Why didn't Buffy stake Spike in 'Beneath You'?

He only included mad-god Angel, so I supposed he was talking about people she'd had an interest in post season 7, a time when they could have been together.

He's thinking about his time at W&H, seeing Angel with Nina and Eve. He doesn't know about Angel and Buffy's one day together. This is of course all from Spike's pov and he believes that if Buffy had wanted a relationship Angel would have tried.

I don't think Spike is slut shaming Buffy. He's not talking about sex, he's talking about emotion, about being close to someone that is other than him, then on a whim she turns to him.
I think he's especially not slut shaming when he doesn't seem the least bit bothered about Satsu - it's like shrug we've all experimented at some time.

Thankfully even Buffy realizes this sometime between Season 11 and 12 which is why she and Spike break up (so monumentally important was this relationship that they didn't even bother showing us!). It's pretty much canon now that Buffy realizes that her dating vampires leads nowhere good.
I mean, it took her 14 years but she finally caught on.

Tbh the comics do very few of the characters favors; when you contrive to write for the fans then not only will you get bad plots, you'll get poor characterization.
So you're saying you know what the comics are showing but they do characterisation really poorly. We're never really given an explanation why Spuffy breaks up but of course you know! But hey they matter there but they don't mostly because they do ALL the characters and that's NOT having your cake and eating it too how exactly?!
 
Thankfully even Buffy realizes this sometime between Season 11 and 12 which is why she and Spike break up (so monumentally important was this relationship that they didn't even bother showing us!). It's pretty much canon now that Buffy realizes that her dating vampires leads nowhere good.
I mean, it took her 14 years but she finally caught on.

Tbh the comics do very few of the characters favors; when you contrive to write for the fans then not only will you get bad plots, you'll get poor characterization.
Totally agree, I largely find the comics very weird fanservice and Buffy stops feeling like her own person. S12 is actually the most tolerable of all the seasons for me because they seem to actually recognise Buffy as a character within her own right and not just Spikes girlfriend. Buffy is not the only character that suffers in the comics of course, I think Angel probably gets the worst treatment. They didn’t do their titular characters many favours 😂
 
thetopher
thetopher
Exactly. You get it! :)
So you're saying you know what the comics are showing but they do characterisation really poorly.

For the most part and for most of the characters, yes. Some characters and seasons are worse than others. At least S12 is trying to wrap everything up with some character resolution. A key part of Buffy's final character resolution is NOT being with Spike romantically. Huzzah, she's maturing!! 😀

We're never really given an explanation why Spuffy breaks up but of course you know!

Because Buffy tells us! She literally just says it. Which is effing poor characterization if you just have characters SAY and speechify at each other!!
Show don't tell.

But hey they matter there but they don't mostly because they do ALL the characters

Uh, what?

Btw if its my cake and I get to have then I also get to eat it. It's my cake lol.
That's a crappy saying that needs to stop being used. It makes zero sense.
 
I meant this is how the story constantly has to do to make Spuffy make. Buffy has to be miserable, she has to be cut off from her friends. Spike has to be the ONLY person apparently there for her. It’s just nauseating to me

You could argue that in S6 which is specifically exploring a toxic relationship, but that is not what is happening in S7. S7 is a corrective to S6. Beyond that, Buffy starts engaging with Spike from the very beginning of the season long before any misery sets in. She's not isolated from her friends in the way she was in S6 and she's not even 'cut off' from them until Empty Places (which is episode 19) and even then it's for less than 24 hours. Spike and Buffy were already involved with each other by that point mostly because of active choices Buffy herself made.

As for you finding it 'nauseating' that's totally fair.

I will say I find the comics genuinely insulting to the Buffyverse though and I also include the multiple crazy excuses Buffy gives about the AR such as ‘well I’ve had worse things happen to me…. Like my Mother and Father separating’

This is what I assume you're referring to:

Spike: Slayer, listen. About what happened...
Buffy: Okay, stop right there. Just stop. You're about to launch into some overwrought speech about how sorry and how horrible you are, like you're apologizing, but you're really making it all about you. Right?
Spike: ...
Buffy: Spike, listen. We have been over this. More than once. But something bad happened to me. A lot of bad things have happened to me. Dying. Losing my mom. My dad basically disowning me. All the above still affect me more than what your old... More than you attacking me. But sometimes that moment comes back to me, too. Like all the other stuff. It's part of who I am. Comes with the package. The only way it's a problem is if you expect me to reassure you it's ok every time. 'Cause I need to be able to deal with it myself. My way.
Spike: I'd... like to help, if I can. Just ain't sure how.
Buffy: You could try asking. It's gonna be different each time. Sometimes I might want you to go away without you getting all victim-y about it. Just give me space.
Spike: Right. Perfectly understandable. I'll just- (makes to leave)
Buffy: (hugging him) And sometimes I could use one of these.

Whether or not this exchange is 'insulting' is a matter of opinion. Either way, it's not nearly as careless or dismissive as you've suggested.

