Spike or Angel.
- Thread starter PaulParmar1
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CHK DeWilSon
A BAngel fan. Always.
(This maybe just a lot of rambling that may not make much sense! 🤔)
Maybe so but we could all be accused of doing that for our favourite?...
I was actually trying to say that those two particular scenarios aren't really comparable not just because of the state of the souls being there or not but just the situations in general.
The difficulty with Spike soulless and Spike souled is that there isn't much difference to him. I'd blame that on JW and the writers with their decision to not have made a distinctive change (IMO) with Spike's personality and traits when he got his soul. I understand that Spike was a popular character as a soulless vampire so they didn't want to change so much in him that would upset his fans but for me it felt like I was watching the same character even with the return of his soul.
Plus as when you said about not comparing Spike's behaviour as a soulless vampire why then give him any due when he goes for his soul when he was still soulless then? Why is he supposingly acting noble when he is still soulless?
I just don't believe when he decided to get his soul that it was a noble act on his part and in his conscious because of what he truly was at that time. I mean what was the point that he decided this to be the only way for him in being with her? When Buffy quite firmly told him it was over and he actually believe her? Because IMO it wasn't. For me it was when he realised he could not have her sexually that this was the turning point for him because he equated (at that time) sex as being the most important thing in his 'relationship' with Buffy. So if he couldn't have any sexual relationship with her than it wouldn't be enough to just be involved with her without that.
And again I don't see it being noble to get a soul for girl that has told you that what ever was between you both is over and you can't accept it. Instead you will literally do anything to get that person back. Not very health but it was soulless Spike thinking this so his version of love isn't the healthiest. The problem is those that I don't think there is much of a difference in Spike's feelings about Buffy once he does get a soul.
With Angel, I'm all about Angel and Buffy and their love for one another.
Angelus was an exciting twist to their tale which brought it to another level but I am clear about who I love Buffy with. Angelus was never an option. He may have been a bit obsessed about Buffy at one point but in the end he want her to die and not turned like he did with Drusilla. Angel and Angelus may live within the same body but they are so distinctive different even in the way they carry themselves. They feel very differently about people. They feel very differently to me as characters. I was intrigued with Angelus and on perspective love his arc in series 2 but if they never brought him back again like they did in ATS I would have been ok with this because the development of Angel on ATS gave him much more facets in his personality and traits. However if they had killed Angel in the series 2 finale and had kept it permanent, I would have been devastated and can't say if I would have stay on for BVTS to the end and I did even if I wasn't that happy with a lot of stuff that happened.
From what I can remember about Buffy and Spike before the realisation of him getting a soul was that there was still a lot enthusiasm for them being together. The glee about their sex being more than anything that happened with Angel and Buffy because they literally took the house.down 🙄 Because that's the most important thing about having sex?! Anyway I just feel like regardless of whether Spike got a soul or not, the fans of his relationship with Buffy would still have wanted them to be together so I don't believe that him getting a soul to get her back is anything that makes him better in comparison to Angel.
The relationship that Buffy and Angel had grew IMO just as much as what you think regarding her relationship with Spike. It becomes more than a typical young high school romance because of the characters that they are and what the relationship means to them. Even if they were to never get back together again it wouldn't devalue what they felt and believed as time moved on with their lives.
And it's a No from me in splitting Buffy in two. I'm a all or nothing person and I'd rather Angel not be with Buffy if it ain't ALL of Buffy. Sorry. But not really sorry?! 😏
I guess for me I just connected with Angel in the same way you connect with Spike. Which is fine because it would be a pretty boring world if we all agreed about everything?! 😉
thetopher
Member of the Church Of Faith
And that's the 'out of universe' explanation, which never washes. Nobody goes 'aw, lay off Riley, the only reason he left the show in S5 is because of vitriol fan-hate'. Nope, they say 'Riley's an ass for cheating on Buffy with vamp-tramps'. Or something.
So, we got a kind-of explanation as to why Buffy and Spike broke up and it was very non-dramatic and due to no outside interference.
Sure sounds like they're just not meant to be.
S12 was easily the strongest season since S8. It was rushed but the dialogue was actually character-specific, witty and on point.
So...that one time she kissed him on impulse? Still in no way equal given his YEARS of pining.
But I do except that pre-soul (Season 6) there was a little more give and take. But in S7? No. Way. was Buffy jealous of Spike, despite his gross claims to the contrary in 'Sleeper'. *shudder*
Actually even the script supports that in Sleeper.Yes it did burn for Buffy seeing him with another woman.
