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Who loved Buffy more: Angel or Spike?

Mrs Gordo

Bangel extremist...
Joined
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Black Thorn
She could have hung with her scoobies or her sister.
No, she couldn't. The scoobies and Dawn had kicked her out/or she walked out on them when they wouldn't follow her (based on different interpretations). She is once again, alone, alienated, cut off from all of her support system. She only had Spike.

She. Chose. Spike. Angel was history, yesterday's news.
I must have been watching a totally different series finale because I recall her choosing herself. She was cookie dough, not done baking. It was a great power move for a show that should have always been about MORE than the love interest, but about Buffy herself and her personal growth. Spike is in her heart, so is Angel. Buffy tells him that she does sometimes think that far ahead, implying she thinks of a future with him. But it isn't today. Today is about her. So she chooses herself.

We don't see her discussing ANYTHING with Angel for YEARS.
Except in Forever when she opens up to him, in Flooded when she comes back from the dead and runs to see him, in EoD/Chosen when she opens up to him more than she has opened up to anyone that season. Hell she tells Angel more about her feelings for Spike than she tells Spike.

I know you "like" Angel but you severely underestimate his place in Buffy's life.

And the comics support this too... Buffy not with Angel. Buffy with Spike.
I don't know how much of the comics you have read but your supposition that Buffy and Angel are "so over" is undercut by the Twilight arc in which they actually DO get together. Their being together birthed a universe and causes chaos and destruction on earth. So once again, the story is that Buffy can't have what she wants (to be with Angel) because it means death and destruction to all of those people that she loves.

Either way, Buffy has not chosen Spike over Angel in the comics. There are no impediments to her being with Spike. It won't end the world, it won't break a curse and bring forth an evil demon. Hell Spike can walk around in a hoodie now in the sun and it's no big deal. Until those external forces keeping Buffy from having an opportunity to be with Angel and she chooses Spike over Angel, she has not made a decision. The world has made that choice for her. Which is kind of a bummer.
 

DayDreamer27

Potential
Joined
Feb 11, 2018
Messages
206
No, she couldn't. The scoobies and Dawn had kicked her out/or she walked out on them when they wouldn't follow her (based on different interpretations). She is once again, alone, alienated, cut off from all of her support system. She only had Spike.



I must have been watching a totally different series finale because I recall her choosing herself. She was cookie dough, not done baking. It was a great power move for a show that should have always been about MORE than the love interest, but about Buffy herself and her personal growth. Spike is in her heart, so is Angel. Buffy tells him that she does sometimes think that far ahead, implying she thinks of a future with him. But it isn't today. Today is about her. So she chooses herself.



Except in Forever when she opens up to him, in Flooded when she comes back from the dead and runs to see him, in EoD/Chosen when she opens up to him more than she has opened up to anyone that season. Hell she tells Angel more about her feelings for Spike than she tells Spike.

I know you "like" Angel but you severely underestimate his place in Buffy's life.



I don't know how much of the comics you have read but your supposition that Buffy and Angel are "so over" is undercut by the Twilight arc in which they actually DO get together. Their being together birthed a universe and causes chaos and destruction on earth. So once again, the story is that Buffy can't have what she wants (to be with Angel) because it means death and destruction to all of those people that she loves.

Either way, Buffy has not chosen Spike over Angel in the comics. There are no impediments to her being with Spike. It won't end the world, it won't break a curse and bring forth an evil demon. Hell Spike can walk around in a hoodie now in the sun and it's no big deal. Until those external forces keeping Buffy from having an opportunity to be with Angel and she chooses Spike over Angel, she has not made a decision. The world has made that choice for her. Which is kind of a bummer.
Not to mention Buffy being shown in a Nurse Uniform, and chained to a naked Spike AND Angel. Seems to show Angel is still very much intertwined with her. It's not like she was chained to Spike with a despaired Angel pining for her. lol

She also seemed to show slight discomfort with Dawn hugging Angel, and talking about the crush she remembers having on him. Buffy grabs Dawn's arm, and pulls her away from him.

The comics have not shown that Buffy loves Spike more than Angel, or that she's chosen Spike and sees Angel as history. More than anything, the other Scoobies seem to be the ones pro-Spike and anti-Angel. Buffy is still stuck on the latter.
 

