Unpopular Rants, Opinions and Confessions II

[Icarium]

Okay, Dawn is made of Buffy. I have no clue how Buffy got to this conclusion but for the purposes of the argument let's accept it. Dawn has a human component "inherited" from Buffy and a Key component "inherited" from her days as a ball of energy. He blood opens and closes the dimensional portal because of the Key component, not the Buffy component. Hence, for Buffy to be able to close the portal she has to have a Key component in her. But while crazy people see Dawn's "Keyness" they see nothing of the sort in Buffy. The monks don't bother to inform Buffy of her Key-ness. What exactly makes Buffy believe that her sacrifice has any chance of working? That's what bugs me.

Compare with Becoming. The situation is quite similar but back then Joss made sure that we knew why Buffy made her choice. He used Whistler as a plot device and made him tell her: "Then only Angel's blood will close it. One blow will send 'em both back to Hell.". So there was no wondering why Buffy does what she does.

 

[Black Eye Guy]

Buffy was told was made of her.

What the monks did was take the key energy and turn it into Dawn using Buffy's blood, so there isn't 2 components theres only 1, Dawn, she is the key.

Dawns blood opened the portal, and when Buffy jumped and died, the same blood that opened the portal was stopped so the blood closed.

 

[Icarium]

Buffy was told was made of her.

I don't recall such a scene. Told by whom? In which episode?

Dawns blood opened the portal, and when Buffy jumped and died, the same blood that opened the portal was stopped so the blood closed.

But Dawn was still bleeding when the portal closed, so even if Buffy's blood is the same as Dawn (something that for me makes no sense unless Buffy is also a Key) the portal shouldn't have closed anyway.

 

[Taake]

Starting to feel like perhaps this is a sort of "lets agree to disagree" sort of conversation, or it could go on forever...

 

[PrincessBuffy16]

But Dawn was still bleeding when the portal closed, so even if Buffy's blood is the same as Dawn (something that for me makes no sense unless Buffy is also a Key) the portal shouldn't have closed anyway.

It was detirmened where the portal can be opened. Am I the only one who remembers "It's time! We have to hurry part!"???? Portal could've been opened at the end of that tower crazy people built. If it could've be opened anywhere, Glory could've just just take knife with her and cut Dawn when she kidnapped her. But no, she waited. So, Dawns blood still pouring after Buffy jumped couldn't open the portal. And it couldn't close it.

Spike said it's all about blood. The First Slayer told her Death is your gift. And Buffy and Dawn shares Summers blood. Buffy is smart girl. She figured it out. If you didn't saw it, I'm sorry.

And you don't see Buffy is a hero. Interesting. I think every person here must disagree with you. Buffy not killing Ben was irresponsible? Probably. But, in her eyes Ben was innocent. And he was human. And Buffy is the Slayer, not Killer.

Ben: "She could have killed me"
Giles: "No she couldn't. Never... She's a hero, you see. She's not like us."

She lives with higher moral codes then other people. And she couldn't kill him, even with posibility of Glory coming back. Not everyone can kill.

Every Slayer has a death wish, as Spike said. As discussed before, some of us said that Buffy maybe did that because she wanted it all to stop. Maybe she was done. But mostly she was the hero. She could kill Ben, but that wouldn't close the portal.

 

[Icarium]

Spike said it's all about blood.

And I would reply like Xander did: "We're not actually discussing dinner right now.". Spike doesn't know anything about the portal that the viewers don't know, he can say whatever he wants, doesn't make it true. Not to mention he didn't mean anything about Buffy's blood, he was talking about Dawn and the ritual so how is that in any way relevant?

But no, she waited. So, Dawns blood still pouring after Buffy jumped couldn't open the portal. And it couldn't close it.

Why not? If it's the same blood, it's still flowing. Why should the portal give a damn that Buffy killed herself? The portal needs blood to operate, the blood was still flowing, it had to continue to operate if Giles and Glory's research on the subject was correct. If it just closed for some random reason then maybe Buffy died in vain and it might have closed anyway.

And you don't see Buffy is a hero. Interesting. I think every person here must disagree with you. Buffy not killing Ben was irresponsible? Probably. But, in her eyes Ben was innocent. And he was human. And Buffy is the Slayer, not Killer.

