Why so much hate on Angel?

[Priceless]

The character was never meant to be the leading man. He was a supporting character in Buffy's story and I'd say his role overall was actually tertiary rather than secondary - the main supporting characters were Willow, Xander and Giles. Angel comes after that in the ranks, and only comes to the fore when it's necessary to Buffy's story.

Buffy was a female leading character in an American 90's teen show, it would be unthinkable for her not to have a leading man. He was such a leading man he went on to get his own show. I'm not sure a secondary or tertiary character wouldn't have had such a risk taken on them.

There are scenes of obvious melodrama like the early S2 stuff (Some Assembly Required), but it's Buffy driving it and it fits at that point because she is a teenager after all so she's allowed to behave that way at least a little. But then there are more quiet down-to-earth moments like 'Earshot' which provide a nice counterpoint to the high drama. I actually like the moment in 'Graduation Day' when he does raise his voice a little during their argument. It brings in a bit more emotional variation and frankly it would be even more unrealistic to expect him to remain steady calm all the time. Just because he is by default reserved doesn't mean he can never get worked up.

Yes this is where my disconnect with Angel begins. Buffy is a teen girl, she's meant to be dramatic, but Angel is a brooding 240 year old, what's his excuse? He encourages Buffy's exaggerations, when he should be a calming, quieting influence, he's actually the opposite and all too often encourages Buffy's drama. That, for me, doesn't work with the personality we have been told Angel has.

I think it would be difficult to do their story without an degree of melodrama because it is written to be 'big, world-in-peril stuff'. The situations are extreme (gypsy curse, world getting sucked into hell - the circumstances are very life-or-death) and the characters have to respond to that in a heightened way for the story to hit a dramatic high note, even if they do mock/snark about it afterwards. That balance is part of the joy of the show. Melodrama actually drives the whole series- without it it just wouldn't work because it uses melodrama via larger-than-life fantasy and horror tropes to access a deeper psychological and emotional realism for its characters.

I would agree with this. In the early seasons the characters are metaphors, they don't need to be nuanced and so the melodrama isn't too jarring. But it is there and many fans deny that bangel was melodramatic, which I would totally disagree with.

 

[Antho]

Personally I see melodrama in absolutely all the relationship of the Buffyverse and I think it’s very good because without melodrama there is no tension and without tension the relationship is not interesting. I don’t care for a relationship where all is okay and everything is perfect.. that’s boring !!

 

[Priceless]

Spike is an incredibly dramatic character.

He is 🙂 But there is a difference between being a dramatic character and being melodramatic.

Riley and Buffy had hardcore melodrama (hello running after him to a helicopter!).

I would agree that was melodramatic, but the Briley relationship is one of the least intense or exaggerated relationships on the show. Bangel was continually exaggerated and overly dramatic, which is why other characters made fun of it.

There is a difference between drama, which all good tv should have, and melodrama, which takes an acceptable level of an emotion and exaggerates it, which is how bangel was written from the outset. Of course it's all subjective, so we may just be seeing different things.

 

[BuffyBot22]

I was with you right up to this point 😀 I think SMG ramps up the drama, it's Buffy's style, but I don't think Spike follows her . . . ok, sometimes they are melodramatic, but most of the time I think Spike tries to calm her down, he thinks he's a charmer bless him (and he is sometimes). Like the scene in the warehouse in Crush, Buffy is angry and scathing at Spike's declaration of love, and instead of him becoming overly dramatic, he gets calmer, quieter, uses humour and sexuality, tries to change the context . . .

SPIKE: It's not so unusual. (walks toward her) Two people ... in the workplace ... feelings develop.
BUFFY: No! No, no, feelings do not develop. No feelings.
SPIKE: You can't deny it. There's something between us.
BUFFY: Loathing. Disgust.
SPIKE: Heat. Desire.
BUFFY: Please! Spike, you're a vampire.
SPIKE: Angel was a vampire.
BUFFY: Angel was good!
SPIKE: And I can be too. I've changed, Buffy.
BUFFY: What, that chip in your head? That's not change. Tha-that's just ... holding you back. You're like a serial killer in prison!
SPIKE: Women marry 'em all the time!
BUFFY: Uhh!
SPIKE: But I'm not ... like that. Something's happening to me. I can't stop thinking about you.
BUFFY: Uhh. (turns away)
SPIKE: And if that means turning my back on the whole evil thing-
BUFFY: (turns back) You don't know what you mean! You don't know what feelings are!
SPIKE: (offended) I damn well do! I lie awake every night!
BUFFY: You sleep during the day!
SPIKE: Yeah, but - (through his teeth) You are missing the point. This is real here. I love-
BUFFY: Don't!

Their relationship is of course very different and as I say, although there is some melodrama, I don't think it's built on the intensity that bangel was.

Not really sure how this example you gave is Spike calming Buffy down.
This is just a ridiculous conversation between Spike and Buffy which is played for a more comedic aspect than dramatic aspect.