Honestly reading that thread I found a lot of the responses kind of scary. Like ‘aww isn’t it so sweeet Buffy is weakening herself for Spike’ NO why should she have to? Why is Buffy still having to make these f***ed up decisions for her vampire boyfriends. It’s insanely unhealthy for her. Reading through that thread reminds me that actually maybes it isn’t portrayed as healthy but there’s actually a lot of abusive language used such as Buffy having to do it and weaken herself to keep her boyfriend calm, Spike then having to say it’ll be the last time. Buffy having to push Spike off her before it goes too far. It actually highlights how insanely f***ed up Spuffy will always be. Thanks for reminding me of thag though 😉 it highlights why I always feel a vampire relationship endgame for Buffy would be incredibly bleak and I want better for her than that

She doesn't have to, she chooses to. Dating a vampire is going to come with having to make f*cked up decisions - being The Slayer is going to come with having to make f*cked up decisions - only one of those is something she's actively chosen for herself. I didn't refer you to that thread as some kind of Spuffy gotcha btw. I genuinely don't care what people ship, it's none of my business, but I do care about misrepresentation and my purpose with linking to that discussion was to point out that your statement re: that plot point being presented as 'healthy' or not messed up wasn't true, but ya know, if it helped you out, you're welcome.
 
Btw if its my cake and I get to have then I also get to eat it. It's my cake lol.
That's a crappy saying that needs to stop being used. It makes zero sense.

It actually works, but only because it's using have in the "keep" sense. You can keep your cake or you can eat it. But once you eat your cake you no longer have it.
 
You can keep your cake or you can eat it. But once you eat your cake you no longer have it.

Oh. But again this seems dumb; why else have a cake if not to enjoy eating the cake? I guess you could selflessly give the cake to somebody else to enjoy and then it would be their cake.
But then 'you can't have your cake and give it to somebody else' doesn't have a great ring to it.
 
Btw if its my cake and I get to have then I also get to eat it. It's my cake lol.

@thetopher and his cake:

giphy-3-1.gif


😛
 
@thetopher can enjoy his cake while Spike is eating Buffy's cookies.

So can Spike eat his cookies AND keep his cookies? If so then what's the metaphysical difference between cake and cookies? If you eat cookies do then then magically reappear afterwards? *confused and enraged why this has never happened with his cookies*
 
So can Spike eat his cookies AND keep his cookies? If so then what's the metaphysical difference between cake and cookies? If you eat cookies do then then magically reappear afterwards? *confused and enraged why this has never happened with his cookies*
Maybe you just ain't very good at eating cookies
 
Yes, in theory this is correct; forgiveness can be hard and a profoundly brave thing to do...but you need to show it, the process, the push and pull of conflicting emotions; to wanting to over the fear of. We JUST don't get that here, partly because the season is too crowded and things happen so quickly but also partly because, again, that's not the story the writers wanted to tell.

I agree the season is crowded and the pacing is weird, but I mean… it is shown – perhaps not to your satisfaction, which is fair, but there is an actual emotional journey that is going on that extends through the whole season - it doesn't get wrapped up in a handful of episodes. If you're taking the stance that everything is forgiven end of story re: the sexual assault by episode 6 (Him) for Buffy I can absolutely see why you'd think it happens too quickly, but the real resolution of everything that happened between her and Spike doesn't actually occur until episode 20 (Touched). No, it's not the story it seems maybe you and some others understandably wanted or maybe thought it should be of "a survivor of sexual assault revenging herself on her attacker"(and it's not for a number of reasons), but it's not just a story about 'the attacker's journey of redemption' either.

The sexual assault is just one part of what needs to be resolved by series end - Buffy is also still carrying feelings of guilt about her own behavior during their relationship (I don't think they would have had her bring it up in Conversations With Dead People if it wasn't something that was still lingering). She also has the bigger issues of her inability to 'connect' with people and feelings of isolation which have come up before in prior seasons. All of this gets resolved by series end and Spike plays a not insignificant part in that. Buffy being willing and able to connect with him in Touched, which she would not have been able to do without going through everything she did with him in S7, allows her to literally connect with the girls she's been keeping at arms length which not only saves the day, but also means she is no longer isolated because of being The Slayer. His story of redemption and her story of becoming Buffy and The Slayer - not separate conflicting identities but one whole person - are intertwined and have been for a while, and if you accept that Spike is a Shadow Self, Buffy connecting with and thereby accepting him becomes a full acceptance of herself - the light and the dark, the good and the bad. Ultimately, the S7 Buffy/Spike arc is a love story (whether romantic love or not is up for grabs) and I absolutely understand why some folks don't want that or even outright reject it in light of S6, or just Spike in general, but that is what it is, and if you are rejecting it (universal you) your read on it is probably going to be a bit skewed.

Do we really see her hesitation at all? In the first episode Spike lurches out of the dark and touches her face and...Buffy is just kinda confused, not shocked or angry or triggered by the sudden appearance of her attacker; its all 'oh, he's crazy and is covered in big scratches, how intriguing'.

