Who loved Buffy more: Angel or Spike?

[EarthLogic]

@Antho - Well said!

 

[Antho]

In fact I forgot one thing : Not every Angel's fan are Bangel's fan. Not every Spike's fan are Spuffy's fan.
Yeah, now it's better 🙂

 

[DayDreamer27]

I get confused myself. there's a question of, whether you think love can include obsession. That's where I place Spike's feelings. I recall Bewitched, Bothered, and Bewildered, where Xander has Amy cast a love spell. See, it's called a love spell, but it makes people obsessive. Giles even says that what Amy was feelings wasn't love, but obsession. Then he says if she cared for him, she'd be trying to save him from danger, instead of talking about what she's feeling.

So, it depends on whether you see love as self-sacrificing and caring for another. And can you classify obsession into it, and still call it love when one person is more concerned about what they feel instead of their desired, or partner.

This post is VERY long. Sorry. And it's mainly how I feel regarding Spike's feelings & behavior Pre-Soul. But I do put a contrast with Angel in near the end.

I have always said I don't think Spike loved Buffy, but felt Limerence for her. There was attraction, lust, and even fondness. But I never read it as love, because it didn't seem like he cared about her. Like the obsession spell, it cared more about his own feelings and what he felt regardless of what effect it had on Buffy.

Season 6. Buffy was ripped from Heaven (the dvd commentary saying she was with her mother). But she's taken from paradise, and returns to this world having to break herself out of a coffin. She was not mental stable, nor happy. Spike started working his seduction on her. Saying she's evil, that she came back wrong, that she will never be normal, that she belongs in the darkness with him & not with her friends. All of these things made Buffy hate herself, and feel shame. But regardless, that's what Spike wanted to be true, and he convinces himself and tries to convince Buffy that she's evil just like him and living in denial about it. He doesn't respect her boundaries, nor does he care that his actions fuel her self-hatred. He wants her, and he's doing what he can to seduce her into the darkness with him. He wants her at the expense of her self-respect & sanity. He's not thinking about what she wants, nor does he care. What matters is him having her, by any means necessary.

Finally, after speaking to Riley, Buffy finds her strength. She admits she can't be hard on Spike, because he's being who he is. She ends their f. buddy arrangement,, and shows him basic consideration for the first time -even calling him William. She also admitted point blank that she was being weak & selfish by using him, and being that way was killing her. But he couldn't take that for an answer. he still had to follow her around to ask why she won't sleep with him again, and she bluntly tells him because she doesn't love him.

Once again, having no respect for her boundaries or what gives her real strength, he tells her she's just lying to herself when she says she doesn't love him. He WANTS her to love him, so he's already convince himself that she does, and anything less that an admittance of that is just her lying. He's the one in denial, but can't accept that he is, and tries convincing Buffy that it's really her who isn't being honest with things. This is a classic thing even in real life. On many advice forums, it's usually women. But they tells us about how a guy treats them. And it's obvious to everyone, but them, that the guys don't love them. But they have rationalized the behavior to perfection, so they can still come out seeing what they want than admit they're only being used and their feelings aren't reciprocated to the extent that want.

It's not just Spike. BOTH he & Buffy were mutually selfish. Both had their own stuff going on, and were thinking about what they wanted, not each other. Which is why I believe Buffy when she says her feelings for Spike are not love.

Also, look at how he acts with Xander, Riley, and Angel. He talks about her like something he won. When Riley shows up in his crypt, Buffy is clearly humiliated, but Spike doesn't care. He finds the situation humorless, than takes a childish bragging stance on how Buffy's shagging him now, and claiming she was thinking of him when she was with Riley. Then he blabs to Xander about how he was good enough for Buffy when she clearly never planned for him to know that. But again, what Buffy wants is irrelevant. Long as he gets to use her as a trophy to stick to Xander. Then saying to Angel how Buffy wasn't thinking about him with all the shagging they were doing. He didn't speak very respectfully about the woman he claimed to love. And this was AFTER he had a soul. lol

Then him having Buffbot definitely showed a bad image. The robot looked like Buffy, but was nothing like her. It was a passive sexbot that did whatever Spike wanted. And that isn't the real Buffy, showing that he liked the idea and fantasy of her. But he wasn't appreciating her for who she really was.