And let's not forget him staying away in Angel S5. Hell he even teams up with his biggest rival to help and not pine for Buffy as you calling
thetopher
Member of the Church Of Faith
I really don't care what the script directions say since the scripts get changed all the time. What we see on-screen is what matters.
And besides the attempted rapist does not get to say to his victim 'ooh, getting a little jealous'. Urgh. Spike is thew worst this season.
Sorry, I just didn't see it. I think I was distracted by him murdering all those women he was stalking.
Yes, yes, its not 'his fault' but y'know, maybe that's the reason why Buffy was following him around and not because she was green with envy about all those girls Spike had buried in the basement.
As a Spuffy fan, I never thought Buffy was jealous in Sleeper either unlike in Dirty Girls in Spike & Faith scene when Buffy has murderous eyes when she sees them together.
B
Btvs fan
Its said she is in the script but her prority was always about the girl Spike was with
RomanticSoul
Frell Me
As @thetopher already mentioned, scripts are worthless. All that counts is what's on screen. Not what's in the scripts or what writers/directors/actors/showrunners say in interviews or audio commentaries. Simply because what's on screen is the only canon that 100% of people are aware of.
I mean if you count scripts then the extended version of the B/A scene from the series finale counts. Spike using a freaking cattle prod (I believe) to take Buffy down in 'Crush' also counts as I think that wasn't in the episode.
I also don't put much stock into Buffy being jealous where Spike is concerned. Buffy was a user and Spike the thing she used. He was a crutch to help her through life. Buffy's believe that everyone (especially men) leaves her was a deep seated psychological problem that Buffy never sought to overcome. Spike was different in that it didn't matter what state he was in or how she behaved in regards to him or how she treated him, he wouldn't leave her. She could also be assured he would be the one person to be her yes man. Buffy's ego and self-esteem needed that. That was true for the show (S6/7) and the comics (post S8). After all Buffy pretty much had no use for 'Stalky the Clown' until she hit a rough patch which caused her to turn to her 'Dark Place'. It's no coincidence that she didn't jump Spike's bones until she heard him say he wanted to move on. Moving on would involve physically leaving her and Buffy would lose her security blanket. It doesn't reflect terribly well on Buffy to use someone like that but there you go. I see her reaction to Faith and Spike in the same vein. It's not jealousy since she didn't care for 'new Spike' (she had made it clear she needed the monster, the fighter) but Spike was the only one in her corner during that part of S7. And just like in S6 she used him to get through the day. Spike getting close to someone else would threaten that.
W
WillowFromBuffy
Guest
Drusilla uses the cattle prod to take down Buffy, and Spike in turn uses it on Drusilla. Spike is chipped, so he can only harm demons and vampires.
DayDreamer27
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Spike could harm Buffy in season 6. She came back different on a molecular level which confuses Spike's chip. So he was able to hurt her by that point.
W
WillowFromBuffy
"Crush" is in S5.
DayDreamer27
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Oh darn you're right. So many of these titles for Spuffy episodes, I get them confused.
Crush
Smash
Wreck
lol
RomanticSoul
Frell Me
Eh. Anything past S4 is a muddled mess to me. Still doesn't negate the fact that scripts are not canon. Changes on the fly happen. Actors and directors put their own spin on things. And so on...
FaithLehane16
"Tact is not saying true stuff. I'll pass."
That still doesn't mean anything. Gosh! Why is it that people perceive that as something? She kissed Angel behind Spike's back. Should that mean something as well with the choosing? I guess so.
FaithLehane16
"Tact is not saying true stuff. I'll pass."
And I respect differing opinions. I'm also sorry if I came off harsh, but one of my triggers is when someone seems to be speaking in facts, when what they really mean is opinion.
FaithLehane16
"Tact is not saying true stuff. I'll pass."
W
WillowFromBuffy
Guest
There are many ways to read a show. It is not a fact that only the finished product is "canon." It is just an idea that you have chosen to believe. A fact is a piece of information that can be demonstrated beyond doubt, usually though empirical observation. What is and is not canon is just an arbitrary value judgement.
I just read the shooting script for Chosen, there is no extended scene, what's on screen is pretty much what's in the script. Buffy asking if Angel is pi$$ed is cut but that's about it.
thetopher
Member of the Church Of Faith
Okay, so what about the alternate scenes for 'Empty Places' that's in the shooting script? Or the completely alternate version of 'The Pack' or 'LKABOTFD' shooting scripts? Are they canon because they are also scripts?
Did Faith smooch Buffy on the lips in 'Enemies' because the script says that happens?
Many scripts get changed and script directions are merely suggestions at best. What we get on the screen is what matters, that's the stuff open to interpretation.
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