In the first episode when Buffy encounters him, she’s in Slayer-Mode fighting ‘manifest spirits’ – she’s not even convinced Spike is real at first. The fact that he appears suddenly while she’s fighting actual ghosts is important. And he doesn’t lurch out of the dark and touch her face, he opens the door she was attempting to open from the other side and he’s suddenly just there. He reaches out to touch her in response to her question of “Are you real?” bc he’s not sure she is and once it’s confirmed he drops his hand – there is nothing aggressive or sexual in his touch – it is brief and strange enough that she actually looks at his hand not any less confused. She gets hit immediately after the exchange/is reminded that the fight is still on, and is all business when she closes them into the room bc it’s not about her or Spike right now, it’s about finding Dawn. He continues acting weird as hell to a degree he is nearly unrecognizable and so she investigates (even as he is backing away from her) and is fairly gentle about it all things considered, but again, he’s not being aggressive and appears to be in distress. She still immediately focuses back on Dawn when she calls and snaps right back into Slayer-mode to the extent that she asks him if he's going to help out because that's usually what he does especially when it comes to Dawn, and when he jumps right back into the WTFery instead she leaves him mumbling into a wall, clearly disturbed and not knowing what to make of his behavior. It's possible (and I think likely) she's still not 100% convinced that it really is him as the manifest spirits were corporeal as well and she even says to Dawn before she cuts her off "Yes, I saw Spike - I just didn't-" - that sentence could easily have ended with "think he was real."

She has a different reaction to him entirely when he suddenly shows up at her house because, despite the shirt which is like a giant neon (blue) sign that something is out of sorts, he is at least recognizably Spike. Her defenses are absolutely up, and she is not giving him an inch until he starts to leave. She stops him and decides to take him up on his offer of help. Maybe bc she thinks she could use it, maybe bc she needs some kind of closure, most likely both, but either way the message is clear that she has not forgiven or forgotten. She is suspicious and on her guard the whole time they’re investigating bc his explanation for his behaviour in the basement is not ringing true and that’s bc, yeah, he feels off. Which he absolutely does if you pay attention to how weirdly measured he his from the minute he shows up.

It's only the next episode- with a different writer- that the even bother to show Buffy having any kind of reaction to Spike touching her. And again its just 'you're not telling me everything Spike....' wow, what a profound non-event to be confronted by the man who tried to rape you mere months ago. No struggle or hesitation, her friends are more anxious that Buffy is.

She’s threat assessing and she knows she can take him if he tries anything - she literally says so when Xander expresses his concern. She’s not in the (*cough*insultinglycontrived*cough*) position she was in when the assault took place, and if she didn’t trust him before (which I personally think she did to a degree) she really doesn’t now. She flinches this time bc it’s a recognizable Spike who touches her, not a ghost, not a strange, disheveled version that’s not making any sense. She says outright, “You tried to rape me,” which I think she’s been wanting to do. I think she wants what happened acknowledged. I think it's why she didn't tell him to GTFO the second he showed up and why she decided on splitting them up into pairs and pairing herself with him (which even he looks surprised by in the cut to him). And again, his response is weird. Old Spike, imo at least, would have been all about the excuses or something to relieve him of actual culpability in some way - even do the whole "what did you expect, I’m evilthing – but what he actually does is acknowledge there’s nothing he can say that would help or make it better, and he’s right. I totally buy her suspicion. I would absolutely believe he was working some kind of angle too at this point whether it be about trying to get back into her good graces so they could start up again (which is her first assumption) or something more sinister because, again, he is acting weird. "You're not telling me everything" is her saying she's not buying what he's selling and that she doesn't trust him. I honestly don't know what you're looking for from Buffy here? She's a champion compartmentalizer and she's not big with the expressing of her emotions. Her behavior rings 100% true to me. She doesn't attack unless she's being given reason to and she's not motivated by revenge. It's just not who she is.

And after the episode, when the truth is revealed, they barely interact until 'come out of the basement', 'are you killing again, Spike', 'I believe in you Spike because you fought against your monster...' blah, blah, yawn.

They don’t ‘barely interact’, they have scenes in every single episode: in 3 (the very next one) we find out she ran away and left him at the church because he “scared her a little” and she “didn’t know what to think”. In 4, she goes to the basement and asks him about Cassie. She’s not as gentle with him as she was last time because (compartmentalizing) she’s in Slayer-Mode and her tone softens (slightly) only when he starts to ‘punish’ himself as he conflates Cassie with herself. Even so, when he asks her to stay and help him ‘be quiet’ she doesn’t. In 5 we get the First-as-Buffy/Real-Buffy switcheroo and the difference between them is stark both in appearance and tone and this (episode 5) is when she tells him to get out of the basement, sounding pretty fed up and the scene ends with him saying he doesn’t have anywhere else to go, which launches the next phase of Their Whole S7 Thing where Buffy decides to and actively does help him.