So I by default say Angel loved her more, because I don't think Spike loved her at all. He saw her as desirable, and treated her like a prize & subsequent trophy to show off to every man in her life. Plus, not like it doesn't help his rep. Killed 2 slayers, then screwed one over to the dark side as his mate.

Now for Angel, I see his feelings as love because he cared about HER. He didn't showboat or parade her around. he cared how Buffy felt about things. And he tried to do what was best for her, regardless of what he wanted. Like college. She didn't wanna leave SD because of him. She doesn't tell him that, but asks what she should do. Angel tells her she should leave because it's a good opportunity for her. He didn't want her to go. But in that moment, he was thinking about things that could help make her life better. He wasn't giving advice based on his desires. If you put Spike in that position, he'd have told her college is stupid, and how she's not college material anyhow, simply to avoid losing her.

In IWRY, Angel gave up his humanity, happiness, and chance to be with Buffy to save her life and others'. And I think that moment alone was more than anything Spike ever did. Angel expected nothing but the saving of Buffy's life by going back to the Oracles. Contrasting to Spike doing things then expecting praise and rewards for them.

 

[Mrs Gordo]

He WANTS her to love him, so he's already convince himself that she does, and anything less that an admittance of that is just her lying. He's the one in denial, but can't accept that he is, and tries convincing Buffy that it's really her who isn't being honest with things. This is a classic thing even in real life. On many advice forums, it's usually women.

So much yes. It drives me up a wall when people don't respect what Buffy is telling us over and over in plain English. There are times when Buffy is conflicted and saying things and then there are times when she is level headed and she is thinking clearly and she says to Spike calmly, I don't love you. But Spike's refusal to believe it is also reflected in the fandom: She was in denial, she wouldn't allow herself to love him, she is lying to herself. Give Buffy some god damned credit. If she says in s11, with perfect clarity and no impending death that she loves Spike I believe her 100%. If she tells us in s6 that she didn't love Spike, I believe her. I know she is a character and we project our feelings on the characters and relationships we love but alot of this is pretty evident from the text. And I also hate the "she just doesn't know what she feels trope."

Then saying to Angel how Buffy wasn't thinking about him with all the shagging they were doing. He didn't speak very respectfully about the woman he claimed to love. And this was AFTER he had a soul. lol

I. Hate. this. Angel and Spike bring out the worst in each other and this... is just the worst for Spike.

 

[crazysoulless]

Almost everything makes me want to say Angel loves her more except I can't get beyond Angel discrediting all the reasons he left Buffy in AtS s3-4. He dumped Buffy, left town, and cut her out of his life because of the happiness clause & his vampirism but then tried to make Cordelia his girlfriend despite the happiness clause & vampirism. She was two hours away and yet he waited another two seasons before going back to her. The Angel from IWRY would've never been on the bluffs. It was such a plot device. Angel's reason for staying away from Buffy became just about them being on different shows/networks. AtS s1-2 were the "if there was any way" Angel trying to forge a life without the person he feels would make his life complete and AtS s5 was biding his time "waiting patiently" for Buffy to accept him back after breaking her heart. It seemed like they understood that when Fred said "the vampire who can have anything except love" but then ignored that until End Of Days.

And he tried to bring back Angelus by having sex with Darla even though the last thing Angelus did was try to murder Buffy and had spent four months tomenting her with the intention of siring her to replace the vacancy (Angel staked Darla when she tried to kill Buffy) in the whirlwind fanged four.

