Spike or Angel.

Status
Not open for further replies.
thetopher said:
Okay, so what about the alternate scenes for 'Empty Places' that's in the shooting script? Or the completely alternate version of 'The Pack' or 'LKABOTFD' shooting scripts? Are they canon because they are also scripts?

Did Faith smooch Buffy on the lips in 'Enemies' because the script says that happens?

Many scripts get changed and script directions are merely suggestions at best. What we get on the screen is what matters, that's the stuff open to interpretation.
Click to expand...


I was responding to specifically about Chosen not the others.

Lets be realistic here nothing you or I say say is going to effect how the other views a show that ended 15 years ago or the ship each of us is into.
 
WillowFromBuffy said:
There are many ways to read a show. It is not a fact that only the finished product is "canon." It is just an idea that you have chosen to believe. A fact is a piece of information that can be demonstrated beyond doubt, usually though empirical observation. What is and is not canon is just an arbitrary value judgement.
Click to expand...
Interpreting a show is different from canon. And it's not an idea of mine. It is a fact. Scripts change, directors and actors have their own take. Not everyone reads/watches interviews. Most people who watched the show didn't read the comics. And so on. So the only canon 100% of the people discussing the show can agree on is the show itself. How people interpret canon is a whole different issue. Really rather simple of a concept.

Btvs fan said:
I just read the shooting script for Chosen, there is no extended scene, what's on screen is pretty much what's in the script. Buffy asking if Angel is pi$$ed is cut but that's about it.
Click to expand...
Scripts have drafts. Just because it's not the final shooting script clearly shouldn't make a difference. The extended B/A scene existed (can even be found online). So according to you it should count because it existed in a previous version of the script because scripts are canon. Just like @thetopher mentioned other instances.
 
Mrs Gordo
Mrs Gordo
It's like 2017 up in here. I missed you! :)
RomanticSoul said:
Interpreting a show is different from canon. And it's not an idea of mine. It is a fact. Scripts change, directors and actors have their own take. Not everyone reads/watches interviews. Most people who watched the show didn't read the comics. And so on. So the only canon 100% of the people discussing the show can agree on is the show itself. How people interpret canon is a whole different issue. Really rather simple of a concept.
Click to expand...
This idea of an absolutely autonomous and closed finished product that should be read in complete isolation as if it was some holy document is rather old fashioned. The arguments you make for the centrality of the centrality of the finished product have merit. It is certainly useful to have a common point of reference during discussion. However, some people like to expand their readings to script drafts, interviews, historical facts or make comparisons to other literary works. That is their prerogative.

You represent an ideological position. It is not fact. Other people see things differently. It is really rather simple.
 
PaulParmar1 said:
By Season 7
Everyone had concrete answers to whether they thought Buffy's best boyfriend was Spike or Angel.
Who do you choose and why?
You might have guessed I'm team Spike and Buffy all day.
How about y'all?
Click to expand...

I think as with most people it was her time to move on. Spike will always hold a place of intimate closeness in her heart as does Angel although Angel will forever (imo) be her weakness. I'm team Bangel and team Spuffy but for totally different reasons in different seasons (I'm a poet!).. There is only one episode I ignore as far as Spuffy is concerned and that's Seeing Red. I get that something bad was needed, but really? Anyway I digress ... I can't decide as she had (imo) moved on without either of them being a "boyfriend" they were both now just "friends" close ones yes but that's pretty much it.
 
You trying to start a 'ship war? 😳

I think everyone knows my preference - Spike, of course. Spike was, is and will always be a better match for Buffy.

Her and Angel were cute, and I do not doubt they loved eachother, but at the end of the day, Spike is a better choice.
 