In episode 6, the start of the next phase, Buffy is at her most gentle towards him (and I believe it’s bc of the episode 4 exchange and then 5’s understanding that he’s not just staying in the basement for the lolz and dramz, he literally does not have a home anymore) but she does still flinch when he touches her. The show is telling us she’s not past it even if she does seem to forgive him by this episode, and, as a side-note, while I completely understand if some folks have a problem with her convo with Dawn, or feel that her response of "he knows what he did was wrong" is inadequate or sweeping the whole thing under the rug, I really think it’s worth listening to the Still Pretty podcast episode on Seeing Red to understand where she may be coming from.

This is what Buffy says in the exchange in the basement:

Buffy: Listen to me. You’re not alive because of hate or pain, you’re alive because I saw you change. Because I saw your penance*-
Spike: Window dressing.
Buffy: Be easier, wouldn’t it, if it were an act. But it’s not. You faced the monster inside of you and you fought back**. You risked everything to be a better man–
Spike: Buffy-
Buffy: -and you can be. You are. You may not see it, but I do. I do. I believe in you Spike.

*The draping of himself on the cross in Beneath You, the self-punishment in Help, the general non-stop self-flagellation going on in the basement every time she goes to him there which she chooses to do.
**The going and getting of the Soul, the basement when he tasted her blood but stopped himself from feeding on/killing her even though he was being influenced.

Imo, this scene marks the point where Buffy decides not just to help him but to be on his side. This is where she accepts him as one of Her People and it culminates in her rescue of him which takes place in episode 11 which is the halfway point of the season. Even when she was involved with Spike previously, she was never on his side. I feel the need to note she does flinch in this scene as well even though he is chained.

It actually only really works if Buffy is blindly projecting onto Spike because she needs to believe that the soul is a good thing and not a burden-because she has been told over and over that she is the cause of it- at least that would give Buffy some skin in the game, some investment, some effort. Unfortunately that's probably just projection.

But she knows it is a burden because of Angel. She also believes it’s a ‘good thing’ because of Angel/Angelus. If the soul doesn't matter and it is always the same person no matter what... that is a huge thing to contend with in the context of what happened between her and Angel. I absolutely believe Buffy feels guilt over what Spike chose to do (which, Buffy. Baby. Babes. No.) but I think Angel is a stronger motivation for her to argue clean slate theory when Spike is clearly rejecting it, but at the same time, I absolutely believe her when she says she sees that he is different. I see that he is. His entire vibe is different imo - it's not just what he says or does it's how he says and does it. There's a heaviness there, a weight that OG Spike never carried. Also, if he didn't have a soul he wouldn't be penitent, he wouldn't be as destroyed as he is by what he's done. I tend to lean Buffy in terms of the soul being important myself, but I don't subscribe at all to the Angel/Angelus model of vampirism which Buffy seems to need to do. At any rate, the things she says to him in that scene she truly believes for whatever reasons she has, and they matter to her.

Buffy does come to some conclusions about her love life, but those realizations are almost entirely seperate from her relationship with Spike, and she shares her most intimate thoughts with Holden and Angel, never Spike.

Except… the only relationship she directly talks about/references in any significant way (apart from her parents') is her relationship with Spike:
  • “The last guy I was with got really… I behaved like a monster… treated him like… but at the same time I… I let him completely take me over. Do things to me that…” (the thought is cut short by Holden attacking.)
  • “See this is what I hate about you vampires - sex and death and love and pain it’s all the same thing to you…” (yeah, and it specifically is to Spike in particular. He has always fully owned this.)
  • “The joke is he loved me. In his own sick soulless way, he really did care for me. But I didn’t want to be loved. I have all this power. I didn’t ask for it. I don’t deserve it. It was like I wanted to be punished. I wanted to hurt like I thought I deserved… I sorta think… - this is complicated – if you’d rather just fight…”
  • “That stuff with Spike, it’s pretty-” (and that’s when Holden identifies Spike as his sire which he wouldn’t have been able to do if they hadn’t been talking about him specifically)
Buffy is sharing her ‘intimate thoughts’ with Psych Major Holden because 'there are some things you can only tell a stranger' and he guided that conversation. She shares with Angel because he was her lover and they went through something traumatic together. They have a bond. She also has a bond with Spike which is solidified by the end of the season, and she does share her intimate thoughts with him. Next time you watch Touched pay attention to the first half of that bedroom scene, because it’s not just Spike talking at her. Even before then, she confides in him in After Life and Life Serial in a way she doesn't with anyone else. I think the bigger thing to note is that Buffy seems to have less difficulty opening up to vampires than she does her own friends.

I'll agree that Buffy takes Spike out of the basement, which isn't exactly a chore now, is it?

She had to convince Xander who hates Spike more than anyone to share his home with him. Also, it sounds like the car ride was a hoot, but ok.

She investigates Spike because of what Holden said, which has not one thing to do with Buffy and Spike's relationship; she's just wondering if he's killing people or not.