 

[Anyanka Bunny Slayer]

Hmmm, I'm re-thinking this topic now. On one hand, you have Angel; a vampire tormented by a soul. As a human, he was a drunken layabout, whoring his way through a rather lackluster life. And then one night, his drunken penis, like a weather vane, points in the direction of a fragile-looking blond beauty...Darla. She sires him, they slaughter people joyfully, he gets cursed with a soul (those pesky gypsies!), and eventually stalks keeps an eye on the current Slayer, a 16 year-old cutie named Buffy Summers. They fall for each other. She gets her cherry popped. He turns evil. She sends him to hell. He comes back. She soothes him in his feral state, telling no one he's back. She still loves him. Does he love her? Or is he just turned on by a much younger female, who clearly worships him? Oooh! And she can kick his ass too. (Some guys are into that sort of thing, I've heard) But is it love? They can never do the horizontal bop again, lest he, y'know, turns all evil again. So...?

And then there's dear William. He composes frightful poetry, is obsessed with Cecily, and after she shuts him down, he encounters sweet, demented Drusilla. Bam! He's a vampire now. He and Dru hang with Darla and Angelus. They kill and maim, pretty much ruining everyone's day. Then they go to Sunnydale. Long story short, Blondie bear becomes obsessed with killing the Slayer. But she keeps kicking his ass! And one day, he gets a chip put in his head. Bugger! He can't harm humans anymore....and he becomes OBSESSED with Buffy. Since he can't actually kill her now, he decides he's in love with her. Buuuuut....she dies (again). Annnnd...she comes back. They start banging. A lot. Then she puts a stop to it. He gets a soul to prove something. Does he love her? He thinks so.

So, who loved Buffy more? Riley. 😛

 

[Mrs Gordo]

And he tried to bring back Angelus by having sex with Darla even though the last thing Angelus did was try to murder Buffy and had spent four months tomenting her with the intention of siring her to replace the vacancy (Angel staked Darla when she tried to kill Buffy) in the whirlwind fanged four.

No one will ever convince me that Angel thought he would lose his soul to Darla that night. He was giving up sure, but he was not trying to commit suicide. And even Darla figures it out after they slept together. She says something like “you knew it” and he doesn’t deny her.

 

[crazysoulless]

No one will ever convince me that Angel thought he would lose his soul to Darla that night. He was giving up sure, but he was not trying to commit suicide. And even Darla figures it out after they slept together. She says something like “you knew it” and he doesn’t deny her.

I'd feel better believing he wasn't so OOC as to try to commit suicide via unleashing Angelus when just 2 years earlier he tried to commit suicide to prevent Angelus from ever being unleashed.

So what do you think the night meant if it wasn't a suicide attempt? Why did he snap out of his downward spiral when he woke up still souled? He already had Angelus' 145 years of memories of sex with his sire so it wasn't as big a deal as 20 year old Buffy sleeping with a soulless vampire.

What did Angel think would be different in the morning? Why did one night of meaningless sex make him decide not to give up? If Angel knew he could have sex without risking the soul, why did he not point that out amidst all the eunuch jokes?

 

[Mrs Gordo]

So what do you think the night meant if it wasn't a suicide attempt? Why did he snap out of his downward spiral when he woke up still souled? He already had Angelus' 145 years of memories of sex with his sire so it wasn't as big a deal as 20 year old Buffy sleeping with a soulless vampire.

What did Angel think would be different in the morning? Why did one night of meaningless sex make him decide not to give up? If Angel knew he could have sex without risking the soul, why did he not point that out amidst all the eunuch jokes?

Well hindsight is 20/20, we know that Angel does, in fact, have an epiphany after sex with Darla but Angel doesn't go into the situation in hopes of having some grand re-awakening. In fact, Angel doesn't seek Darla out at all. He goes back to his room to just be depressed. Darla follows him. Angel has 0 f**ks to give and the way I see it is he just feels sad and empty and depressed and he wants to "feel" something else (see for example Buffy sleeping with Spike - she doesn't do it to gain perspective she does it because she is at her lowest possible low).

