Couldn't Slayers Tattoo a Cross on their Skin?

[M]

@darkspook and @Priceless
Something tells me getting burned by a tattoo cross wouldn't be much of a deterrent for Spike anyway.😉

 

[darkspook]

She'd cover it up when she and Spike wanted sexy times.

True SMG did have in it in her contract that she was to be covered. Plus Masters was one who had to declothed in nearly all their sexy times.

 

[Hunga Munga]

The old skin cross idea might have some limited use in a combat sitch but you could do it in henna or temporary transfers just as easy . Full coverage from temporary tattoos might be handy in a big battle . The Buffyverse vamps do tend to feed from the neck but there's plenty of arteries they can hit with fangs or wounding .

I agree with Anyanka and her preference for developing holy water solutions . Those super soaker toy water cannons , paintball guns , tanked pressure washers and the like , would make devastating Buffyverse attack weapons . Simple wet clothes with hat and hood would likely be amazing for defence . Natch Giles would have to get ordained to do the blessings but it could really work . 🙂

 

[TriBel]

The old skin cross idea might have some limited use in a combat sitch

Okay...but as a deterrent or a weapon? Doesn't the cross/crucifix burn (at least if your name is Angel)*? If a vampire comes into contract with a cross tattoo would the slayer be burned? Hoisted by her own petard sorta thing?

I agree with Anyanka and her preference for developing holy water solutions .

As do I. Question...did holy water work on Turok-han? I'm pretty sure crosses didn't. Turok-han have no speech...hence I'm guessing no understanding of symbolic meaning.

*I always presumed the effect of a crucifix was in direct correlation to the strength of a vampire's faith when human.

@Hunga Munga - thanks for the clarification.

 

[M]

*I always presumed the effect of a crucifix was in direct correlation to the strength of a vampire's faith when human.

This idea is intriguing. Given the origins of the vampire story, though, I believe we are meant to accept that the holiness of the cross along with Christ's inherent protection is what wards off the vampire. This was the original explanation for the protection these items afforded, and I think Buffy the show continues this.

After all, there is nothing to suggest that Kralik was ever a believer during his lifetime, but the holy water still worked on him, presumably for its inherent holiness as well. Meanwhile, good Victorian boy William, who likely was a churchgoing regular, as Spike is relatively tolerant of most holy items. In the Buffyverse, it seems to me that the tolerance for the crucifix has more to do with the tenacity of the individual, and none of them seem to be entirely immune. Given enough holy water, crucifixes etc. they all succumb.

Your comment, though, has got me to thinking about the continued popularity of vampires in a society that is otherwise Increasingly atheistic and nonreligious. The imagery is still there, yet it is all inherited from an earlier more religious time in history. In spite of the inherent associations, though, the imagery and creatures themselves still continue to fascinate people. I bet if you were to take a poll on here, most people would say they were either an atheist or nonreligious. I'm guessing only a small percentage of the devoted fan base have any kind of spiritually religious leaning at all.
How strange that the one monster that continues to fascinate is the one riddled with most religious imagery.

 

[TriBel]

Meanwhile, good Victorian boy William, who likely was a churchgoing regular, as Spike is relatively tolerant of most holy items.

I'm not sure about that...TBH it was Spike's response that made what made me wonder. Darwin's On the Origin of Species was published in 1859. It's a given that Darwin's text had an impact on religious belief. However, it wasn't as big an impact as people imagine because religious zeal in England had been waning throughout the "long 18th century" (in effect the Age of Enlightenment) as rationalism became influential. I think there were other reasons...the churches failure to address poverty was one but irrespective of cause the country was becoming more and more secular until today when the UK's the 6th most secular country in the world (far more irreligious than the US). There are a lot of myths about Victorian England that aren't true: one being it wasn't as pious as it's often portrayed. Spike's "survival of the fittest comments" in Pangs seem to allude to Darwinism. Plus, William was a poet so does Romanticism have an impact? They were heavily invested in inner passion and raw nature (doesn't he say he was attracted to Buffy's "rawness"?)...less so in the Church Spike quotes Poe early in S7: Poe was a romantic. I just think there's enough evidence to explain why he's less responsive to crosses than Angel and why his experience of the soul is so different.

I'm not sure how I'm supposed to read William. He suggests ringing Dr Gull to help his mum. Dr Gull was the Royal Physician but also a suspect for the Ripper Murders. Is that supposed to be an indicator William might not be everything he seems? IDK

The imagery is still there, yet it is all inherited from an earlier more religious time in history.