Mrs Gordo

Bangel extremist...
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Black Thorn
She also seemed to show slight discomfort with Dawn hugging Angel, and talking about the crush she remembers having on him. Buffy grabs Dawn's arm, and pulls her away from him.
She looks downright jealous to me. Both her and Xander. Add to this that she protects Angel over Spike in the hall with the demon and her admission to Dawn about how she doesn't know what she feels for him and yeah it's not as simple as some fans would like it to be.

 

RomanticSoul

Frell Me
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Jan 25, 2014
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Germany
Yeah, he was the least valuable person there (sarcasm). That's why she was on the outs with Giles and didn't think he had anything more to offer her after he tried to off Spike. She actually threatened Wood over Spike. If he'd been so useless, i doubt she would have spent her last night in Sunnydale with him or told him he'd given her the strength she needed the night in the abandoned house. She could have hung with her scoobies or her sister. She. Chose. Spike. Angel was history, yesterday's news. Didn't ask him to come. Didn't ask him to stay. Didn't need him. We don't see her discussing ANYTHING with Angel for YEARS. She doesn't even talk to him on the phone more than a couple times after he leaves. He's not part of her life. She doesn't ask him for help.
As someone before me said. Buffy kicked herself out/ was kicked out depending on how you see it. So everyone but Spike was out. And even there, she didn't go looking for him...he came to her. Granted he was gone but still she seemed to be looking for solitude. And considering the grand canyon size gap between them on that bed, she didn't even seem to want physical comfort from him either.

And I never said Spike was useless. Quite the opposite. Just like in S6 Buffy was using him for her own ends. Which makes him useful to her. The Buffy of the later years wasn't able to go through life without a guy holding her up. The Buffy of S5 who decided to be ok with being single took a time out to service Spike and Spuffy, and then out of nowhere came back in Chosen. Where as was said already, she chose herself. So she never chose Spike.

And ignoring canon to make your arguments won't work with people like me, just for the record. Hadn't discussed anything with Angel for years? Ok then. Guess I imagined the part where she did then. Oh no wait, I didn't.

If he was so unimportant, why would she be so torn about leaving him in the Hellmouth, that she almost gets swallowed when the town collapses, and has to be forced to leave by Spike.
Gotta give the lamb a little bit for that huge of a sacrifice. And she did leave him to die alone. If she was so Juliet in love with him, she would have died in the hellmouth with him. Because she couldn't imagine living life without him. Instead she runs off and then smiles 2 minutes later that her life enters a new chapter. And a big part of the baggage is gone (why yes I mean Spike).

Your argument has no evidence. It's based on your liking Angel. It's fine to like Angel. I like Angel.
What evidence do you want? I have to interpret why Buffy does what she does because no definitive explanation is given in some of these cases. And pray tell, what makes my argument wrong and yours right? Because you like Spike and Spike fans= always right? It has nothing to do with liking Angel. It' all about how I interpret canon. Same as you, despite that fact that you throw in way too much fanon for my liking.

But there's no THERE, there. And the comics support this too... Buffy not with Angel. Buffy with Spike

The only reason it didn't happen before was because she was afraid of what her friends would say b/c Spike didn't have a soul. Then he dealt with that and their relationship healed and grew and became a partnership.
The comics as proof for anything....seriously? Where Spike gets retconned into Angel-light until they retcon him AGAIN. Where Buffy of all people says he was GOOD even without a soul, so good in fact he was a better person than her father (not enough WTF in the world for that). Where they steal scenes directly from Bangel. Where her friends of all people turn into Spike fans and shame her for not falling over herself to get with Spike, accusing her of not wanting to be happy. Where she jumps him only because she overheard him saying he wanted to leave. Where they retcon Buffy's previous love life what with her only choosing 'unattainable guys' despite that being BS. I could go on, but asking anyone to accept this utter crap (aka comics) as proof for anything is asking too much.
 