I don't think Angel thought anything would be different in the morning, I think he just didn't care. As to why he had an epiphany, I think you underestimate how low Angel had to have felt to have slept with Darla. Darla (the demon) represents Angel's very damnation. She is a soulless demon AND she was the reason/his accomplice to all of the 100 years of evil and scourge he inflicted on this earth. She represents all that he has been fighting against since he regained his soul, she represents (and actually she kinda is based on comics) the essence of his demon nature. That he gives in and sleeps with her is his very lowest point it means giving in to what he has been fighting against. This is what I mean when I talk ad nauseum about how Angel having a soul doesn't mean he has to be good. He can be a monster if he wants. He can give in to his demon nature (think metaphor of toxic masculinity) his urges, desires, etc. Every day that he doesn't give in and more so every day that he makes a conscious decision to fight against evil is a choice he makes. So sleeping with Darla, giving up against that fight, was rock bottom and it makes perfect sense that was a complete and total shock to him and one which could have resulted in his epiphany, reminded him of why he does what he does.

With regards to the eunich jokes, he does deny that he is a eunich. He isn't much of a talker and he isn't the kinda person who wants to get into the specifics of his sex life so he isn't going to create a powerpoint presentation to explain how it's not just about the sex but he says in GWBG - "I'm not a Eunich." Angel knows that the curse is about "perfect happiness" and I can understand him being hesitant to be in a relationship with someone and have sex with them because he doesn't want to test the limits of where that perfect happiness might be (why risk it?). It's probably not going to be Cordy or Nina but he does pause to at least voice concern over both. But it was never going to be with Darla. Angel tells Darla as much in "Dear Boy": "You took me places, showed me things, huh? You blew the top off my head. But you never made me happy."

 

[deathlysmirk]

The age old question 😀😀

 

[DeepBlueJoy]

OK, let me stipulate, I'm Spike all the way in terms of which relationship I think was ultimately the viable, satisfying one with a future and adulthood.

That said, my answer is NEITHER. They both loved her without reservation, and I don't think either would ever stop loving her, no matter what. The relationships were different. Some things fit better and worked better in one than the other. I don't think you can quantify love. Yes, there's a difference between infatuation and attraction and true love... but both passed the true love test IMO.

Angel proved his love by fighting with her even after they weren't a viable relationship anymore and it must have been painful to watch her live life. He also proved it by leaving her (though I don't like the fact he didn't talk to her about it first) - his INTENT was to let her have a life... that is true and sacrificial love. He made a hard, painful choice because he loved her truly. He also gave up his humanity though that would have given them happiness, because he thought being a vampire would allow him better to keep her alive. Second, he was willing to come back and wear the amulet... and potentially die for her -- it was clear he'd have died for her long before this.

Similarly Spike proved his love by a) letting himself be tortured b) trying to save her from dying on the tower c) being willing to let her stay dead and angry others hadn't been, even though her being alive was a source of great happiness... He knew what they did was wrong and called them on the bad magic. d) he got his soul because of his actions - even though no demon of that power wants to saddle himself with guilt and shame. Finally, he too was willing to wear the amulet and die for her.

Both showed true sacrificial love and wanted what was best for Buffy and what made Buffy happy. Both would have died for her in a heartbeat (one did).

But, that last fact is a function of a toss of dice. Buffy could easily have chosen Angel, since he'd offered. She might have trusted Spike more, but either would have died willingly - Angel knew where the amulet came from and he still offered.

So, in my opinion, one cannot quantify either one as loving her more absolutely, though I prefer the relationship with Spike as one that makes Buffy know she's got a stalwart man who loves her utterly and can stand by her side ( after they iron out the crazy of Season 6 and grow trust in season 7).

Post automatically merged: Apr 2, 2018

Oh, and yes, both have their flaws and make huge mistakes. But THAT was NOT the question.

 

[ChaseRules]

I think that a very hard question . They both loved Buffy in their own ways so you cant really say one loved her more then the other .

Now if you asked which one is better for Buffy then as a person who likes Buffy being with Spike more then Angel it easy .
But as for picking who loved her more it a lot more tricky .