Yeah...I think there's a danger in periodisation. Lessons opens by showing Istanbul, England and Sunnydale - broadly, the Ancient World; the Old World and the New. On the surface it seems society has become progressively more civilized and yet there are small signs of oppression (colonization, class, misogyny) and I'm reminded of this: "There is no document of civilization which is not at the same time a document of barbarism. And just as such a document is not free of barbarism, barbarism taints also the manner in which it was transmitted from one owner to another". The blouse Anya can't get clean acts (IMO) as a metaphor for the palimpsest (the trace of the past within the present). In fact, I think it's a major theme - The First; Warren/Willow; Spike's Coat; CJ's Jacket etc are all either an intrusion of the past into the present or a continuum. The list is pretty extensive Buffy's parapraxis/Freudian Slips; the Shadow Puppets (a precursor to film/TV); Slaughterhouse 5 (Billy Pilgrim's "unstuck" in time). Argh...I'm brain dead.

 

[M]

I'm not sure about that...TBH it was Spike's response that made what made me wonder. Darwin's On the Origin of Species was published in 1859. It's a given that Darwin's text had an impact on religious belief. However, it wasn't as big an impact as people imagine because religious zeal in England had been waning throughout the "long 18th century" (in effect the Age of Enlightenment) as rationalism became influential. I think there were other reasons...the churches failure to address poverty was one but irrespective of cause the country was becoming more and more secular until today when the UK's the 6th most secular country in the world (far more irreligious than the US). There are a lot of myths about Victorian England that aren't true: one being it wasn't as pious as it's often portrayed. Spike's "survival of the fittest comments" in Pangs seem to allude to Darwinism. Plus, William was a poet so does Romanticism have an impact? They were heavily invested in inner passion and raw nature (doesn't he say he was attracted to Buffy's "rawness"?)...less so in the Church Spike quotes Poe early in S7: Poe was a romantic. I just think there's enough evidence to explain why he's less responsive to crosses than Angel and why his experience of the soul is so different.

I'm not sure how I'm supposed to read William. He suggests ringing Dr Gull to help his mum. Dr Gull was the Royal Physician but also a suspect for the Ripper Murders. Is that supposed to be an indicator William might not be everything he seems? IDK

Yeah...I think there's a danger in periodisation. Lessons opens by showing Istanbul, England and Sunnydale - broadly, the Ancient World; the Old World and the New. On the surface it seems society has become progressively more civilized and yet there are small signs of oppression (colonization, class, misogyny) and I'm reminded of this: "There is no document of civilization which is not at the same time a document of barbarism. And just as such a document is not free of barbarism, barbarism taints also the manner in which it was transmitted from one owner to another". The blouse Anya can't get clean acts (IMO) as a metaphor for the palimpsest (the trace of the past within the present). In fact, I think it's a major theme - The First; Warren/Willow; Spike's Coat; CJ's Jacket etc are all either an intrusion of the past into the present or a continuum. The list is pretty extensive Buffy's parapraxis/Freudian Slips; the Shadow Puppets (a precursor to film/TV); Slaughterhouse 5 (Billy Pilgrim's "unstuck" in time). Argh...I'm brain dead.

I think the Dr. Gull thing was a nod to another horror element and nothing more. He's pretty devoted to his mother. If anything, it just shows they were able to afford the perceived best, and socially high ranking enough to call upon Dr. Gull's services.

I agree there were much more diverse attitudes towards religion, even during the late Victorian Era, than what people give the the past credit, but I don't think it's periodist to say being an atheist, nonreligious, or even agnostic was less common or less socially acceptable then than it is today. Today, if you say you're religious, you get the side eye. It is swiftly becoming socially unacceptable to be religious. Just 30 years ago, that was less the case. In William's day you would have had atheists etc. No one would have shunned them, but you would have gotten the side eye. It was not generally socially acceptable. There is always some position in society that is out of favor.

As for William being a poet, well there are plenty of religious poets from the Romance Era and later. I do think William has hidden depths, but I don't think those extend to him being a rebel and skipping out of church on Sunday. Like I said before, he seems to be "mother's good boy," which given the era, I assume included regular attendance. If he had acted like Spike in Victorian clothes, then I'd have said, yeah, he's not religious at all, but he's too much stuck in little boy mode for me to believe that of him.