She’s not just idly wondering, it’s personally important to her whether he is or not. Look at her face after she dusts Holden. Watch that scene between her and Xander again or even her and Willow - She doesn’t want it to be true. Xander literally says this, and she doesn’t deny it. She hasn’t had any reason to investigate him before getting that tidbit from Holden – why would she, he still has a chip, she believes him that he has a soul.

And again, she just 'feels' that there's something more going on and the very next episode she's proclaiming that Spike 'fought to be a better man'.

She’s the Slayer. And she was right. Like she was right about the Scythe. And Kathy. And any number of things over the course of the series. Her intuition isn’t something that was just brought up out of nowhere.

And he did literally fight to be a better man. That's not something she intuited, he told her about the trials, the torture.

I see no doubt, no struggle, no journey on Buffy's part regarding either the trauma Spike inflicted on her or him forcing his way back into her life.

As I noted at the top, Buffy's forgiveness may verbally be confirmed in episode 6, but what happened in that bathroom does not come to any kind of resolution until the bedroom scene in Touched, which is a direct response to Seeing Red and occurs almost exactly a year later. Imo, that's when true forgiveness is achieved and it takes nearly the whole season to get there and it makes the final moment between them possible. That's the journey. Buffy does struggle, she is unsure, she does have doubts, and when some of them start to be eased they creep back in in another way and yet she still decides to invest in him despite the danger and there is danger with him being able to be triggered, there is danger with not knowing what the First ultimately has planned. In the midst of training for the biggest battle of her life she's also navigating how she feels about him and over and over again can not articulate it beyond "I feel for him" until that last moment. That is the journey. S7 is a love story. The last two lines Buffy has in the season are "I love you" and "Spike". Not "I forgive you" and "Spike." Forgiveness was a stepping stone to getting to that last moment. It's 100% open to interpretation what kind of love it is, if it's romantic or otherwise, but that is where the S7 Buffy and Spike arc comes to rest.

Spike does not force himself back into her life. He comes to her home once to offer his services (after she finds him in the basement) and then appears suddenly to fight beside her in the library to save Cassie (after she goes to him in the basement to ask him about her). He does not attempt to leave the school until she tells him to. He tries to go when she installs him at Xander’s and he thinks it won’t work, he tells her to kill him when he finds out he’s being controlled, he says again he should go when they find out The First still has a plan for him. Over and over again she is either coming to him or stopping him from going. It’s in the text. Buffy is not remotely passive in this story just because she listens to two speeches on opposite ends of the season, and Spike is not forcing himself into her life by existing in the same town.

If you want to see Buffy actively struggle with her complex feelings for a vampire I would direct you to Season 3, not Season 7

giphy.gif
 
I agree the season is crowded and the pacing is weird, but I mean… it is shown – perhaps not to your satisfaction, which is fair, but there is an actual emotional journey that is going on that extends through the whole season - it doesn't get wrapped up in a handful of episodes. If you're taking the stance that everything is forgiven end of story re: the sexual assault by episode 6 (Him) for Buffy I can absolutely see why you'd think it happens too quickly, but the real resolution of everything that happened between her and Spike doesn't actually occur until episode 20 (Touched). No, it's not the story it seems maybe you and some others understandably wanted or maybe thought it should be of "a survivor of sexual assault revenging herself on her attacker"(and it's not for a number of reasons), but it's not just a story about 'the attacker's journey of redemption' either.

The sexual assault is just one part of what needs to be resolved by series end - Buffy is also still carrying feelings of guilt about her own behavior during their relationship (I don't think they would have had her bring it up in Conversations With Dead People if it wasn't something that was still lingering). She also has the bigger issues of her inability to 'connect' with people and feelings of isolation which have come up before in prior seasons. All of this gets resolved by series end and Spike plays a not insignificant part in that. Buffy being willing and able to connect with him in Touched, which she would not have been able to do without going through everything she did with him in S7, allows her to literally connect with the girls she's been keeping at arms length which not only saves the day, but also means she is no longer isolated because of being The Slayer. His story of redemption and her story of becoming Buffy and The Slayer - not separate conflicting identities but one whole person - are intertwined and have been for a while, and if you accept that Spike is a Shadow Self, Buffy connecting with and thereby accepting him becomes a full acceptance of herself - the light and the dark, the good and the bad. Ultimately, the S7 Buffy/Spike arc is a love story (whether romantic love or not is up for grabs) and I absolutely understand why some folks don't want that or even outright reject it in light of S6, or just Spike in general, but that is what it is, and if you are rejecting it (universal you) your read on it is probably going to be a bit skewed.