Btvs fan said:
Fixed 😉😛
Click to expand...


nahhh...we know its a lie.


angel and buffy had better romantic chemistry. we know that. they redefined what a love story was in the 90s. it also helped sarah and david were bangel shippers, so they made it more believable. sarah even cried in real life when bangel broke up in i will remember you and the prom.

season 3 and 2 are the most acclaimed buffy seasons. season 6 and 7 are the weakest.

their love story was a lot more oringal. spike and buffy has been redone before many times on tv. the bad boy falls in love with the girl trope and they start of hating each other.

buffy and angel are more iconic, despite spike and buffy having fans, bangel is the face of the buffyverse when it come to romance


we can have our preferences but we cant argue with facts.
 
AngelBuffy said:
nahhh...we know its a lie.


angel and buffy had better romantic chemistry. we know that. they redefined what a love story was in the 90s. it also helped sarah and david were bangel shippers, so they made it more believable. sarah even cried in real life when bangel broke up in i will remember you and the prom.

season 3 and 2 are the most acclaimed buffy seasons. season 6 and 7 are the weakest.

their love story was a lot more oringal. spike and buffy has been redone before many times on tv. the bad boy falls in love with the girl trope and they start of hating each other.

buffy and angel are more iconic, despite spike and buffy having fans, bangel is the face of the buffyverse when it come to romance


we can have our preferences but we cant argue with facts.
Click to expand...

Nooe not a lie

Those aren't facts they're your opinion and I completely disagree. B/A was just Twilight mk1. Those type if romances are 10 a penny , over the top and melodramatic and very boring. The writers were even parodying it in Buffy S3.

I much prefer the Han Solo/Princess Leia style chemistry relationship of Spike/Buffy. It was more fun and the chemistry was just as strong albeit in a different way. It was also happening in S5 and even S4 with Something Blue.

Also a big difference is that Spuffy happened organically inspite of the writers not wanting to do it yet it still did. They didn't even want people to like it or root for it when they did it (through gritted teeth) yet people did.

They had chemistry I'll give them that but I think the chemistry was better with Spike/Buffy.

Also Iv never heard DB say he's a Bangel shipper or even a shipper at all I doubt he cares tbh
 
Btvs fan said:
Nooe not a lie

Those aren't facts they're your opinion and I completely disagree. B/A was just Twilight mk1. Those type if romances are 10 a penny , over the top and melodramatic and very boring. The writers were even parodying it in Buffy S3.

I much prefer the Han Solo/Princess Leia style chemistry relationship of Spike/Buffy. It was more fun and the chemistry was just as strong albeit in a different way. It was also happening in S5 and even S4 with Something Blue.

Also a big difference is that Spuffy happened organically inspite of the writers not wanting to do it yet it still did. They didn't even want people to like it or root for it when they did it (through gritted teeth) yet people did.

They had chemistry I'll give them that but I think the chemistry was better with Spike/Buffy.

Also Iv never heard DB say he's a Bangel shipper or even a shipper at all I doubt he cares tbh
Click to expand...





Interesting comment but I'm gonna completely disagree with you in comparing Buffy and Spike with Princess Leia and Han Solo.

The ONLY sort of similarity between them is they mutually dislike one another at first sight and even that's a stretch at best.

Han went to save Leia. Yeah he got paid for it but that was his mission. They argue but that could also be seen as the start of their mutual attraction towards one another.

They quickly grew to respect one another even though they bickered. And they were equal partners where they both shared in the responsibility of leading teams. I don't see how this is anything like Buffy and Spike when they where 'together'.
 
Btvs fan said:
Nooe not a lie

Those aren't facts they're your opinion and I completely disagree. B/A was just Twilight mk1. Those type if romances are 10 a penny , over the top and melodramatic and very boring. The writers were even parodying it in Buffy S3.

I much prefer the Han Solo/Princess Leia style chemistry relationship of Spike/Buffy. It was more fun and the chemistry was just as strong albeit in a different way. It was also happening in S5 and even S4 with Something Blue.

