Buffy kicking a person out of their own home +

[Skanky Vamp]

What could she give him? A bottle of holy water? A stake? A sword for decapitation? A flamethrower? The sun?

She could have maybe let him keep his shotgun at least. And she didn't kick him out for his own benefit she kicked him out because "it's what all the cool kids are doing" to make matters worse, he didn't even have a car and he left on foot.

 

[AlphaFoxtrot]

Re: Wards; Angel going into Kate's house was Deux Ex Machina. I'm perfectly fine with that, the Powers were Pseudo Guardian Angels until Season 4, when became Lovecraft's elder gods.

Re: End of Days: It seems reasonable to me that an entity like the First would be powerful enough to warp reality enough to negate much of the ancient white magicks that protect earth from the old ones. I suppose there's the seeds of a subplot about Holy powered items not working as they should in season 7/4, in light of the brute force of the two, but it's never really picked up on.

 

[KaitKat]

I’m a pretty big fan of the simplest explanation is usually the truth, meaning that the guy is probably dead. I get that Buffy is the hero/protagonist so the idea that she disarmed a man and kicked him out of his home in the dark in a vampire infested town to get eaten so she could have herself a pity party about getting kicked out of her house close to the series finale isn’t a good look but that that’s what she did. Even if the man miraculously made it out alive Buffy still did that.

 

[thetopher]

Please also remember that most Sunnydale residents fled enmasse in the relative safety of daylight, not middle of the night time. They also had cars for a speedy exit.
One guy, running on foot, alone and unarmed through Hellmouth-town at night and Buffy did him a favor. Ha, yeah ,nope.

And its not like anybody knew 'hey, in another day or two the whole town is going to implode so better get minimum safe distance'. Nobody knew that, no character, not first time viewers and especially not Buffy.
It was more like Salems Lot; the town's got something wicked going down; do we stay or do we flee?

 

[garfan]

Please also remember that most Sunnydale residents fled enmasse in the relative safety of daylight, not middle of the night time. They also had cars for a speedy exit.
One guy, running on foot, alone and unarmed through Hellmouth-town at night and Buffy did him a favor. Ha, yeah ,nope.

And its not like anybody knew 'hey, in another day or two the whole town is going to implode so better get minimum safe distance'. Nobody knew that, no character, not first time viewers and especially not Buffy.
It was more like Salems Lot; the town's got something wicked going down; do we stay or do we flee?

I don't actually think the First's followers are interested in ordinary people at that point.

Plus, if he was dead, then the First could have used his form and taunted Buffy with that just as she was starting to figure things were going to go right.

And finally there were plenty of empty houses for Buffy to stay in, since the town was evacuated, Buffy's actions were not her telling someone to get out so she had a place to sleep, they were telling a guy to get out while the getting was good

 

[Skanky Vamp]

Plus, if he was dead, then the First could have used his form and taunted Buffy

She didn't care whether he lived or died when he was alive, I doubt she'd be that concerned in his afterlife.

 

[thrasherpix]

Hey, if Buffy did him a favor, then by that same logic, Buffy was well served by being kicked out. Going back with the rest could've had very different conclusions (like Caleb not conveniently tossing over that one specific barrel over the trapdoor, and unnoticed if he did), and Buffy wouldn't have had time to reflect and be inspired by Spike.

Therefore, they did her a favor in kicking her out...though really, she more stormed out when Dawn called her bluff. But still, no matter the intentions of all involved, it worked out for the best, so is excusable. After all, it would not do to hold Buffy to lower standards than those she commands.

 

[ILLYRIAN]

Buffy left her house to the potentials because they cried foul, proving that Buffy was a crap general. She should have told them to get out of her house.

 

[thetopher]

I don't actually think the First's followers are interested in ordinary people at that point.

Then a random vampire or even a Turok-Han (apparently) could've been roaming about. It's the friggin' Hellmouth and its apparently never been as powerful/potent as it is right now. Therefore it should be swarming with monsters out at night.

Plus, if he was dead, then the First could have used his form and taunted Buffy with that just as she was starting to figure things were going to go right.

I never figured that the First was that smart since its tactics tented to be incredibly stupid.

Plus, Buffy didn't care about those ghosts in Lessons when they were blaming her for their deaths, she certainly wouldn't have cared now, she just would've been less peppy about not caring.

And finally there were plenty of empty houses for Buffy to stay in, since the town was evacuated, Buffy's actions were not her telling someone to get out so she had a place to sleep, they were telling a guy to get out while the getting was good

All the more reason for her to go to any other random house after warning him off. She could've backed off, with her hands in the air so as not to appear threatening and told him, compassionately, to get while the going was good, but to fire at any demon-y thing that came his way.

It's really not that hard to imagine Buffy doing anything marginally less dickish.

 

[garfan]

Then a random vampire or even a Turok-Han (apparently) could've been roaming about. It's the friggin' Hellmouth and its apparently never been as powerful/potent as it is right now. Therefore it should be swarming with monsters out at night.

to the best of their knowledge there were no humans.