As for Darwin's work, I wouldn't have expected him to have ignored such a monumental piece of literature, but that doesn't necessarily mean he accepted all of it either. Being a poet from an affluent family, I assume he would have read quite a diverse collection of literature. There are instead many crumbs dropped along the way throughout Buffy that seem to suggest a prior religious upbringing, not in the fanatical sense, but in the commonplace sense.

Regardless, the notion of the crucifix and holy water holding power outside of belief still stands, at least traditionally in vampire stories, and also in the Buffyverse. Fast forward to today. Many of the vampires turned in the last 20 years would automatically be immune to these symbols simply by being atheists in their human lives, yet I believe we are meant to stand in awe of the few vampires who can withstand the pain to touch the cross. They are the exception, not the rule.

 

[BelieveInFaith]

This idea is intriguing. Given the origins of the vampire story, though, I believe we are meant to accept that the holiness of the cross along with Christ's inherent protection is what wards off the vampire. This was the original explanation for the protection these items afforded, and I think Buffy the show continues this.

This always really bothered me! I understand that the origins of modern vampire lore is rooted in Christianity but there are plenty of other cultures and religions that had tales of creatures similar to the vampire that the show could have pulled from if they absolutely needed a religious angle every now and then.

Because a vampire is something against nature and against God then naturally something blessed in His name such as a cross or Holy Water should work to repell such a creature. But that only works if
1. You absolutely agree that such a God exists which the show does not
(CWDP “is there any word on that, by the way?" Answer: “Nothing solid.”)
2. This God is the same God depicted in Christianity.

If you don't follow these rules (which the show doesn't) then it makes no sense that a crucifix would do anything to stop a vampire.

If you think that the show kept these symbols to create an interesting juxtaposition of the unholy vampire then this could have been achieved using any religious symbols that would have invoked some sort of religious conscience or duty in the person while they were alive.

So then using a cross to repel Vampire Willow would not have worked but Maybe a Star of David or a Hamsa could have worked on her.

Star of David - this symbol is linked to the "Seal of Solomon", the ring used by King Solomon to control demons and spirits.
Hamsa - a representation of God's hand.

Setting reminder: // In Doppelgängland after Cordelia lets Vampire Willow out of the cage in the library Vampire Willow chases Cordelia and corners her in the restroom. Wesley, hearing Cordelia scream, intervenes by waving a cross in Vampire Willow's face and forces Vampire Willow to leave.//

And for a show that is so progressive (that even introduces many different Gods both fictional and rooted in real religions - Glory, Hecate, Osiris etc) it bothered me that they perpetuated the idea that
Christianity is the true religion because regardless of the religion of the person while they were alive a crucifix can be used to stop any vampire!

I understand that we can't see Buffy patrolling with a bunch of different religious icons in hand to see which ones would work on the particular vampire she is fighting at the moment (if any at all).

But maybe this particular "weapon" could have just been left out of the show all together. There are plenty more ways to hurt and/or kill a vampire!

 

[TriBel]

there are plenty of other cultures and religions that had tales of creatures similar to the vampire

I think they pick up on this in one of the comics...the Giles mini. Roux is an ex-slave who is turned into a vampire. Her behaviour is more in keeping with various myths from Africa.

 

[thrasherpix]

Half-awake here, so I hope I understood and making sense. (And a busy week for me, if I don't answer now I'll probably forget about it unless it keeps being bumped.)

If I had to come up with a rule for it other than "it works because Bram Stoker said so" then I'd say the power was with the one who held the religious symbol. Even a church, or an item blessed in ritual, could have enough residual energy to have some effect, with the aura(s) of those that blessed it then imbued into the holy ground or object (just like holy water).

Crosses are popular in magic and not just present in Christianity, but many religions, and a vampire is like a crossroad between a vampire and a demon. I could see them being more vulnerable to crosses for that reason as it targets their dual-nature in a magical way. Even if it wasn't innate, some epic spell might be put in place, equal to creating the First Slayer, that gave a handy weapon to use against vampires using a symbol that was present in more than one religion.

I don't think any cross could work against them, it would have to be blessed (similar to water vs holy water). Otherwise a crossbow might form a backup cross (OTOH, a crossbow could be blessed...), or a person could put two sticks together to make a vampire back away with a hiss, which just doesn't seem likely even in the show.