The melodrama is written all over Spuffy, especially that scene in s7 when Spike is hugging the cross with steam coming off of him as he says "did it for the girl." If that's not melodrama then Idk what is.
This to me was more melodramatic than anything between Bangel. Bangel's most melodramatic thing to me was the when you kiss me I wanna die line (which was early s2, so I forgive Joss for this since the show was still learning its footing. No excuse for this nonsense in s7 lol.)

 

[thrasherpix]

My memory of Bangel is him normally trying to calm Buffy down, like saying her mother is lonely (in Ted), or that her fears are not warranted (though of course the gloves come off when Buffy is in trouble), and even that losing her Slayer abilities isn't all that bad, she'll deal. Offhand, the melodrama I recall is either Angel being suicidal and over the breakup. And when they meet on Angel the Series (but of course they have to make a big production over that). I'm sure I'm forgetting stuff, but I'm remembering a lot more than I'm sharing. I'd think people who liked Spuffy but not Bangel would describe Angel as being more dismissive of Buffy's feelings (and his own) rather than being melodramatic.

 

[RomanticSoul]

The melodrama is written all over Spuffy, especially that scene in s7 when Spike is hugging the cross with steam coming off of him as he says "did it for the girl." If that's not melodrama then Idk what is.

Wasn't there also a scene where Spike is inside his crypt at the door and then Buffy is on the other side and they are both feeling up the door? Am I remembering that right? Anyway some scene like that happened and I remember groaning and rolling my eyes thinking 'OMG what is this? Bangel?'.

 

[BuffyBot22]

Wasn't there also a scene where Spike is inside his crypt at the door and then Buffy is on the other side and they are both feeling up the door? Am I remembering that right? Anyway some scene like that happened and I remember groaning and rolling my eyes thinking 'OMG what is this? Bangel?'.

You're memory is 100% correct. I don't remember the episode, but I remember the scene bc I was like "Seriously?"

 

[Professor Walsh]

I can love a dose of melodrama in my entertainment, just keep it out of my real life.

 

[Priceless]

Not really sure how this example you gave is Spike calming Buffy down.
This is just a ridiculous conversation between Spike and Buffy which is played for a more comedic aspect than dramatic aspect.

The melodrama is written all over Spuffy, especially that scene in s7 when Spike is hugging the cross with steam coming off of him as he says "did it for the girl." If that's not melodrama then Idk what is.
This to me was more melodramatic than anything between Bangel. Bangel's most melodramatic thing to me was the when you kiss me I wanna die line (which was early s2, so I forgive Joss for this since the show was still learning its footing. No excuse for this nonsense in s7 lol.)

Yeah I agree, Spike hugging that cross, pretty melodramatic 😀 But it comes back to the basic disconnect I feel about Angel. Spike is presented as a larger than life character, and for me his behaviour befits this. Angel is presented as a brooding, angsty introvert, who internalises his pain and is possibly a depressive, but when he's with Buffy his behaviour is that of a 15 year old boy having a melodramatic spat with his gf 😀

I think that's partly the writing and direction they wanted to take the character, but I also think it's DB not having a firm grasp on who Angel is, and simply following SMG's lead in ramping up the emotion (acceptable and believable in a 16 year old girl, but not in a 240 year old man) This why I feel a disconnect with his character; we are asked to believe he is one thing, while his behaviour tells us he's something else.

 

[TriBel]

Why the big problem with melodrama - it's not a dirty word (is it?). Seems to have served Douglas Sirk well. I think the fundamental difference (for me) is Bangel is "pure" melodrama. I don't mean entirely melodrama - I mean it emerges organically. Spuffy is a more postmodern, knowingness of melodrama. Spike is all about "performance". It's not a criticism of the character - it's the critical perspective of the text. It's his ego "reality testing" - trying on different costumes to see which one fits him best. There's a reason he watches soaps. There's a reason S 5 is framed by the troubadours and Courtly Love. IMO, it's Whedon suggesting there are no more stories to be told - no new ways to tell them (except there are and he does).

@RomanticSoul @BuffyBot22 I think the scene you're referring to is Dead Things. I don't think it's necessarily (or essentially) melodramatic. It will eventually feed back into S7's interrogation of ideology/instinct, mind/body. S6 itself is framed by concepts referred to in the lesson in Life Serial (see the soaps reference above - for lesson see Lesson S7) "Social Construction of Reality...A concept involving a couple of opposing theories, one stressing the externality and independence of social reality from individuals...That each individual participates fully in the construction of his or her own life...Because social phenomena don't have unproblematic objective existences. They have to be interpreted and given meanings by those who encounter them...does that mean there are countless realities?". In S6, by her own admittance, Buffy is confused by these ideas. In S7 she'll find clarity - of sorts. I think the "countless realities" are why S7 is so problematic. IMO, it's drawing on the politico-aesthetic of cubism. It's also referring to things outside itself (there's a reason the second unnamed potential is killed in a way that pays homage to Run Lola Run) but not outside textually in the broadest sense (except it does).

To go back to melodrama - I think for Bangel - it's style providing substance. I think for Spuffy - it's style with no substance because the nature of substance is under question.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

There's a reason S 5 is framed by ... Courtly Love.

