does so without ever apologizing for the things he did as the demon (show only, I understand he does that in comics). He never considers that her life would be better without an attachment to him and continues to hang around and appears to want a relationship. I don't expect him to be a martyr like Angel (not in his character) but during the shows they don't show Spike considering how Buffy's life would be better without him in it. Bottom line is even with a soul, he is a Vampire, and dead, can't have kids, and when he was a demon he did some pretty horrible crap to her and if he he truly loved her these are issues that should at LEAST have been addressed by him in the context of "I love you but is this really what is best for you, lets talk about it..." And that lack of empathy for what is best for Buffy or at least consideration to me means that Spike's love was inferior to that of Angel's love.

But I guess that all kinda comes down to what does Love mean to you?

 

[Fool for Buffy]

I believe that if Angel had to choose between saving the world and saving Buffy, he would save the world. He is a champion and accepts it as a responsibility and a burden. Just like Buffy in Becoming Part 2. Spike, on the other hand, would save Buffy instead of the world. He wouldn't want to live in a world without Buffy in it. In Chosen, when he does die saving the world, he yells at her to go when it seems she might have stayed and burned with him. He was willing to save the world but not unless she survived. So I don't know if that means Spike loved Buffy more than Angel, but it is worth pointing out imo.

 

[RomanticSoul]

I believe that if Angel had to choose between saving the world and saving Buffy, he would save the world. He is a champion and accepts it as a responsibility and a burden. Just like Buffy in Becoming Part 2. Spike, on the other hand, would save Buffy instead of the world. He wouldn't want to live in a world without Buffy in it. In Chosen, when he does die saving the world, he yells at her to go when it seems she might have stayed and burned with him. He was willing to save the world but not unless she survived. So I don't know if that means Spike loved Buffy more than Angel, but it is worth pointing out imo.

Poor examples IMO. If saving the world means saving the world, then that includes Buffy because she is in the world. If Angel saved the world he also saved Buffy, just like Spike saving the world from the First's army saved Buffy. No difference.

 

[Fool for Buffy]

Poor examples IMO. If saving the world means saving the world, then that includes Buffy because she is in the world. If Angel saved the world he also saved Buffy, just like Spike saving the world from the First's army saved Buffy. No difference.

I'm saying if they had a choice between buffy and the world. It's theoretical.

 

[TriBel]

Okay...here goes. Buffy will always love Angel but where does that love go? It's pure - perfect happiness: the only way for it to go is down. There's no room for growth - no room for development. As far as I can see, it exists only as a concept, an ideal. If something is perfect you can't change it - add anything to it - or take anything away. It's something you aspire to - completion. When was Buffy last complete? When she was dead. I really like Angel - particularly in AtS but unless Whedon changes the logic of his universe, I can't see it going anywhere. She may always love him more than anyone else she's with - some people love God more than their partners - but they don't live with them.

Spike - will always love Buffy more than she loves him. She is the centre of his universe - he would die for her (the world would be an afterthought). She is the Alpha through to Omega of his being. Did they love each other in S6 - yes. Spike was figured as Eros - the Greek God of love. Eros is a creative force - passion creates life, passion creates things, it's linked to desire. The problem is Eros is often associated with Thanatos - the death drive. Thanatos is destructive - but you have to destroy before you can create. Eros, according to Aristophanes, was born from Chaos and Night (I think). In other myths he was married to Psyche (she is the Greek personification of the soul). If you want to know why certain things happened at the beginning of 7- no apology etc. rewatch the end of Grave and listen to the lyrics of St Francis Prayer - it gives you her position. They were both as bad as each other in S6. They have different psychic structures but they were both on the inside track to suicide.

What we see in Season 7 is the emergence of Philia, and “The hallmark of philia, or friendship, is shared goodwill. Aristotle believed a person can bear goodwill to another for one of three reasons—that he is useful; that he is pleasant; and, above all, that he is good, that is, rational and virtuous. Friendships founded on goodness are associated not only with mutual benefit but also with companionship, dependability, and trust. For Plato, the best kind of friendship is that which lovers have for each other. It is a philia born out of eros, and that in turn feeds back into eros to strengthen and develop it, transforming it from a lust for possession into a shared desire for a higher level of understanding of the self, the other, and the world. In sum, philia transforms eros from a lust for possession into an impulse for philosophy”.