 

[Mrs Gordo]

She might have trusted Spike more

Buffy trusted Spike more than Angel? When? Where is the proof of this?

 

[ChaseRules]

Buffy trusted Spike more than Angel? When? Where is the proof of this?

You also have to ask why she wouldn't trust Spike more as well .

 

[DeepBlueJoy]

Buffy trusted Spike more than Angel? When? Where is the proof of this?

when she chose to let him wear the amulet, and chose to have him by her side at the end of it all. That last night, she gained her strength from Spike's presence. NOTHING stopped her from saying 'it's the end of my world, Angel, please stay'. No, she sent him away. Yes, she valued him and always would but she didn't ask him to be there. And way back in season four she told him to get out of her town.

She depends on Spike, she doesn't call on Angel. Repeatedly. In spite of loving Angel, she let go, he let go. They BOTH moved on. To other lives and other people.

And to reiterate my answer to the original question... I don't believe one of them loved her more than the other.

 

[Mrs Gordo]

when she chose to let him wear the amulet, and chose to have him by her side at the end of it all. That last night, she gained her strength from Spike's presence. NOTHING stopped her from saying 'it's the end of my world, Angel, please stay'. No, she sent him away. Yes, she valued him and always would but she didn't ask him to be there.

You can interpret this a number of different ways. But none of them equal to Buffy trusts Spike more than Angel. There is simply no canonical evidence of that. The flip side to your interpretation is that, she sends Angel away precisely because she trusts only him to be able to lead a second front and be able to defeat The First should her plan fail. In fact, this is exactly what stops her from saying "it's the end of my world, Angel, please stay." You see Angel and Buffy belong to the world, fighting. Buffy needs and trusts Angel to take up the fight if she is not able to finish it. That is the biggest show of trust.

It is a big deal that Buffy gives Spike the amulet (although he technically asks for it), but I don't mean to diminish that. I think that her giving him the amulet means that she trusts him to be her lieutenant in this battle and that is a big deal and an important step. But it does not signify that she trusts him more than Angel.

And way back in season four she told him to get out of her town.

Buffy has never told Angel to "get out of her town."

Buffy goes to confront Angel in IWRY about going to Sunnydale in Pangs without telling her. She tells them that because they have feelings for each other its better to keep their distance. Then SHE breaks her own rule and comes to LA when she thinks Faith is coming after Angel. Angel tells her to go home. He feels bad about it and then follows her to Sunnydale and apologizes. They make cute eyes at each other laugh and walk away back to their own lives. Buffy happily receives him in Forever and takes great comfort in his presence.

There is canon and there is fanon.

In spite of loving Angel, she let go, he let go. They BOTH moved on.

Well, they certainly lived their lives apart. They aren't a couple of sad lovesick fools. They have lives to lead and worlds to save etc. But with regards to "letting go" or "moving on" - I disagree, so does Buffy and Angel.

(x)

 

[RomanticSoul]

when she chose to let him wear the amulet, and chose to have him by her side at the end of it all. That last night, she gained her strength from Spike's presence. NOTHING stopped her from saying 'it's the end of my world, Angel, please stay'. No, she sent him away. Yes, she valued him and always would but she didn't ask him to be there.

Or if you see it from another angle, Spike was the lamb of the slaughter. Buffy knew the bling was deadly. She could have given it to Faith, worn it herself, any of the newly activated slayers, Willow or even Dawn (all of these people qualify for the amulet). But she let Spike wear it, probably because he was the least valuable person there. Don't see how anyone can draw a conclusion in terms of trust from that. Sending Angel away is one of the few smart things Buffy did do. She trusted him to pick up the fight should they fail their mission (so she trusts warrior/fighter Angel more than Spike) and since she was of the mind that they could all die, she send him away to live. Which one could interpret as her loving him more than anyone else present.

And way back in season four she told him to get out of her town.