In the first episode when Buffy encounters him, she’s in Slayer-Mode fighting ‘manifest spirits’ – she’s not even convinced Spike is real at first. The fact that he appears suddenly while she’s fighting actual ghosts is important. And he doesn’t lurch out of the dark and touch her face, he opens the door she was attempting to open from the other side and he’s suddenly just there. He reaches out to touch her in response to her question of “Are you real?” bc he’s not sure she is and once it’s confirmed he drops his hand – there is nothing aggressive or sexual in his touch – it is brief and strange enough that she actually looks at his hand not any less confused. She gets hit immediately after the exchange/is reminded that the fight is still on, and is all business when she closes them into the room bc it’s not about her or Spike right now, it’s about finding Dawn. He continues acting weird as hell to a degree he is nearly unrecognizable and so she investigates (even as he is backing away from her) and is fairly gentle about it all things considered, but again, he’s not being aggressive and appears to be in distress. She still immediately focuses back on Dawn when she calls and snaps right back into Slayer-mode to the extent that she asks him if he's going to help out because that's usually what he does especially when it comes to Dawn, and when he jumps right back into the WTFery instead she leaves him mumbling into a wall, clearly disturbed and not knowing what to make of his behavior. It's possible (and I think likely) she's still not 100% convinced that it really is him as the manifest spirits were corporeal as well and she even says to Dawn before she cuts her off "Yes, I saw Spike - I just didn't-" - that sentence could easily have ended with "think he was real."

She has a different reaction to him entirely when he suddenly shows up at her house because, despite the shirt which is like a giant neon (blue) sign that something is out of sorts, he is at least recognizably Spike. Her defenses are absolutely up, and she is not giving him an inch until he starts to leave. She stops him and decides to take him up on his offer of help. Maybe bc she thinks she could use it, maybe bc she needs some kind of closure, most likely both, but either way the message is clear that she has not forgiven or forgotten. She is suspicious and on her guard the whole time they’re investigating bc his explanation for his behaviour in the basement is not ringing true and that’s bc, yeah, he feels off. Which he absolutely does if you pay attention to how weirdly measured he his from the minute he shows up.



She’s threat assessing and she knows she can take him if he tries anything - she literally says so when Xander expresses his concern. She’s not in the (*cough*insultinglycontrived*cough*) position she was in when the assault took place, and if she didn’t trust him before (which I personally think she did to a degree) she really doesn’t now. She flinches this time bc it’s a recognizable Spike who touches her, not a ghost, not a strange, disheveled version that’s not making any sense. She says outright, “You tried to rape me,” which I think she’s been wanting to do. I think she wants what happened acknowledged. I think it's why she didn't tell him to GTFO the second he showed up and why she decided on splitting them up into pairs and pairing herself with him (which even he looks surprised by in the cut to him). And again, his response is weird. Old Spike, imo at least, would have been all about the excuses or something to relieve him of actual culpability in some way - even do the whole "what did you expect, I’m evilthing – but what he actually does is acknowledge there’s nothing he can say that would help or make it better, and he’s right. I totally buy her suspicion. I would absolutely believe he was working some kind of angle too at this point whether it be about trying to get back into her good graces so they could start up again (which is her first assumption) or something more sinister because, again, he is acting weird. "You're not telling me everything" is her saying she's not buying what he's selling and that she doesn't trust him. I honestly don't know what you're looking for from Buffy here? She's a champion compartmentalizer and she's not big with the expressing of her emotions. Her behavior rings 100% true to me. She doesn't attack unless she's being given reason to and she's not motivated by revenge. It's just not who she is.



They don’t ‘barely interact’, they have scenes in every single episode: in 3 (the very next one) we find out she ran away and left him at the church because he “scared her a little” and she “didn’t know what to think”. In 4, she goes to the basement and asks him about Cassie. She’s not as gentle with him as she was last time because (compartmentalizing) she’s in Slayer-Mode and her tone softens (slightly) only when he starts to ‘punish’ himself as he conflates Cassie with herself. Even so, when he asks her to stay and help him ‘be quiet’ she doesn’t. In 5 we get the First-as-Buffy/Real-Buffy switcheroo and the difference between them is stark both in appearance and tone and this (episode 5) is when she tells him to get out of the basement, sounding pretty fed up and the scene ends with him saying he doesn’t have anywhere else to go, which launches the next phase of Their Whole S7 Thing where Buffy decides to and actively does help him.

In episode 6, the start of the next phase, Buffy is at her most gentle towards him (and I believe it’s bc of the episode 4 exchange and then 5’s understanding that he’s not just staying in the basement for the lolz and dramz, he literally does not have a home anymore) but she does still flinch when he touches her. The show is telling us she’s not past it even if she does seem to forgive him by this episode, and, as a side-note, while I completely understand if some folks have a problem with her convo with Dawn, or feel that her response of "he knows what he did was wrong" is inadequate or sweeping the whole thing under the rug, I really think it’s worth listening to the Still Pretty podcast episode on Seeing Red to understand where she may be coming from.