When the situation was pretty much the same in previous seasons and she had to "kill" Angel or Faith Buffy did it. Yes, Angel miraculously returned from hell and Faith miraculously survived but back then Buffy was ready to do what had to be done. And for me that makes her more of a hero, not less. In real life one can't always go for the magical third option.

Furthermore, by saying "You try and hurt her, and you know I'll stop you." Buffy isn't just being a hero, the way Giles defines it. She is actively putting her selfish needs (Dawn) above the life of everybody else and I can't accept that. If that's her idea of being a hero, well excuse me for not trusting the soundness of her next plan. If she had had the same mentality in Becoming she would have just kept kissing Angel until the world was plunged fully Acathla's dimension. Doesn't sound all that heroic to me.

 

[PrincessBuffy16]

Have you even watched the show?

The whole show is full of foreshadowing and predicaments, every word counts. Spike saying it's all about blood is predicament, which helpped Buffy to conclude that her blood can close the portal. It doesn't have to do anything about what Spike knows about the portal.

As I said, and it was said in the show, in The Gift, when we are talking about it, that portal can be opened in one place, and Dawn moved from that place when Buffy came for her.

Thing about Faith. I never figured out how Buffy could do that because I always saw her as hero, but love was mixed in that potion. That's really other thing, and we should stay on track, and talk about what this thread is about.

You don't see her as a hero. I do. End of the story.

 

[GrrArghx]

I think we've gotten way too off topic guys, lol. And the discussion is getting pretty heated. Maybe someone should make a thread about it so we can discuss and debate it there 🙂

On Topic: I think The Beast was lame and very creepy, lol. I've seen a lot of people say he was an awesome villian, but I just didn't enjoy him at all. But I will admit, the fight scene in Apocalypse Nowish is totally kickass 😀

 

[Icarium]

The whole show is full of foreshadowing and predicaments, every word counts. Spike saying it's all about blood is predicament, which helpped Buffy to conclude that her blood can close the portal.

Of course it is (rather clumsy) foreshadowing. But having foreshadowing doesn't exclude plot holes. A writer can foreshadow anything but in order for the foreshadowed event to be enjoyed it needs to happen in believable way. The Gift worked for you and that's great. It didn't for me. We can agree to disagree. I'd rather not hijack the thread any more.

 

[TheVoid68]

Becoming, Once More With Feeling, The Body and Hush are the worst episodes ever. Beer Bad, Wrecked and Go Fish are the best ever.

Spoiler

The above may or may not be my actual opinion. But at least we're back on topic.

 

[Vengeance]

I think we should've had more of Dawn. She's really just misunderstood. I don't think her character actually got to develop a whole lot until season 7. But seriously, more Dawn please.

 

[ToShanshuInLA]

On Topic: I think The Beast was lame and very creepy, lol. I've seen a lot of people say he was an awesome villian, but I just didn't enjoy him at all. But I will admit, the fight scene in Apocalypse Nowish is totally kickass 😀

He threw Angel out of a flippin' window!

I like that fight, too. 🙂 Lorne, naturally, had to make a funny comment: "Oooh, I'm gonna need a bigger arrow."


I'll just go ahead and post it:

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iB1jpQDEFpc&playnext_from=TL&videos=4aj4yfVgr8Y"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iB1jpQDEFpc&playnext_from=TL&videos=4aj4yfVgr8Y[/ame]

 

[TheVoid68]

The Beast was a good fighter but he wasn't interesting enough to be a Big Bad.

Chosen is a terribly overrated episode. It has some very good bits, but the first ten minutes is just drearily dull Bangel/Spuffy crap. The "men suck, women should be SOOPAPOWERED!" speech is ham-fisted and offensive to both genders (apparently Men just push women around, but women can only be equal to men if they have superpowers). Spike's magic amulet is very much a Deus Ex Machina and is annoyingly indicative of Spike's eclipse of the show - before it was always Buffy or one of the core four that saved the world at the end, yet in S7 it was Spike. It's not terrible but it's not great and is the worst season finale I think.

 

[Bungle Jerry]

Actually, it was a joke before, but I'll go on record as saying I don't think "Beer Bad" is anywhere near as bad as it's generally seen. I don't even think it's Tracey Forbes's worst episode (I think "Where the Wild Things Are" is way worse). It's funny, it gives Buffy an opportunity to act differently, and Willow's awesome in it (her scene with Parker is great). The snooty-university-kid dialogue (you're the guy who fills the peanut bowl) was pretty bad, and yes, it has a hamfisted 'moral', but it's still an enjoyable episode. Selon moi.