I'd say it's related to the same factor that won't allow a vampire to enter a person's home. It has more to do with the soul/aura of the person than the vampire's beliefs (though vampires show themselves superstitious in other ways as well, but with no more effect than a superstitious human).

With that in mind, tattoos wouldn't work...though remembering that some tats are said to have magic abilities in them (but then it isn't unknown for vicious gangs to have religious tats as well), I could see that a specially made tattoo made with with a blessed needle and holy-water ink of some kind could have an effect, maybe even if the person with the tat lost faith since the tats were actually made by someone else who had faith (and losing faith doesn't mean vampires can walk into your home in the Buffyverse).


Still, this is a show where Luke is badly burned by a moment of contact with Buffy's cross, as if an experienced vampire never learned to check and rip off (without touching the cross) or turn over so the cross wasn't facing him (at least an attempt), and yet new vamps can jump Xander who is covered in crosses and yet the vamps don't seem to slow down. I remembered being annoyed with one show--I THINK it was a season 1 Buffy ep, but I'm not absolutely sure it was even Buffy, may have been some other show or movie--in which crosses worked well, but when convenient to the story, the characters all forgot about that (and it's not like it would be that hard to write in how they lose the grip on the cross or something like that).

That is, we can speculate all day, but crosses worked as convenient, not in with some series Bible in mind to keep it consistent.


On another note, the Slayer is supposed to keep a secret identity, which such tats would violate (at least to those in the know, like vampires). But then about everyone knew who Buffy was and where she lived so that even vampire tourists came to see her, and yet none of them ever thought to burn her house down, or thought to go after her mom and friends (at least the times I remember can be counted on one hand). And it seemed a great many had occult hobbies around the Hellmouth anyway, or were affected by it even if they didn't, so I don't see a point of secrecy at all. If I wrote the story, it would be a lot different...but then it wouldn't be shown on family TV since it would be a lot more like American Horror Story.

 

[BelieveInFaith]

A church, or an item blessed in ritual, could have enough residual energy to have some effect, with the aura(s) of those that blessed it then imbued into the holy ground or object (just like holy water).

Love this perspective! I hadn't thought of it from the angle that it's power comes from the person who blessed it.

 

[Stake fodder]

Otherwise a crossbow might form a backup cross (OTOH, a crossbow could be blessed...), or a person could put two sticks together to make a vampire back away with a hiss, which just doesn't seem likely even in the show.

Nor do I recall anyone just holding up their fingers in a cross gesture, which would be more convenient.

My headcanon is that the cross works to repel vampires because a cross is a more direct symbol of God, whereas the Star of David is a symbol of Jewish kings, thus more a symbol of a religion than directly of God. (Although obviously a cross or crucifix is also a symbol of a particular religion.) But I admit I haven't done much research on this, I just see it that way because otherwise it does seem to proclaim Christianity as the "true" religion. And certainly it indicates that the show sees God as real, and therefore it works on vampires of all (or no) religions. Perhaps another question is, could an atheist human use a cross on a vampire?

As for tattooing it, it does seem like Faith, at least, would have one along with her other tattoos. Why not have the extra protection, just in case it does work?

 

[Ethan Reigns]

If you recall the fight between Spike and Robin Woods, it took place in a room that was covered in crosses of every shape and size. It didn't stop Spike from winning. Earlier when Buffy and Faith were fighting vampires in the church, one of the vampires was showing the others that there was nothing to be afraid of there. A large part of the vampire legend came from Bram Stoker's 1898 story of Dracula which was told from the position of Roman Catholic orthodoxy and it was so effective that even atheist writers continued to use Catholic dogma as the starting point for anyone who had to deal with vampires. Holy water was shown to burn vampires and in the case of Kralik, it killed him, but this is nothing other than water that has been blessed by a priest (and in some Protestant religions, the minister) and thus became consecrated to God. Similarly, when the vampires were digging up the master at the beginning of Season 2, the vampires doing the digging complained that the consecrated ground burned their hands.

The advantage of writing the story from the standpoint of a specific religion is that the tenets of the religion are widely known and the writers can make use of this fact without having to explain any backstory. As a writer, you would not have to write for every religion that exists because then the story would get bogged down in concepts of what symbols would be holy enough to deter a vampire attack from other religions in the world.

A cross tattoo on a slayer may make contact between the tattoo and the vampire give a superficial burn to the vampire but as we have seen, even the burn from the impression of a cross does not stop an attack. It is explained early in Season 1 that religious symbols may cause pain but will not stop an attack.