This is what Buffy says in the exchange in the basement:

Buffy: Listen to me. You’re not alive because of hate or pain, you’re alive because I saw you change. Because I saw your penance*-
Spike: Window dressing.
Buffy: Be easier, wouldn’t it, if it were an act. But it’s not. You faced the monster inside of you and you fought back**. You risked everything to be a better man–
Spike: Buffy-
Buffy: -and you can be. You are. You may not see it, but I do. I do. I believe in you Spike.

*The draping of himself on the cross in Beneath You, the self-punishment in Help, the general non-stop self-flagellation going on in the basement every time she goes to him there which she chooses to do.
**The going and getting of the Soul, the basement when he tasted her blood but stopped himself from feeding on/killing her even though he was being influenced.

Imo, this scene marks the point where Buffy decides not just to help him but to be on his side. This is where she accepts him as one of Her People and it culminates in her rescue of him which takes place in episode 11 which is the halfway point of the season. Even when she was involved with Spike previously, she was never on his side. I feel the need to note she does flinch in this scene as well even though he is chained.



But she knows it is a burden because of Angel. She also believes it’s a ‘good thing’ because of Angel/Angelus. If the soul doesn't matter and it is always the same person no matter what... that is a huge thing to contend with in the context of what happened between her and Angel. I absolutely believe Buffy feels guilt over what Spike chose to do (which, Buffy. Baby. Babes. No.) but I think Angel is a stronger motivation for her to argue clean slate theory when Spike is clearly rejecting it, but at the same time, I absolutely believe her when she says she sees that he is different. I see that he is. His entire vibe is different imo - it's not just what he says or does it's how he says and does it. There's a heaviness there, a weight that OG Spike never carried. Also, if he didn't have a soul he wouldn't be penitent, he wouldn't be as destroyed as he is by what he's done. I tend to lean Buffy in terms of the soul being important myself, but I don't subscribe at all to the Angel/Angelus model of vampirism which Buffy seems to need to do. At any rate, the things she says to him in that scene she truly believes for whatever reasons she has, and they matter to her.



Except… the only relationship she directly talks about/references in any significant way (apart from her parents') is her relationship with Spike:
  • “The last guy I was with got really… I behaved like a monster… treated him like… but at the same time I… I let him completely take me over. Do things to me that…” (the thought is cut short by Holden attacking.)
  • “See this is what I hate about you vampires - sex and death and love and pain it’s all the same thing to you…” (yeah, and it specifically is to Spike in particular. He has always fully owned this.)
  • “The joke is he loved me. In his own sick soulless way, he really did care for me. But I didn’t want to be loved. I have all this power. I didn’t ask for it. I don’t deserve it. It was like I wanted to be punished. I wanted to hurt like I thought I deserved… I sorta think… - this is complicated – if you’d rather just fight…”
  • “That stuff with Spike, it’s pretty-” (and that’s when Holden identifies Spike as his sire which he wouldn’t have been able to do if they hadn’t been talking about him specifically)
Buffy is sharing her ‘intimate thoughts’ with Psych Major Holden because 'there are some things you can only tell a stranger' and he guided that conversation. She shares with Angel because he was her lover and they went through something traumatic together. They have a bond. She also has a bond with Spike which is solidified by the end of the season, and she does share her intimate thoughts with him. Next time you watch Touched pay attention to the first half of that bedroom scene, because it’s not just Spike talking at her. Even before then, she confides in him in After Life and Life Serial in a way she doesn't with anyone else. I think the bigger thing to note is that Buffy seems to have less difficulty opening up to vampires than she does her own friends.



She had to convince Xander who hates Spike more than anyone to share his home with him. Also, it sounds like the car ride was a hoot, but ok.



She’s not just idly wondering, it’s personally important to her whether he is or not. Look at her face after she dusts Holden. Watch that scene between her and Xander again or even her and Willow - She doesn’t want it to be true. Xander literally says this, and she doesn’t deny it. She hasn’t had any reason to investigate him before getting that tidbit from Holden – why would she, he still has a chip, she believes him that he has a soul.



She’s the Slayer. And she was right. Like she was right about the Scythe. And Kathy. And any number of things over the course of the series. Her intuition isn’t something that was just brought up out of nowhere.

And he did literally fight to be a better man. That's not something she intuited, he told her about the trials, the torture.



As I noted at the top, Buffy's forgiveness may verbally be confirmed in episode 6, but what happened in that bathroom does not come to any kind of resolution until the bedroom scene in Touched, which is a direct response to Seeing Red and occurs almost exactly a year later. Imo, that's when true forgiveness is achieved and it takes nearly the whole season to get there and it makes the final moment between them possible. That's the journey. Buffy does struggle, she is unsure, she does have doubts, and when some of them start to be eased they creep back in in another way and yet she still decides to invest in him despite the danger and there is danger with him being able to be triggered, there is danger with not knowing what the First ultimately has planned. In the midst of training for the biggest battle of her life she's also navigating how she feels about him and over and over again can not articulate it beyond "I feel for him" until that last moment. That is the journey. S7 is a love story. The last two lines Buffy has in the season are "I love you" and "Spike". Not "I forgive you" and "Spike." Forgiveness was a stepping stone to getting to that last moment. It's 100% open to interpretation what kind of love it is, if it's romantic or otherwise, but that is where the S7 Buffy and Spike arc comes to rest.

