Riley and Buffy - Where does the blame lie?

[zobothehobo]

Well, geez? What's everyone going on about it being her fault? If she doesn't feel comfortable opening up to Riley, then that's it. I don't think it's her "fault". It's the kind of person she is at the time (still hurting over losing her lover, twice!), coupled with tons of extraneous circumstances with her family practically falling apart and a hell god on her ass. If Riley's the kind of guy who would push her or guilt her into opening up to him, then why should she stay? Also, she doesn't owe anything to him if he won't share his feelings either. Hypocritical, much.

Do we forget that he hurt her REALLY badly with the vampire suckjobs? And the ultimatum? Like, dude. Uncool.

I can't rep that post again.. but yeah. My thoughts EXACTLY.

 

[TheVoid68]

In my conversations with other BB members on this subject, the males side with Riley quite definitively and the females side with Buffy. I wanted to open this up to more people and see if this is a common trend.

Thoughts?

I can tell you unequivocally that I am male, and that I am absolutely, 100% on the side of Buffy. I have hated Riley with an intense passion ever since his first appearance, and that hatred only intensified with him silly little ultimatum in Into the Woods.

 

[LadyLavinia]

But is it her fault that she didn't love him? I don't think it is. I just don't think they were compatible. to be honest. They have their cute moments and she seems ostensibly happy for once, but I don't think that's enough for a relationship.

No. It's her fault that she had used him as rebound. Buffy had jumped into a relationship with him, after her disastrous meeting with Angel in L.A. But don't worry. Riley contributed to the breakup of the relationship with his insecurities and unwillingness to discuss where they stood in their relationship.

They were both at fault. It was so apparent to me that I find it extremely difficult to make a choice over who was to blame.

 

[Zeppo]

I think if there was any blame it was definately on Buffy.

Okay, so she had trauma's going on that made her ignore her devoted boyfriend. He could've broken up with her instead, I mean, there was nothing there for him during this time. But after all that was going on he knew it would've been bad to do. But one must take care of themselves, too. So instead he tried to find solice some other way to fulfill himself away from her distracted eyes. If he had gone off to sleep with another woman after feeling so neglected yes, it would be wrong but it wouldn't be unprovoked. He wouldn't of done it if she hadn't of pushed him away. It's not like it was his ideal situation, nor was he doing it to be vindictive.

And then he is offered an opportunity. Why take the opportunity elsewhere if there is a life with Buffy? So he asks her, flat out, if there is and if there isn't he's going to go. Totally fair, why would he stay otherwise? And after all that he let's HER decide what he's going to do. He could've said, "I'm leaving, you've been a brat to me, so take that!" Riley was given a timeline, a day, so he had to give Buffy the same time.

This time, Riley had the power. I don't think Buffy knew how to handle that initially.

 

[racheltng]

In the episodes leading up to Into the Woods, Riley strikes me as very needy. Oh, poor me, my girlfriend's mom is dying and she won't open up to me. She did open up to him, once it was all over. In the mean time, she needed to stay strong, or she couldn't do it. Why does he need her to cry on his shoulder?

 

[Flannen]

I'm female and blame Buffy. I always have done.

From Riley's PoV the relationship broke down because Buffy was more focused on her slaying than she was on him. He thinks that her experiences with Angel, Dracula and Spike mean that she wants a boyfriend that's not so Ordinary Joe. He thinks she isn't giving enough of herself to him and wants to experience that 'darkness' for himself.

Interestingly, this has never been my interpretation of why Riley thought the relationship broke down. I've never seen this apparent issue that Riley had with Buffy's strength nor her role as the Slayer. Personally, Buffy's role as the Slayer has never factored in the breakdown of her relationship, rather its her role as a girlfriend; one that she plays poorly and only how and when it suits her. I think Kean makes an interesting point about the vamp biting stuff, which I would never condone, that it was about a desperate attempt to try and understand what was driving her. A poor decision and bad judgement, of course, but I can understand his reasoning.