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badsister

Angel's Avenger
Joined
Apr 11, 2018
Messages
416
Well that's not really fair... and in this case it can be pretty um subjective i think. I would love to say they loved her equally but differently but then again s6 comes to mind and that was bad kind of love(possessive obsessive agressive and any other ives you wanna add). But still there's no indication for me who did love her more. And most people will after all speak from the perspective of loving/hating the particular character. For me it's not the amount of love (lol) that counts, but the way Buffy was treated and how that made her feel about herself. And then you know who wins.

And anyway I'm pretty sure the obvious answer is i love buffy more. Buffy/badsister OTP 4 life
 

Soulfrag

Townie
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I've not watched the series enough times to be a judge, but from what I remember, I'd say Spike. He loved her even without a soul and has the character of a passionate romantic. He can be nurturing and tender towards those he loves (not just towards Buffy.) His love for Drusilla was sweet in its own way, and his devotion towards his mother was genuine and real. And who can forget his speech in "Touched"? He's a lover through and through. Angel is self-absorbed and possessive. Spike has the humility and selflessness needed to express true love. The Girl in Question sealed it for me.

 

Mylie

Scooby
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Buffy couldn’t risk Angel but could risk Spike. That’s the only choice she made between the 2 in the finale.

To answer the original question, I honestly don’t know which loved her more. I only know which one Buffy loved more.
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@badsister

It's not even a case of this couldn't happen because he has his own show. Buffy made the active choice of sending him away, literally saying "I can't risk you", while giving the amulet to Spike in the very next scene.

There are things we can explain because Angel has his own show, but when the characters actually voice certain things and make decisions, I don't think it's fair to say that it happened because Angel has his own show. It's still part of their characterization and choices they made. Had Angel turned down Wolfram & Hart's deal like he intended at first and had not been convinced by what happened to Connor/Cordy, his last stance on helping out Sunnydale in their apocalypse would have been "Buffy can take care of herself", not because he has his own show, but because the character made the active choice that she didn't need his help.
 
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badsister
badsister
Ofc she couldn't risk angel when he has his own show hahah

BuffyBot22

Scooby
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I've not watched the series enough times to be a judge, but from what I remember, I'd say Spike. He loved her even without a soul and has the character of a passionate romantic. He can be nurturing and tender towards those he loves (not just towards Buffy.) His love for Drusilla was sweet in its own way, and his devotion towards his mother was genuine and real. And who can forget his speech in "Touched"? He's a lover through and through. Angel is self-absorbed and possessive. Spike has the humility and selflessness needed to express true love. The Girl in Question sealed it for me.

I very much disagree about Spike loving her without a soul, but that's something I have voiced quite a bit on here and something I'm sure we won't agree on.
But, I do have to know how you think Angel's love for her was possessive?
If anything he loved her very selflessly, always putting her life above his.
Spike, IMO is the one who loved her possessively and obsessively (the only love he knew how to do without a soul). But I still think he loved her obsessively in s7 as well. For him, I feel like it was about achieving the slayer and making her love him. It was never about the girl Buffy.
For Angel, it was always about the girl. He would have loved her even if she wasn't a badass slayer. I doubt Spike would feel the same way.
 

RachM

I'm busy. I'm brooding.
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I'm sorry but whoever has added this caption is so off base, as if Angel would ever react to Buffy loving someone else in this manner.

Yes, Angel has been jealous of Buffy's other love interests in the past. But to imply that he truly believes that Buffy could only ever love him goes against his entire character. Angel has never felt that he deserves Buffy's love or that he is worthy of a life with her, this is a major obstacle in their relationship and the reason that he leaves at the end of Season 3. He would never react to hearing Buffy loved someone else this way, he has never been someone who felt entitled to Buffy's love or believed that she wouldn't love others. Hell, the whole point of him leaving her was so that she would be able to love someone else. Whoever attached this caption is clearly projecting their own anti-Bangel/Angel feelings onto Angel.

The Girl In Question is a ridiculous episode in general, Angel is very OOC in it and it pits Angel and Spike against one another (with Buffy as the prize) in the most ridiculous and immature manner.
 