But personal opinion, I think as a bodiless spirit the First lacked for a lot of average demon followers. Groups like the Sisterhood of Jhe or the demon in Doomed, etc want THEIR apocalypse to happen. The First just seemed to want to wipe everything out. That's why it's followers were a bunch of the near mindless and a misogynistic crazy human.

So they aren't celebrating in an empty town, they're getting out too

 

[thetopher]

Well, I can see 'balancing' or neutral demons (like Clem) getting out the heck out of Sunnydale but are the majority of demons who are attracted to dark Hellmouth energy really gonna care about it not being their end of days?
It's the end of humanity; the thing that The Master, the Sisterhood and those bozos from Doomed wanted for the longest time. And the First is giving them that. Seems like party town to me.

Maybe if the show hadn't shown many different demons and vampires feeling, feeding on and relishing the rising evil power that was coming about all season (like Holden or evil-Ashanti) then I might buy that even demons were afraid of what was coming.
To be fair that is (somewhat) what happened in Amends, when Willie the snitch said that some demon-a-thing were worried about 'something' new in town.

This is (yet another) example of Angel S4 doing it better; when the sun went out in LA it became evil central and unprecedented numbers of vamps turned up, because of course they would; it was commented on and explained through characters to the audience.

The same is not done here; where are all the demons? We know that all the humans left, in one episode....apart from those people at the Bronze I guess, but demons are not seen leaving, its not commented upon. Giles doesn't say 'any demon with even a touch of humanity is running for the hills at this point'. All we need is a line to explain, but we get nothing. So I assume that they are pretty much everywhere (because that's logical) but nobody onscreen bumps into them. Off-screen? So yeah, for sure that guy died because its a deserted demon-infested town at the end of the world, threats are everywhere.

Like lots about S7 the more you think about it the less it becomes a season full of plot holes and the more it seems like a cobweb of lazy contrivance desperately pretending to be a story.

 

[garfan]

Well, I can see 'balancing' or neutral demons (like Clem) getting out the heck out of Sunnydale but are the majority of demons who are attracted to dark Hellmouth energy really gonna care about it not being their end of days?
It's the end of humanity; the thing that The Master, the Sisterhood and those bozos from Doomed wanted for the longest time. And the First is giving them that. Seems like party town to me.

Maybe if the show hadn't shown many different demons and vampires feeling, feeding on and relishing the rising evil power that was coming about all season (like Holden or evil-Ashanti) then I might buy that even demons were afraid of what was coming.
To be fair that is (somewhat) what happened in Amends, when Willie the snitch said that some demon-a-thing were worried about 'something' new in town.

This is (yet another) example of Angel S4 doing it better; when the sun went out in LA it became evil central and unprecedented numbers of vamps turned up, because of course they would; it was commented on and explained through characters to the audience.

The same is not done here; where are all the demons? We know that all the humans left, in one episode....apart from those people at the Bronze I guess, but demons are not seen leaving, its not commented upon. Giles doesn't say 'any demon with even a touch of humanity is running for the hills at this point'. All we need is a line to explain, but we get nothing. So I assume that they are pretty much everywhere (because that's logical) but nobody onscreen bumps into them. Off-screen? So yeah, for sure that guy died because its a deserted demon-infested town at the end of the world, threats are everywhere.

Like lots about S7 the more you think about it the less it becomes a season full of plot holes and the more it seems like a cobweb of lazy contrivance desperately pretending to be a story.

they would like to actually end some humans themselves, which if everyone is getting out of town, they can't andsome of the First's comments did suggest it wanted to end EVERYTHING, which means all life.

Also considering how rare demons actually trying to open the Hellmouth was, I think most demons that want to kill people actually do just want to kill people, rather than destroy all of humanity

 

[AlphaFoxtrot]

The possibility occurred to me that the First was akin the Hellgod of this plane, a Morgoth style titan, and prefers Bringers and vampires because corrupted humans is what Sin means. All the Demons we see in the series are corrupted bloodlines of other suns. The First is really just buying American.

 

[thetopher]

they would like to actually end some humans themselves, which if everyone is getting out of town, they can't andsome of the First's comments did suggest it wanted to end EVERYTHING, which means all life.

From what I gather The First's goal is simply to become corporeal on Earth, for that to happen it has to overrun the world and have a 'presence' in this dimension through the armies it imbues with its essence. 'Amends' already stated that The First is in everything, that it existed long before man and demons themselves. I dunno, maybe its the mental projection/dream state/spooky ghost of some Cthulhu-like Old One like Illyria. *shrug*

Because its origins are 'so mysterious' and always hand-waved away its hard to nail down specifically what it wants. For all its talk its amazing how many people have different interpretations of its end goal.

Do you have any quotes suggesting that the First wants to 'end everything'?

Um, because, without anything, there is no sin/darkness within folk, so I don't see how it exists on afterwards, unless by being corporeal that need becomes moot. But really, we're all just guessing.

If you're correct and I misinterpreted The First's goal, that just makes it more boring as a villain, and it was already the most boring Big Bad in terms of end game.