I seriously don't take issue with the ultimatum at all. What else was he going to do? Continue to be made a fool of by the woman he loved or move on? If Buffy really had, as she said herself and as has been quoted here, given her heart, body and soul, then all she had to do was actually find it within herself to SHOW it to him. And she couldn't. What other sign did Riley need to understand he was going to be better off leaving?

Riley's insecurities (a term I don't really like to use because I think it makes him sound as if he was being self absorbed when I actually think he had perfect reason to feel the way he did) did not come out of nowhere. He was being continually pushed away. And yes, Buffy had other things to worry about, but as HisMrs (I think) I said, of course he was going to be hurt by the fact that Buffy did not turn to him, did not even tell him her mother was in hospital. This was a huge factor in his decision to leave, it was the first big sign that Buffy really wasn't treating him in the way that he deserved to be. In terms of his vampiric misdemeanour, he went about it the wrong way but his 'silly little' ultimatum was pretty fair.

I've always felt that Buffy treated Riley unfairly and made the whole thing about herself. It was all 'I've done this' 'me, me, me' and she couldn't even take a moment to take stock of what had happened until it was too late. She too chose to make it Riley's problem with her strength and her duties instead of looking within herself to see what role she might have played.

Also, I don't see the blowing up of the crypt as Riley being the 'I have to be in charge' guy. It was one of Riley's finest moments; well thought out and planned and executed with the perfect amount of triumph and cockiness. Perfection.

 

[Willow My Love]

The thing is, it's never simply ONE person's fault when things in a relationship break down. In my experience, it's been fault on both parts.

Buffy wasn't completely available to Riley, but, as the Slayer, she really couldn't be. And she let herself go with Angel, and look how that went. Maybe it had nothing to do with being the slayer. She gave him all she could spare of herself, while still being able to cling to who she is.

Riley shouldn't have done what he did. He should have talked to Buffy. He handled the situation completely wrong, and then makes her choose. And what if she had made him stay, and then they broke up? ("Then why did you make me stay, Buffy?!") He'd hold it against her.

They were both wrong. But I do put more blame on Riley. He shouldn't have made her choose. And why didn't he turn his head?! I yell at the TV every time I watch that episode, "LOOK TO YOUR LEFT!!!"

 

[VisionGirl]

Awesome post Flannen- ITA, and I have a hard time with people not seeing that. It kinda drives me crazy that people cannot see these points, and simply focus only on Riley's "suckjobs". That was not what broke up Briley.

One thing I will disagree with you on however: I do agree that I don't think that Riley had a problem with Buffy as the Slayer. Except that post-Restless, as she explores that side of her more, it causes her to disconnect with everyone, most especially him. The breakup of Bangel certainly led her to have difficulty getting close, but her relationship wtih Riley really changes in season 5. The biggest dilemma for her (or any Slayer I suppose), is how can someone with a deathwish survive in a loving relationship? At least with Angel or Spike their darkness matches hers. Maybe another reason why she can't be in a relationship with a "normal" guy.

Add into that where Riley is at that point in his life: his mentor, purpose, friends, and "job" had just been taken away from him. He was trying to go from uber military guy to regular college student.

---------- Post added at 07:52 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:50 PM ----------

In the episodes leading up to Into the Woods, Riley strikes me as very needy. Oh, poor me, my girlfriend's mom is dying and she won't open up to me. She did open up to him, once it was all over. In the mean time, she needed to stay strong, or she couldn't do it. Why does he need her to cry on his shoulder?

It's called letting people in. It's what people in a relationship do. Compare Buffy in season 5 to Buffy in season 3, crying on Willow's lap when Angel breaks up with her. I realize that the possibility of losing a parent is a lot more devestating than a breakup. Riley just wants to be there for Buffy; she won't let him.

 

[Willow My Love]

It's called letting people in. It's what people in a relationship do. Compare Buffy in season 5 to Buffy in season 3, crying on Willow's lap when Angel breaks up with her. I realize that the possibility of losing a parent is a lot more devestating than a breakup. Riley just wants to be there for Buffy; she won't let him.