Mrs Gordo

Bangel extremist...
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Angel is self-absorbed and possessive
Surely this is a typo right? Surely you mean Spike is self-absorbed and possessive. You know the same guy who kidnapped Buffy, chained her up and griped at how difficult it is to be in love with her, and when she plainly told him he had no shot said: "Why ... do you bitches torture me?" (as she is chained up... in his crypt). Or when he made a robot so he could quite literally try and possess her in the only way possible. The same guy who wouldn't believe Buffy when she repeatedly told him that she didn't love him in s6? When his desire to possess her drove him to sexual assault. I'm bringing up soulless Spike because you make the argument that he loved her without a soul. But ensouled Spike has his moments of being self-absorbed too. Especially - Never Leave Me.

I'm not sure how Angel can be categorized as possessive when he literally left her so she could find someone else. And then let her walk away again at IWRY when her life would've been at stake if they stayed together. And walked away again at her request in Chosen when she told him she was baking. It seems a little bit like the complete opposite. Although I will agree with you that Angel does get jealous where Buffy is concerned. I'm not sure that is possessiveness as much as sadness he feels at knowing that they can't be together because of Le Curse.
 

badsister

Angel's Avenger
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Apr 11, 2018
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416
@Mylie it was a joke. But i agree. And thank god she did that cause angel as a ghost wouldn't work haha
 
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WillowFromBuffy

Guest
I can't get over how 'fanon-y' that caption is, and yet its presented like its some kind of definite proof lol
Would a sign that Buffy's feelings for him were genuine make Spike happy? Yes!
Does the idea that Buffy loves Spike bother Angel? Yes!

We know this already! I don't see why it should be controversial.
 

thetopher

Member of the Church Of Faith
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Sineya
Would a sign that Buffy's feelings for him were genuine make Spike happy? Yes!
Does the idea that Buffy loves Spike bother Angel? Yes!
Is Andrew a reliable source for relating Buffy's feeling to them? No!
And- by this point- I think that Angel has accepted- to some extent- that Buffy and Spike had a 'something'. It's more about him disliking Spike than anything to do with Buffy herself.

Of the two vampires who is the more possessive? The quote would have us believe that Angel is, even though he's the one who tries to move on. Spike is the one with the entitlement problem.
 
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WillowFromBuffy

Guest
Is Andrew a reliable source for relating Buffy's feeling to them? No!
No, but Spike did not believe Buffy when she told him she loved him, so it would be nice to hear someone else, even Andrew, state that Buffy's feelings were genuine. Angel's knowledge about Spike and Buffy's relationship comes from Buffy's non-committal description of it and Spike's bragging. Andrew is a neutral eye witness.
The quote would have us believe that Angel is, even though he's the one who tries to move on.
I don't see that. To me, all the quote implies is that Angel is the only one who was confident Buffy loved him. We know Angel isn't a Spuffy fan, and he has good reason not to be.
 

thetopher

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Sineya
No, but Spike did not believe Buffy when she told him she loved him, so it would be nice to hear someone else, even Andrew, state that Buffy's feelings were genuine.
If Spike didn't believe Buffy- and given Spike's view of love then its understandable why he wouldn't- then I can't see why he'd believe Andrew, who he knows has a tenuous grasp on reality and the truth.
Eh, I guess maybe he's desperate to get thrown a bone (*insert Spangel joke here*)

I don't see that. To me, all the quote implies is that Angel is the only one who was confident Buffy loved him.
The quote is saying that Angel can't handle anyone else loving Buffy, that he and he alone must love her for him to be happy in his solitude. And yet he was happy enough to let her move on with Riley without any interferance; Buffy and a mortal is going to be more of a 'threat' than Buffy/other vampire.

In that case the problem isn't Buffy/someone else, the problem is Buffy/Spike. Like you say that isn't possessive, that's just...common sense.
 

EarthLogic

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Black Thorn
If Spike didn't believe Buffy- and given Spike's view of love then its understandable why he wouldn't- then I can't see why he'd believe Andrew, who he knows has a tenuous grasp on reality and the truth.
Yes, what I find baffling is that either of them would even believe that Andrew would be party to any of Buffy's feelings about her boyfriends. They should both know that Buffy is very guarded about her innermost feelings, especially when it comes to relationships, so to reveal them to Andrew of all people is very unlikely. Spike at least, having been the one to actually know Andrew from before, should have been suspicious. But I guess this was one of the lesser evils of OOC writing in an episode chock full of 'em.
 
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