Also a big difference is that Spuffy happened organically inspite of the writers not wanting to do it yet it still did. They didn't even want people to like it or root for it when they did it (through gritted teeth) yet people did.

They had chemistry I'll give them that but I think the chemistry was better with Spike/Buffy.

Also Iv never heard DB say he's a Bangel shipper or even a shipper at all I doubt he cares tbh
Click to expand...


you are right B/A is like twilight. in fact I always felt twilight was a weak version of buffy. spike and buffy are more like jacob and bella. when you think of the good things about spuffy.

buffy and spike are nothing like han and leia. han solo was actually a good person and had purpose and never hated leia at some point. infact han and leia are more like bangel. they were both good people and you can tell there were feelings there from the start. buffy and spike are more like chuck and blair or damien and elena or pacey and joey. as said, it has been done before many times on this young tv shows. the bad boy falls in love with the good girl who originally hates him and changes his ways so she can love him.

spuffy never happen organically infact it was the most random since the writers could not kill spike off due to his popularity among female fans. also spike falling for his greatest rival's ex? how many people win the lottery twice? spuffy was a way to retell another angel and buffy but it fell short. in the real world there is little chance that buffy will fall for a vampire twice.

buffy and angel was more organic since it was building slowly since season 1, the feelings were already there. they even had many failed first dates and many set backs before they got together. spike and buffy was so random. it was just like boom...he had a dream about buffy now he is obsessed. at that point you could tell the writers were trying to give spike something to do , to excuse why he has not been killed off yet when he should have by the end of season 4

lastly DB is a BA shipper.
 
AngelBuffy said:
you are right B/A is like twilight. in fact I always felt twilight was a weak version of buffy. spike and buffy are more like jacob and bella. when you think of the good things about spuffy.

buffy and spike are nothing like han and leia. han solo was actually a good person and had purpose and never hated leia at some point. infact han and leia are more like bangel. they were both good people and you can tell there were feelings there from the start. buffy and spike are more like chuck and blair or damien and elena or pacey and joey. as said, it has been done before many times on this young tv shows. the bad boy falls in love with the good girl who originally hates him and changes his ways so she can love him.

spuffy never happen organically infact it was the most random since the writers could not kill spike off due to his popularity among female fans. also spike falling for his greatest rival's ex? how many people win the lottery twice? spuffy was a way to retell another angel and buffy but it fell short. in the real world there is little chance that buffy will fall for a vampire twice.

buffy and angel was more organic since it was building slowly since season 1, the feelings were already there. they even had many failed first dates and many set backs before they got together. spike and buffy was so random. it was just like boom...he had a dream about buffy now he is obsessed. at that point you could tell the writers were trying to give spike something to do , to excuse why he has not been killed off yet when he should have by the end of season 4

lastly DB is a BA shipper.
Click to expand...

Lol Han and Leia are nothing like Bangel. You even admitted that it was like Twilight. Han is not broody or angsty by any stretch. Han was a hard bitten mercenary who only cared about himself who developed feelings and gradually learnt to care. Very similar to Spike there.

B/S is nothing like B/A and no they weren't random. And what first dates, the only one I can think of was Enemies where he took her to an Adult film.

Lol in the real world Vampires dont exist so she wouldn't even be falling for a Vampire once 🙂

Yes they were looking for things for Spike to do and it worked. It's the most talked about relationship even today. Team Angel v Team Spike arguments are still going on 16 years after the show ended.

Fine if you say so, I'll accept it, just give me a link to an interview
 
CHK DeWilSon said:
Interesting comment but I'm gonna completely disagree with you in comparing Buffy and Spike with Princess Leia and Han Solo.

The ONLY sort of similarity between them is they mutually dislike one another at first sight and even that's a stretch at best.

Han went to save Leia. Yeah he got paid for it but that was his mission. They argue but that could also be seen as the start of their mutual attraction towards one another.