Spike does not force himself back into her life. He comes to her home once to offer his services (after she finds him in the basement) and then appears suddenly to fight beside her in the library to save Cassie (after she goes to him in the basement to ask him about her). He does not attempt to leave the school until she tells him to. He tries to go when she installs him at Xander’s and he thinks it won’t work, he tells her to kill him when he finds out he’s being controlled, he says again he should go when they find out The First still has a plan for him. Over and over again she is either coming to him or stopping him from going. It’s in the text. Buffy is not remotely passive in this story just because she listens to two speeches on opposite ends of the season, and Spike is not forcing himself into her life by existing in the same town.



giphy.gif
This is a fabulous post and a great synopsis of season 7 from Buffy’s pov
 
Totally agree, I largely find the comics very weird fanservice and Buffy stops feeling like her own person. S12 is actually the most tolerable of all the seasons for me because they seem to actually recognise Buffy as a character within her own right and not just Spikes girlfriend. Buffy is not the only character that suffers in the comics of course, I think Angel probably gets the worst treatment. They didn’t do their titular characters many favours 😂

Yep Joss Whedon unencumbered by budgets and actors and studio guidelines is a really poor writer. I mean WTF was some of that
 
Yep Joss Whedon unencumbered by budgets and actors and studio guidelines is a really poor writer. I mean WTF was some of that
I actually like some of it but with some of it especially the end of season eight which reads like fever dream fan fic you know what I'm talking about totally with you. However I do suspect some people's including the poster you're replying to it's less about ooc and more about the character making some choices that they personally don't agree with. One of these things is not like the others.
 
I actually like some of it but with some of it especially the end of season eight which reads like fever dream fan fic you know what I'm talking about totally with you. However I do suspect some people's including the poster you're replying to it's less about ooc and more about the character making some choices that they personally don't agree with. One of these things is not like the others.

To me S8 really got bad when they got to Tibet. By then it had already started been going on to long as a series and then got really crazy 🤪

Not just the space sex but everything around it. Also Buffy sleeping with Satsu felt really inappropriate especially how they were drawn 🤢
 
To me S8 really got bad when they got to Tibet. By then it had already started been going on to long as a series and then got really crazy 🤪

Not just the space sex but everything around it. Also Buffy sleeping with Satsu felt really inappropriate especially how they were drawn 🤢
I find a lot of the implied nudity drawings really creepy considering they’re based on the likenesses of real people. Like they do it with Buffy, Faith, Dawn and Willow and with Dawn particularly it feels off to sexualise her so much. I know she’s supposed to be 18 but we still mostly know her as a child

Also I will never ever not find the Xander/Dawn pairing beyond icky
 
I was thinking of this the other day, especially after his behavior at the end of Season 6. The biggest red flag of any and the darkest the show has gone, even more than Willow's magic addiction. I go back to my stance on the show, IE, JW, not letting go of Spike, because, reasons. And shippers. Got nothing against the shipping, it's fine as far as battle/war partners go and Buffy forgave him, but them falling in love was absurd. Season 7 (should have been) is all about "Spike is the strongest warrior we have," even Principle Wood with his crafted plan involving Giles couldn't do it at the last minute. Spike can't die, but he can kinda die post series, then be resurrected, because, as we know, the reasons.

I did actually love the redeemed writing Spike had in Angel at the back end of the series, he was more of himself and the character I wished he was in Buffy.
 
T
thrasherpix
I also got to like Spike again in Angel season 5, and for the first time he came off has actually showing he had a soul (as opposed to still chipped and obsessed with a little crazy thrown in) rather than just saying it over and over again.
the fact that, if he really wanted to hurt her, her simply pushing him off would not have stopped him.
I know all the Spike fans believe this, but I don't understand why.

For 5 seasons, we have seen Buffy humiliate Spike when they fight. There is nothing on screen that shows Spike could have hurt Buffy if he wanted to. What is shown, is Buffy finding the strength to kick Spike off her, and, if he continues to attack, blister his butt and then dribble him around the house.

And, if Spike actually did hurt Buffy, does anyone really think he would have survived?
 
And he did literally fight to be a better man. That's not something she intuited, he told her about the trials, the torture.

Just out of curiosity...... Why should we believe Spike about anything?
Post automatically merged:

The last two lines Buffy has in the season are "I love you" and "Spike".

We could spend weeks discussing Buffy's "I Love You" but that has been done in several other threads.

I absolutely hate it when Spike stans say Buffy's last line was "Spike" because it anviliciously implies that a throw-away comment is something Spuffylicious.

What was the line before "Spike"? It was Giles stumbling out of the bus, viewing the crater and asking "What did this?" [Buffy] "Spike".

Nothing Spuffy like at all.
 
Last edited:
Back
Top Bottom