Buffy just had a huge fight with her friends. Her current boyfriend had entered crazy land just knowing Angel exists, never mind what else happened in TYF. Angel being there would only complicate things on all fronts, so Buffy does the smart thing and tells him to leave.

She depends on Spike, she doesn't call on Angel. Repeatedly.

Kinda self-explanatory. Angel is out there doing what Buffy is doing in Sunnydale and that's important. She can depend on Spike because he isn't out there covering another part of the state/country/world. He's a hanger-on and obsessed with his lady of the moment, he ain't going nowhere fighting for the greater good on his own.

 

[DeepBlueJoy]

Or if you see it from another angle, Spike was the lamb of the slaughter. Buffy knew the bling was deadly. She could have given it to Faith, worn it herself, any of the newly activated slayers, Willow or even Dawn (all of these people qualify for the amulet). But she let Spike wear it, probably because he was the least valuable person there. Don't see how anyone can draw a conclusion in terms of trust from that. Sending Angel away is one of the few smart things Buffy did do. She trusted him to pick up the fight should they fail their mission (so she trusts warrior/fighter Angel more than Spike) and since she was of the mind that they could all die, she send him away to live. Which one could interpret as her loving him more than anyone else present.


Buffy just had a huge fight with her friends. Her current boyfriend had entered crazy land just knowing Ange exists, nevermind what else happened in TYF. Angel being there would only complicate things on all fronts, so Buffy does the smart thing and tells him to leave.


Kinda self-explanatory. Angel is out there doing what Buffy is doing in Sunnydale and that's important. She can depend on Spike because he isn't out there covering another part of the state/country/world. He's a hanger-on and obsessed with his lady of the moment, he ain't going nowhere figting for the greater good on his own.

Yeah, he was the least valuable person there (sarcasm). That's why she was on the outs with Giles and didn't think he had anything more to offer her after he tried to off Spike. She actually threatened Wood over Spike. If he'd been so useless, i doubt she would have spent her last night in Sunnydale with him or told him he'd given her the strength she needed the night in the abandoned house. She could have hung with her scoobies or her sister. She. Chose. Spike. Angel was history, yesterday's news. Didn't ask him to come. Didn't ask him to stay. Didn't need him. We don't see her discussing ANYTHING with Angel for YEARS. She doesn't even talk to him on the phone more than a couple times after he leaves. He's not part of her life. She doesn't ask him for help.

If he was so unimportant, why would she be so torn about leaving him in the Hellmouth, that she almost gets swallowed when the town collapses, and has to be forced to leave by Spike.

Your argument has no evidence. It's based on your liking Angel. It's fine to like Angel. I like Angel. But there's no THERE, there. And the comics support this too... Buffy not with Angel. Buffy with Spike.

The only reason it didn't happen before was because she was afraid of what her friends would say b/c Spike didn't have a soul. Then he dealt with that and their relationship healed and grew and became a partnership.

 

[Grace]

The only reason it didn't happen before was because she was afraid of what her friends would say b/c Spike didn't have a soul.

Buffy was the one who cared about Spike not having a soul. She said it over and over. If she really thought it was OK to be with soulless Spike, she would not have cared what her friends thought. Only Xander gave her a hard time about it anyway, and he hated Angel, too, and she didn't not date Angel because Xander disapproved.

 

[DeepBlueJoy]

Buffy was the one who cared about Spike not having a soul. She said it over and over. If she really thought it was OK to be with soulless Spike, she would not have cared what her friends thought. Only Xander gave her a hard time about it anyway, and he hated Angel, too, and she didn't not date Angel because Xander disapproved.

Yes, she did care, and unlike some people who say it doesn't matter, I agree with her. You need a full and complete working conscience and the capacity for moral judgment and a soul is necessary for that. But even knowing it wasn't a great idea, she got together with him anyway. The pull of attraction/connection was strong. She could have slept with someone else. The world has other people.

Once he had a soul, she gave herself permission to openly fight for him, hence her issues with Giles over Spike.