I can see where Rachel is coming from though. My Grandmother recently had about a 6 month stint in and out of hospitals and nursing homes. I was terrified that she was going to die in that hospital bed, but if I let my guard down, I would just completely lose it. Only when she got home did I voice my concerns and actually let myself think about what had happened. And I hadn't talked about it with my person either. It's a defense mechanism.

 

[VisionGirl]

Well, I don't know, when my dad was dying I talked about everything with my husband (and friends). Yeah, there were some times when he felt left out (like when my mother, brother & sister & I were planning the funeral), but I spent a lot of time crying on his shoulder.

 

[Zeppo]

Willowmylove agrees: So, instead of really trying to talk to Buffy, the best alternative is to go find his thrills elsewhere? That doesn't make it Buffy's fault 100%.

I dunno how easy it is to tell someone you love that they're treating you like sh!t, especially when they are hurting from forces outside the relationship. To say that seems selfish and Riley wasn't a selfish character. Also, I never said it was 100% Buffy's fault but she was the instigator so why place judgement on the one that's forced to react? That's why I believe the blame to be on her. She just assumed Riley would always be there and when he showed up and said, "Hi. I'm a person, too," I think she felt guilty and lashed out. Xander helped her realize that. Guarenteed, if she had caught up to that helicopter, she'd be appologizing left, right and center.

 

[methos]

i'm neutral on this...

they were in a relationship and in any argument it takes two to argue...

i can't really fully place the blame on either of them because they both messed up and were going through some tough times... they were both at fault in the end and should have talked it out properly, but they didn't...

M

 

[VisionGirl]

Flannen agrees: Very true about S5 Briley, it was different. I think what I meant was it wasn't an outright issue with her being Slayer but some of the things that came with it. Does that make sense? lol

Totally. I don't think he had a problem with her being stronger than him, but she had a purpose, and he was kind of purposeless at the moment due to his circumstances. He was searching for his place. As we see in season 6 he found it, but unfortunately it was not with Buffy.

zobothehobo agrees: That's how you handle that type of situation. I'm like Buffy. When it looked like my dad might not make it through the night, I shut down.

Sure, I agree that everybody deals with it differently. And I'm sure I was not open & communicative the entire time, it's just that it's not entirely unreasonable for Riley to want to be there for Buffy. Yes, she's a Slayer, but she's still a person too. She was able to open up with Angel in s2&3. After he left though, & she got burned by the first person she tried to be with after that, she was more closed-off.

 

[Zeppo]

Willowmylove agrees: My point is, he was in the wrong. He wasn't perfect either.

I didn't say either of them were perfect, they are human. I get that you believe him to be in wrong, too. Yes, he reacted badly but I find it hard to blame him for being forced to react, badly or otherwise. He could've done something way worse. I find Buffy more in the wrong ultimately - though unintentionally - which is why I place whatever blame there is on her.

 

[LadyLavinia]

Slaying is a huge part of her life but while she was happy to let him patrol when she wasn't there, she didn't want him around when she was slaying.

I'm not so sure about that. In "Fool For Love", Buffy had insisted that Riley allow the other Scoobies to accompany him on his vamp patrol; despite the fact that a) Riley was an experienced demon hunter; and b) the Scoobies proved to be just as useless as assistants as they were for Kendra in "Becoming, Part 1".

 

[fly on the wall]

Ugh. I hate Riley so much that I automatically voted "female - side with Buffy"...but I'm not even sure I mean that. Because even if their break-up WAS Buffy's fault, I don't blame her. In fact, I commend her. Ruin the relationship, I say, ruin it hard because he sucks so much.

However, I'll try to put my hatred of Riley aside for a moment and look at this objectively (ha! yeah right). I think the relationship was doomed from the start and that, yes, it was primarily Riley's fault. The guy had issues. Despite the fact that he fought by Buffy's side and seemed to accept her strength and power on the surface...sometimes this facade would fall and we'd see his true colors. He was desperately insecure about almost everything relating to Buffy: her strength, history of slaying demons, Angel, Parker, etc etc etc. When his own medicine-induced strength started to fade, he couldn't take it. Hell, he almost gave himself a heart attack rather than admit any weakness around Buffy.