Also considering how rare demons actually trying to open the Hellmouth was, I think most demons that want to kill people actually do just want to kill people, rather than destroy all of humanity

Well, there are plenty of demons who hate humans and want humanity to end, but they don't just form a doomsday cult and try and open the Hellmouth. Over on Angel there were plenty; The Scourge was one, those pilgrim-looking demons from Happy Anniversary were another. Humanity is a plague that doesn't belong- they (demons) were here first- and so naturally they resent our presence.

Sure, there are neutral demons, and many demons that rely on humans to eat or procreate (from laying eggs in them to vampiric blood-sharing) but even then its probably going to be easier to do that after the apocalypse, when world governments collapse and the naked monkeys start running around in a panic. Not much of an organized threat at that point.

Basically many, indeed most, demons are capable of adaption and so I don't see them investing in humanity beyond convenience food. In fact vampires probably have the most to lose, since they are that more connected, through their memories, to the human state of existence. And even then there are plenty of vampires who want the Old Ones to return.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

Do you have any quotes suggesting that the First wants to 'end everything'?

That would make the First a really tragic character. They have been around so long and just want to die and fade away but they can't because a piece of them is in everyone. So the only way they can get respite is if everything ends. Aww, poor First.

plenty of demons who hate humans and want humanity to end ... The Scourge

I didn't think the Scourge was as worried about humanity as they were about half demons. They wanted demons to be pure. Never thought they had it in for humanity in general.

 

[thetopher]

hat would make the First a really tragic character. They have been around so long and just want to die and fade away but they can't because a piece of them is in everyone. So the only way they can get respite is if everything ends. Aww, poor First.

Actually it just makes it The First Edgelord: 'OMG I am the worst evil and everything's dark and crap and there's no hope. Humanity is really pants actually. All is tragic and I just want it to end already.'
The First wears all black, doesn't cut its hair and likes to pose on high places on windswept stormy nights, brooding about how hopeless everything is.


Regarding The Scourge, you're right about them focusing on/targeting half-demon/human hybrids because purity. I misremembered and guess the hating humanity still stands as a bi-product, they just weren't being super active about it.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

Actually it just makes it The First Edgelord

Wouldn't that be Edgelady? You thought the First was male?

 

[garfan]

From what I gather The First's goal is simply to become corporeal on Earth, for that to happen it has to overrun the world and have a presence' in this dimension through the armies it imbues with its essence. 'Amends' already stated that The First is in everything, that it existed long before man and demons themselves. I dunno, maybe its the mental projection/dream state/spooky ghost of some Cthulhu-like Old One like Illyria. *shrug*

Because its origins are 'so mysterious' and always hand-waved away its hard to nail down specifically what it wants. For all its talk its amazing how many people have different interpretations of its end goal.

Do you have any quotes suggesting that the First wants to 'end everything'?

Um, because, without anything, there is no sin/darkness within folk, so I don't see how it exists on afterwards, unless by being corporeal that need becomes moot. But really, we're all just guessing.

If you're correct and I misinterpreted The First's goal, that just makes it more boring as a villain, and it was already the most boring Big Bad in terms of end game.

first episode of season 7 when it's talking to Spike, as Drusilla it mentions the beginning "And that's where we're going..." and then shifts to the Master and says "right back to the beginning. Not the Bang... not the Word... the true beginning"

this was one of the earliest interpretations of the First's plans, before much had happened, but considering how little made sense later I don't know that people who subscribed to it ever really shifted away from it. The Bang and the Word are obviously the Big Bang and the Word of God, human ideas of how the world was created. And it says it wants to go back to the true beginning. Before those things. So the theory goes it wants to go back to the empty nothingness that the Big Bang happened in, that the Word of God was spoken in

 

[Skanky Vamp]

first episode of season 7 when it's talking to Spike, as Drusilla it mentions the beginning "And that's where we're going..." and then shifts to the Master and says "right back to the beginning. Not the Bang... not the Word... the true beginning"

this was one of the earliest interpretations of the First's plans, before much had happened, but considering how little made sense later I don't know that people who subscribed to it ever really shifted away from it. The Bang and the Word are obviously the Big Bang and the Word of God, human ideas of how the world was created. And it says it wants to go back to the true beginning. Before those things. So the theory goes it wants to go back to the empty nothingness that the Big Bang happened in, that the Word of God was spoken in

Wow. I never interpreted it that way at all.

 

[AlphaFoxtrot]

The way I understood it, is that the First's true form is close to a Balrog of Moria, whereas what we are seeing now is an avatar, a mental projection. Think of what you think of as a devil, as opposed to what the Cherub Lucifer would look like if the gates of hell were to ever open for him.

As for what does the First want, the Bringers are slaves, I mean, I don't know if they were based on the Ringwraiths, but I think that would be a good comparison. The Undead are basically possessed human bodies who are fueled by stolen life and powered by captive souls. I think destruction and death of the human race is a good starting place.

It's also worth remembering, the First is a the Christian Idea of a Demon. The Great Old Ones and their servants, are Lovecraftian, they are just god-aliens who have a vendetta for their world. They don't hate humanity like the First does.