Now that you mention it Miss World does seem rather apropos to Buffy S5. I am really starting to see the connection! Holy crap, you are right. I mean even the album title is Live Through This. And songs like Doll Parts and Violet, you can see homages to them in season 5.

That's a great thought, TriBel. I don't think anyone has mentioned it before.

 

[TriBel]

That's a great thought, TriBel. I don't think anyone has mentioned it before.

It is isn't it? Similarly, I don't think ANYONE - EVER - has pretended to confuse Courtly Love with Courtney Love*. We creatives should stick together. 🙂

I retract the statement - it's probably an in-joke at academic conferences.

 

[Professor Walsh]

To imagine me trying to follow the academic twist this discussion has taken, just do a search of "Buffy confused GIF". This is so out of my field that I would need a map to find my way back if I tried to follow you.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

And! With Courtney Love's framing the narrative in S5 it would explain why they had a musical in S6.

 

[TriBel]

And! With Courtney Love's framing the narrative in S5 it would explain why they had a musical in S6.

Might make sense - was she in Camelot? Given your knowledge of music is far greater than mine, would you be mind following up on the reference to Music Man in OMWF please? You can message me if you find anything - just to keep the thread on topic.

 

[Mrs Gordo]

Angel is presented as a brooding, angsty introvert, who internalises his pain and is possibly a depressive, but when he's with Buffy his behaviour is that of a 15 year old boy having a melodramatic spat with his gf 😀

Angel’s character is entirely consistent with his interactions with Buffy. He is rarely if ever rilled up with her, she is always be more demonstrative one. He is restrained. You might be reading lights or music or tears but it’s not like he is making outlandish claims or grand gestures that are inconsistent with his character.

Angel isn’t perfect sometimes he does petty things, I suppose you could interpret those as childish. But if you want to compare lists with Spike I’d imagine we’d be even keel. They can both be immature childish brats.

 

[Priceless]

Angel’s character is entirely consistent with his interactions with Buffy. He is rarely if ever rilled up with her, she is always be more demonstrative one. He is restrained. You might be reading lights or music or tears but it’s not like he is making outlandish claims or grand gestures that are inconsistent with his character.

Angel isn’t perfect sometimes he does petty things, I suppose you could interpret those as childish. But if you want to compare lists with Spike I’d imagine we’d be even keel. They can both be immature childish brats.

But Spike is meant to be an immature childish brat. Angel is meant to be the dark mysterious brooding leading man, it's a whole different vibe, but one DB either couldn't or doesn't project when he's with Buffy, at least in seasons 1-3, once he's in his own show he doesn't have to play the teen-love-interest so hard and does become more the character we were initially introduced to. I just don't think we are going to agree on this. Our perspectives are so vastly different, so I shall just agree to disagree 🙂

 

[Anyanka Bunny Slayer]

Anything outside of CC's bitchy/funny cordelia's wheelhouse was a wreck for me. When she tried to play nice, dramatic or in love I was completely taken out of it. (but again blah blah blah subjective)

She was definitely the least talented actor on Buffy...though, she had a few entertaining moments on Angel S1-2. But once her hair was cut, all was lost. I wonder if whatever talent she had was in her hair...? Haha. 😛

 

[Skanky Vamp]

But once her hair was cut, all was lost. I wonder if whatever talent she had was in her hair...? Haha. 😛

She was like that one guy. What's his name? When he started going bald he lost all his talent... anybody know who that is?



Oh, right. Thanks.

 

[MarieVampSlayer]

There is a central disconnect with Angel in that he is presented as brooding, solitary, quiet, and yet so many of his scenes ramp up the melodrama. It doesn't work for me, and is perhaps why it feels fake to others. His performance isn't nuanced. Unfortunately his face doesn't move much, so when he's listening to another character emoting for all their worth, his face looks wooden as though he's waiting to say his lines, instead of listening to what the other character says and reacting. He definitely improved over time.

Ok so a lot of people seem to think that Angel is the typical brooding Batman hero but to me he is not! The Angel character is complex because I don't think that originaly Angel would be brooding. Liam wasn't brooding and Angelus neither obviously! I always felt the restraint was necessary for him to protect the ones he love from him. He doesn't emote because he is scared he is going to go too far and hurt others. I think this is very visible in the pylea episodes where he is overjoyed with being in the sun and he starts showing emotions and making friends in the new universe. He then turns into the demon and hurt his friends which always happens for him. After Fred help him comeback to himself, he is dark and brooding again because he is reminded of the guilt and why has to always be in control.

The same could be said about his melodramatic moments, because sometimes Angel's real emotions slip and he gets angry or sad. Usually with Buffy because he can't control himself around her and put up his usual facade. With Buffy he wants to be real and that is very dangerous. For Angel to be real for me is to show all his emotions and well some emotions are melodramatic especially with love and jealousy.

I really think that if Angel could be fully himself, he would be goofier and more friendly. He would still be calm and intense because that is also part of his personnality. As for DB acting, it wasn't perfect but I think Angel is a very complicated character to play (In the ats serie) because you are constanly battleling different personnality inside one character. I think DB did a good job in the end and I don't find is funny moments or melodramatic moments OCC.