Saying that "oh, he's just the typical guy" is blatantly a cop-out and, honestly, offensive. Or maybe I just don't hang out with enough "typical guys." But if being a typical guy means you're completely threatened by a woman's strength, I'm GLAD I don't know these guys.

And then comes Season Five, where Buffy is going through an incredible amount of stress. Riley wanted her to open up, but NOT for her own sake. He wanted her to break down and seek comfort in him for HIS sake, to make HIM feel better and more capable and more appreciated, and that's messed up. Buffy didn't break down to anyone this season...the only times we see her lose it, she's alone. That's because that is who Buffy is..as the Slayer, and as a person. And yes, it's a fault of hers, one that she deals with throughout the whole series...but Riley didn't want to help her. He wanted to feel better about himself.

So even if the deterioration of their relationship comes down to Buffy's actions, well, I'm okay with that. Because who Riley was as a person was not a good match for Buffy. His personality sucked. The only way that relationship would have worked would be if they were both completely different people, and well, I like Buffy. I don't like Riley. So I blame him. My only regret about him leaving is that his helicopter didn't go down in flames in the distance.

 

[Kana]

Because my browsers playing up at the moment, I'm not sure if I'll be able to write this but here it goes...

Ugh. I hate Riley so much that I automatically voted "female - side with Buffy"...but I'm not even sure I mean that. Because even if their break-up WAS Buffy's fault, I don't blame her. In fact, I commend her. Ruin the relationship, I say, ruin it hard because he sucks so much.

You're not loving the Finnster?? Awww come on.

However, I'll try to put my hatred of Riley aside for a moment and look at this objectively (ha! yeah right). I think the relationship was doomed from the start and that, yes, it was primarily Riley's fault. The guy had issues.

As did Buffy...

Despite the fact that he fought by Buffy's side and seemed to accept her strength and power on the surface...sometimes this facade would fall and we'd see his true colors. He was desperately insecure about almost everything relating to Buffy: her strength, history of slaying demons, Angel, Parker, etc etc etc. When his own medicine-induced strength started to fade, he couldn't take it. Hell, he almost gave himself a heart attack rather than admit any weakness around Buffy.

I think it's more complicated than it actually being a facade. Riley wasn't lying when he said that sometimes it was an issue but it wasn't the main problem, Buffy being emotionally unavaibable was the problem he had. The jealousy thing didn't bother me so much becase Spike and Angel suffered from that too, it was hardly exclusive to Riley. His initial response was childish, but it uncovered the larger issue. How come Buffy was so emotionally responsive to Angel but not him. We're not blaming Buffy here nor are we absolving Riley, but attempting to understand what happened. I think he thinks Buffy wants more for that this reason. People have even argued on this very issue that she does need someone more than human, so it's not a simple issue at all.

Saying that "oh, he's just the typical guy" is blatantly a cop-out and, honestly, offensive. Or maybe I just don't hang out with enough "typical guys." But if being a typical guy means you're completely threatened by a woman's strength, I'm GLAD I don't know these guys.

I do think he has issues with being less than what he was, but that shouldn't even be a gender issue. I'm not saying it's typical but it's understandable. So much changed so quickly and he didn't deal with it in the best way. I get what Buffy was going though but no one seems to care that Riley had his own issues and we shouldn't belittle them. However what they both should have done is share these feelings.

And then comes Season Five, where Buffy is going through an incredible amount of stress. Riley wanted her to open up, but NOT for her own sake. He wanted her to break down and seek comfort in him for HIS sake, to make HIM feel better and more capable and more appreciated, and that's messed up.

Well he wanted to be close to his girlfriend and didn't want to be taken for granted. If people can't deal with that in a relationship then they should be in a relationship, which is what the ultimatum was really about, which Xander tried to point.

Buffy didn't break down to anyone this season...the only times we see her lose it, she's alone. That's because that is who Buffy is..as the Slayer, and as a person. And yes, it's a fault of hers, one that she deals with throughout the whole series...but Riley didn't want to help her. He wanted to feel better about himself.