They quickly grew to respect one another even though they bickered. And they were equal partners where they both shared in the responsibility of leading teams. I don't see how this is anything like Buffy and Spike when they where 'together'.
Click to expand...

Han the hard bitten cynical mercenary who only cares about himself meets the self righteous warrior princess leader whose trying to save the galaxy. Dislike turns to attraction then to love. Sound familiar ?

And that is what happened between Buffy and Spike.

Well they were always sexually attracted to each other. JM admitted he always played it that way and didn't SMG originally round S4/5 time asking for a relationship with Spike but Joss at the time said no more Vampires. Seems like the dislike is with how the writers did it as opposed to actually having it
 
Oh god please Han and Leia is NOT Spuffy. Han never tried to kill Leia for his century old love, Han didn't stalk Leia and build a Princess-bot.
Most importantly Han and Leia are contrasts but equal. Spike was not an equal to Buffy nor was he ever treated as such.

The Bangel/Twilight similarities are superficial at best 'cause high school/vampires. Can we not compare a kick-ass, layered heroine like Buffy to a beige mouth-breather like Bella. Bangel was first and was also vastly superior in terms of writing and execution.
 
thetopher said:
Oh god please Han and Leia is NOT Spuffy. Han never tried to kill Leia for his century old love, Han didn't stalk Leia and build a Princess-bot.
Most importantly Han and Leia are contrasts but equal. Spike was not an equal to Buffy nor was he ever treated as such.

The Bangel/Twilight similarities are superficial at best 'cause high school/vampires. Can we not compare a kick-ass, layered heroine like Buffy to a beige mouth-breather like Bella. Bangel was first and was also vastly superior in terms of writing and execution.
Click to expand...

Your right they are superficial. 28 yr old Edward didn't stare at 15 yr old Bella from a blacked out car and decide to fall in love with her and start grooming her from then on. Or always make decisions on Buffy's behalf without involving Buffy. No your absolutely right I agree 🙂
 
Btvs fan said:
Lol Han and Leia are nothing like Bangel. You even admitted that it was like Twilight. Han is not broody or angsty by any stretch. Han was a hard bitten mercenary who only cared about himself who developed feelings and gradually learnt to care. Very similar to Spike there.

B/S is nothing like B/A and no they weren't random. And what first dates, the only one I can think of was Enemies where he took her to an Adult film.

Lol in the real world Vampires dont exist so she wouldn't even be falling for a Vampire once 🙂

Yes they were looking for things for Spike to do and it worked. It's the most talked about relationship even today. Team Angel v Team Spike arguments are still going on 16 years after the show ended.

Fine if you say so, I'll accept it, just give me a link to an interview
Click to expand...


I said buffy is a superior version of twilight.

i never said han and leia were exactly like bangel but there are more similarities than spuffy

their first date fail was in Halloween and later lie to me.

no vamps dont exist but in the real world people dont win the lottery twice


spike worked but bangel worked a lot better. spuffy is only takled about among female fan girls who are obsessed wth spike becaue of the bad boy thing girls like so much. in the real world of better writing, sotry telling and influnce. bangel is talked about more and referenced more in pop culture.

as said the reception of season 2 and 3 speaks for it self.
also add bangel was a more disciplined story. spike by season 7 had reached mary sue territory, i have never seen writers so in love with a character as the writers of season 7 were so in love with spike. spuffy and season 6 and 7 is fan-fiction quality. bangel in season 2 and 3 was pure artistry.
 
AngelBuffy said:
I said buffy is a superior version of twilight.

i never said han and leia were exactly like bangel but there are more similarities than spuffy

their first date fail was in Halloween and later lie to me.

no vamps dont exist but in the real world people dont win the lottery twice


spike worked but bangel worked a lot better. spuffy is only takled about among female fan girls who are obsessed wth spike becaue of the bad boy thing girls like so much. in the real world of better writing, sotry telling and influnce. bangel is talked about more and referenced more in pop culture.

as said the reception of season 2 and 3 speaks for it self.
also add bangel was a more disciplined story. spike by season 7 had reached mary sue territory, i have never seen writers so in love with a character as the writers of season 7 were so in love with spike. spuffy and season 6 and 7 is fan-fiction quality. bangel in season 2 and 3 was pure artistry.
Click to expand...