 

[Ruminator]

Here is my list, in order of most controversial to least:

- Joss Whedon is terribly overrated by his fans. So much so that it is nearly impossible to debate his body of work objectively anywhere on the internet. (He doesn't even qualify as one of the five best TV writers ever, not even close). While he certainly isn't as bad as his biggest detractors claim, his fans seem to lose perspective while speaking about him.

- The "female empowerment" aspects of Buffy the Vampire Slayer are really overstated. In fact, much of it is simply male bashing disguised as female empowerment. Look at all the misogynistic villains, absentee fathers, and nonexistent male role models (save for possibly Giles) to see what I mean. These things don't empower women, they seem to indicate that women can only overcome men when they are idiots.

- Buffy was in the wrong when they chose to kick her out in Season 7, the gang was in the right during Dead Man's Party and Revelations, and Giles was right to leave Buffy to her own devices in Season 6. Basically, what I am saying is is that the Buffy character gets cut way too much slack by the fandom for no other reason than being the Buffy character.

- The humor and over the top situations are both better written and more in tune with Whedon's original vision of the Buffy series than the melodrama and romance that was forced onto the viewer.

- The quality seasons of Angel (Seasons 1-3, parts of 5) are, episode per episode, better than the quality seasons of Buffy (seasons 1-5).

- Riley, Connor, Dawn, and the Initiative were all good ideas that simply didn't work because of various problems with the writing. Either they weren't given anything to do (Connor, Dawn), they simply did not fit in a believable way in the universe (the Initiative), or they were behind the 8-ball to begin with and the writers couldn't get them out of it (Riley). No one's fault, really. There are just limitations to these things.

- Buffy and Angel were both more enjoyable and more interesting as characters apart from each other than they ever were together.

- Shifting the Angel show away from dark noir into serialistic supernatural drama was a mistake.

- Along those same lines, Gunn's infamous/famous "trapped in a turgid supernatural soap opera" line says way, way more about the writing staff than they ever imagined it would.

- Season 8 is just not that good. The material did not translate well into the comic book medium and feels really out of place.

 

[Vengeance]

Season 8 is just not that good. The material did not translate well into the comic book medium and feels really out of place.

This one is actually pretty popular around here (I think).

I like your post though, I agree on points 1, 2, and 6 but on the rest.. well, this is the unpopular opinions thread 🙂

 

[Ruminator]

That should be Revelations instead of Amends, but I can't edit it for some reason.

 

[Taake]

- Season 8 is just not that good. The material did not translate well into the comic book medium and feels really out of place.

I really don't understand why most people seem to think this. I found season 8 highly enjoyable and perfect in the comic book medium, I don't see it working in any other medium honestly.
But I suppose to each his own.

 

[Icarium]

Joss Whedon is terribly overrated by his fans. So much so that it is nearly impossible to debate his body of work objectively anywhere on the internet.

I agree.

The "female empowerment" aspects of Buffy the Vampire Slayer are really overstated. In fact, much of it is simply male bashing disguised as female empowerment. Look at all the misogynistic villains, absentee fathers, and nonexistent male role models (save for possibly Giles) to see what I mean. These things don't empower women, they seem to indicate that women can only overcome men when they are idiots.

I agree, but with the proviso that this is mainly a problem of the later seasons, especially S7. In the early seasons there is a lot less preaching about feminism, the writers just stick to showing that women can be just as competent as men, which for me is way better than the preaching that followed.

Buffy was in the wrong when they chose to kick her out in Season 7, the gang was in the right during Dead Man's Party and Revelations

Technically Buffy kicked herself out in Season 7, other than that, I agree.

Season 8 is just not that good. The material did not translate well into the comic book medium and feels really out of place.

IMO, the writing for S8 is just bad and it would have made for bad TV if it had made it to our screens.

 

[Wesley]

I think the two best series of Whedon were Angel and Firefly. One of the main reasons is that Whedon is fascinated but terrible at writing 'feminine power' type characters, and in those two series the main male protagonist was superior to either Buffy or Echo, because he's much better at writing male characters.