This is fine - except for the bold terms. Buffy doesn't want good in this sense - she wants some monster in her man. It makes him a better fighter - and improves their sex live - she's a grown women. Aristotle didn't have vampires in mind when he formulated his ideas. Spike's holding back in S7 - terrified both of himself and of repeating the mistakes he made in S6. She is telling him she loves him - it's in the pauses in her speech - it's slipping through from her unconscious. Look at the exchange with Amanda at the beginning of Potential - she's talking about herself. The answers and clues are in the editing and the mise-en-scene. This is, first and foremost, a visual representation. It's highly dependent on mythic/religious and Espenson is Exec. Producer - she knows her Psychoanalysis and her Phenomenology and that's the philosophical route its taken.

Agape - fraternal love - makes an appearance towards the end. It's a suffusion of love. Can I testify to the above - yes, but not in less than 30,000 words. Seriously, where the comics are now is already in place by the end of S7. Does she love Spike - yes - not in the same way he loves her. She knows his love is unconditional (more or less) and she knows it's not pure. It's normal. Moreover, it's not complete and I think this is why Whedon likes Spike - the character and the relationship can develop. Will it end...perhaps it will. But, in the words of the sublime Leonard Cohen "I've loved you for a long, long time and I know this love is real". (Except in a Lacanian sense and I'm not going there).

It could all go wrong - I could be wrong - Whedon's deliberately structured ambiguity into it but - seriously - I don't think I'm clever enough (or mad enough) to make it up if it isn't already in the text.
 

Define love in its purest romantic sense, vesrus lust , obsession, desire to possess, to own as an object of desire, to be with sexually? Are these one and the same? If you think sexual drive and desire to copulate defines love - then sure, Spike is your choice.

Love in its purest sense was an invention of the Troubadours (I think). It always has to be illicit - it can't come to fruition. The problem with this type of love is it turns women into a Thing. Obsession and possession are all a part of love - it's the degree that's important - do you want a lover who isn't interested in you? Possession - don't you want to "belong to someone", to have them "belong to you"? Isn't this why we say "my partner"? Again - it's degree. Desire is a tricky term. Arguably "desire" is what the world runs on (take away want from need and what's left is desire). We desire things that make us feel more complete (which is why we say "our other half"). Copulation - arguably we need the term love to disguise the fact that we copulate - it separates us from animals. As far as I'm aware there's no timeless, universal concept of Love - it was different for the Victorians, the Romantics, the Greeks etc. and that's just the West, It's also different depending on whether it was heterosexual or homosexual - some forms were banned, some accepted, some cultures recognise three genders. In short - I don't think there's such a thing as pure love. Even Spiritual love has an ecstatic element. Oh...I forgot endorphins - in effect Buffy's probably better off eating a bar of chocolate. 😉

 

[RomanticSoul]

Okay...here goes. Buffy will always love Angel but where does that love go? It's pure - perfect happiness: the only way for it to go is down. There's no room for growth - no room for development. As far as I can see, it exists only as a concept, an ideal. If something is perfect you can't change it - add anything to it - or take anything away.

But isn't this point based on a false premise? First of all, perfect happiness only counted for one of them, once, and that was Angel. Second I agree with Wesley in that perfect happiness is so rare that it's almost impossible to achieve while you are alive. And the more Angel went through in his own life the less likely that it would ever happen for him again. Third, Buffy and Angel were never perfect and were never going to be because of their very nature (slayer/vampire, human/immortal). Fourth, while their relationship may have seemed perfect to pre-Angelus Buffy (though I wouldn't know), post-Angelus Buffy had to face some harsh realities.

As I see it Buffy/Spike is the relationship that can't develop. Spike takes Buffy in any way that he can get her (robot, depressed, rotting zombie corpse) and seems to be fine with her loving him less than he loves her (something Riley didn't accept because he felt he deserved more and I agree). So Buffy automatically holds all the cards in the relationship. She makes or breaks it, always, because Spike accepts whatever scraps he can get. It's a relationship that can't change and won't because Spike doesn't change.