I don't think wanting someone to open up to you is necessarily just selfish, even if you do gain from it a little. That's what (imo) a couple is supposed to do, share, be close to one another, not push each other away and only be 'close' when everything is ok.

So even if the deterioration of their relationship comes down to Buffy's actions, well, I'm okay with that. Because who Riley was as a person was not a good match for Buffy. His personality sucked. The only way that relationship would have worked would be if they were both completely different people, and well, I like Buffy. I don't like Riley. So I blame him. My only regret about him leaving is that his helicopter didn't go down in flames in the distance.

I partially agree with this. Well not about hating Riley but that's a personal opinion. Riley's not a monster but he had plenty of flaws. I still feel that with Riley it had a chance of working out as much as with anyone else. Because let's face it, it wasn't all roses and kisses with the other two was it?

 

[WakingNightmare]

I completely side with Buffy, I blame Riley and that has nothing to do with the fact that I am female. Quick question, has Riley ever been in a relationship before? Because they strain. Sometimes someone (doesn't matter if they're male or female) may have a little too much on their plate and they'll distance themselves from their partner.

Riley was unhappy because Buffy didn't have time to give him enough attention and be part of his life, but I can't recall him ever trying to be part of her life. Riley did try to reach out to Buffy several times but it wasn't because he saw her pain and wanted to support her through her troubles it was because he was feeling lonely and unwanted. Instead of being there for Buffy he went to go get bitten by some Vamphoe when he knew full well that this was an even bigger betrayal than cheating on her with another woman.

But I can still see Buffy's fault in their relationship too. I think she may have been in need of an eyesight test in season five.

 

[Chosen Enemy]

I can't side the person who calles (his girlfriend?) stupid twice in one season, and implying it in the next). He was always jealous of her for her streingth (which Spike did love that that Buffy was stronger than him, sicky one), how could you be with someone who keeps crying you're stronger? I think he didn't respect her enough, never really understood her, and I'm not sure he even tried to.

 

[fly on the wall]

I think it's more complicated than it actually being a facade. Riley wasn't lying when he said that sometimes it was an issue but it wasn't the main problem, Buffy being emotionally unavaibable was the problem he had. The jealousy thing didn't bother me so much becase Spike and Angel suffered from that too, it was hardly exclusive to Riley. His initial response was childish, but it uncovered the larger issue. How come Buffy was so emotionally responsive to Angel but not him. We're not blaming Buffy here nor are we absolving Riley, but attempting to understand what happened. I think he thinks Buffy wants more for that this reason. People have even argued on this very issue that she does need someone more than human, so it's not a simple issue at all.

He almost gave himself a heart attack because he couldn't handle the fact that he might be weaker than his girlfriend. If that's not a "main" problem, I don't know what one is. He was also insanely jealous about Angel before he knew anything about their relationship. C'mon, when he found out they'd had sex, it was like Buffy betrayed him somehow, which was the most ridiculous thing I've ever seen. He MOPED about the fact that once, two years before he'd even met her, Buffy had sex with her boyfriend. That goes beyond simple jealousy. That's, like, psychotic.

Well he wanted to be close to his girlfriend and didn't want to be taken for granted. If people can't deal with that in a relationship then they should be in a relationship, which is what the ultimatum was really about, which Xander tried to point.


I don't think wanting someone to open up to you is necessarily just selfish, even if you do gain from it a little. That's what (imo) a couple is supposed to do, share, be close to one another, not push each other away and only be 'close' when everything is ok.

I don't doubt that he had a problem with Buffy being emotionally distant. The thing is though, he should have seen that was simply how SHE dealt with things and took that approach when confronting her. I don't think that wanting someone to open up to you is just selfish either...I think RILEY'S desire for Buffy to open up was mostly, if not entirely, selfish. It wasn't as if Buffy were worse off because she was dealing with things in her own way. She was holding it together and as okay as she could be. Riley wanted her to open up so that he could play the hero, he could be the savior for a change, and oh yeah it might make them closer but that seems to be a mere afterthought.