Obsessed female fan girls 😡
Who are you to criticise people for what couples, they do or do not like in a fantasy show. Fine you're B/A and you don't like Spuffy but don't say that about other fans simply because they think/ like things differently to you.
 
AngelBuffy said:
I said buffy is a superior version of twilight.

i never said han and leia were exactly like bangel but there are more similarities than spuffy

their first date fail was in Halloween and later lie to me.

no vamps dont exist but in the real world people dont win the lottery twice


spike worked but bangel worked a lot better. spuffy is only takled about among female fan girls who are obsessed wth spike becaue of the bad boy thing girls like so much. in the real world of better writing, sotry telling and influnce. bangel is talked about more and referenced more in pop culture.

as said the reception of season 2 and 3 speaks for it self.
also add bangel was a more disciplined story. spike by season 7 had reached mary sue territory, i have never seen writers so in love with a character as the writers of season 7 were so in love with spike. spuffy and season 6 and 7 is fan-fiction quality. bangel in season 2 and 3 was pure artistry.
Click to expand...

Everyone is allowed their opinion, but please try to stay away from generalizing about people like this, "female fan girls who are obsessed wth spike becaue of the bad boy thing girls like so much", we can all do better when it comes to things like this, I know I can, and we should keep in mind that there are plenty of reasons why people were either attracted to Spike or Spuffy (or other ships).

Let's remember that having a favorite ship and thinking it works better, doesn't have to mean disparaging others for prefering another. Let's keep it about the ships, not the fans personally.
 
Taake said:
Everyone is allowed their opinion, but please try to stay away from generalizing about people like this, "female fan girls who are obsessed wth spike becaue of the bad boy thing girls like so much", we can all do better when it comes to things like this, I know I can, and we should keep in mind that there are plenty of reasons why people were either attracted to Spike or Spuffy (or other ships).

Let's remember that having a favorite ship and thinking it works better, doesn't have to mean disparaging others for prefering another. Let's keep it about the ships, not the fans personally.
Click to expand...



I was not generalizing but it is very common and true that most bad boy characters have a legion of fan girls and these fan girls are the drivers of the ship they like. even JK Rolwing noticed it in her harry potter series commenting on Draco Malfoys legion of fan girls. jk rowling said it bothered her. she never got why girls will want hermione with draco or why girls loved draco. good thing harry potter became global phenomenon and was not reduced to a TV CW/WB show, because the showed would have ruined harry and ron just to prop up draco and let him get with hermione.


its a pattern

pacey from dawson creek

damon from vampire dairies

chuck bass from gossip girl

draco from harry potter

if you notice, in all the shows, many of their female fans really wanted these boys to end up with the main girl. when it was clear the relationship was unhealthy. i think it is more of young females fantasy. girls love bad boy characters and think they can change them or something.

also outside of harry potter, this bad boy characters went on to ruin their shows because they started getting too much focus and attention above other characters. season 7 of buffy was a spike worship season. other characters became written to be stupid and lame so the bad boys could shine and look more worthy for the girl. see the buffy episode were they all decided to kick her out of her own house including dawn, giles, willow and spike was the only one who had her back.

notice also in buffy, once the spike obsession started in season 5, the writers ruined riley to make way for the spuffy thing.
this is part of the reason i like angel better and felt he was more right for buffy because angel tells buffy, he had no interests in bad girls like faith. he wanted buffy to go to the light. unlike spike who wanted buffy to embrace his darkness.

men don't really obesses over bad girls,

women should stop obsessing over bad boys.


......................

what is up with the spell check on this forum?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top Bottom