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Did anyone else hate Dawn in this season?

Faith 2019

Woman verses Woman
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373
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Dawn was not really Buffy's sister, she was dropped in as being the key. Buffy accepted her, and talk about her being the key was dropped. It was not good writing how she was dropped into the series.
 

DeadlyDuo

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Dawn was not really Buffy's sister, she was dropped in as being the key. Buffy accepted her, and talk about her being the key was dropped. It was not good writing how she was dropped into the series.
I agree. I think Dawn should've been Buffy's cousin who ended up having to live with Joyce and Buffy. Add in a tragic reason why, and then you've got a conflict where Buffy is annoyed by Dawn but can't really say anything about it because of the tragic reason.
 

ChaseRules

When it comes to dating I the Slayer.
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Sineya
True . They could have said that Joyce younger sister was Dawn mother so Buffy would have know & not want to get her mom mad at her because of what had happened to Dawn.
 

S Rou

Potential
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True . They could have said that Joyce younger sister was Dawn mother so Buffy would have know & not want to get her mom mad at her because of what had happened to Dawn.
Your name has me wondering how Cordelia would act towards dawn if they met... How would.they get along? That would be interesting.
 

ChaseRules

When it comes to dating I the Slayer.
Joined
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6,715
Sineya
Agreed . Would it be funny if Cordelia & Dawn bonded & were more like sisters to each other then Dawn & Buffy was

What do you think ?
 
NeonSlayer
NeonSlayer
I think it would be sad. It would be like Connor bonding more with Spike or Xander than he does with Angel.
FaithLehane16
FaithLehane16
There is a gifset of them bonding in an alternative universe on tumblr.

FaithLehane16

"Five by Five."
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Dawn was not really Buffy's sister, she was dropped in as being the key. Buffy accepted her, and talk about her being the key was dropped. It was not good writing how she was dropped into the series.
It was crappy writing, which is why I dislike this season the most.
 

QueenVictoria

Townie
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Oct 11, 2018
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London
I never disliked Dawn, in any season, but I now know that I am not the majority.

In case you were not aware, Dawn was originally written as an 8-10 year old, but Joss decided to cast Michelle and apparently also decided not to re-write the role, for some reason.
That makes perfect sense. I wasn't aware that Dawn was originally supposed to be younger. I know teenagers can be bratty but I have NEVER met a teenager who behaved liked Dawn did. It's kind of hard to put into words... It actually creeped me out to see a teenager acting like she had the mental age of a little girl of 7 or 8.
 

thrasherpix

Scooby
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Anyone of any age can be that way. A few months ago I had to deal with a guy with the LITERAL maturity of a toddler, always shouting, screaming, throwing things, and crying. Unsurprisingly, he's homeless (and I'd guess mid-20s). I see him from time to time and also unsurprisingly he seems to have no friends. He's the most extreme example I can think of an adult like that but I've known plenty of adults and teens (though a distinct minority) who act more or less about like Dawn.

But fans just aren't going to convince me that's normal (not on a day by day basis) teen behavior, or if they do for their area then I will reconsider my position that considers corporal punishment something to be avoided. And verbal and witty skills aside, the teens in the early seasons of Buffy--or even Lizzie McGuire--were much more relatable to being teens (as opposed to drooling ice cream or having screaming fits like that). I've seen teens act like her on YT but it's like "what a freak" or "look how bad I can troll my sibling to make him totally lose it." Not "I remember being that way at 14 in 8th grade" anyway. It would seem a lot more natural and believable to me if she were under 10, at least in season 5.

That said, I still find her plausible (especially in season 6 where she's worse, but with reason), and have come up with two headcanons for it. The simpler one is that ascetic monks would envision a girl Dawn's age that way (they probably would) and so created her that way and made it seem normal to those around her. The complex version is that Dawn and her friends would be natural targets for Angelus and even bad Faith and the Mayor (in addition to their own supernatural hijinks) so that Dawn felt the only friends she could have (may even need them for survival) was her older sister and the Scoobies, in addition to being much closer to her mother as she was than many 14-year-olds and that could do much to explain her behavior.
 

DeadlyDuo

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@thrasherpix Even 4 year olds can eat ice cream neater than Dawn did.

It annoys me that Dawn did nothing to help Buffy in Season 6. Even when social services were breathing down Buffy's neck, Dawn did nothing to try and help allieviate the situation eg going to school on time, putting effort into her schoolwork etc. Season 6 was the "throw as much crap at Buffy as you can and watch her struggle to deal with it" season. Buffy struggling with being resurrected was enough for her to deal with but nope, got to add an unhealthy sexual relationship, financial worries, a complete lack of support from the scoobies, an unappealing job, a bratty sister, and social services threatening to take Dawn away on top of that because otherwise Buffy just isn't miserable enough.
 
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Black Thorn
My brother is 14 and worse behaved than Dawn (not joking - tantrums and everything) so for that reason, it makes Dawn look that much better.
 

telperion66

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If I ever watch Buffy for the seasons with Dawn in them, its for vastly different reasons to why I watch the first three seasons.

The first season has a great energy about it which is a world away from the type of show they developed while Dawn was on the show.

The second and third seasons are cathartic for me in terms of their depiction of Buffy and Angel's romance; this is primarily why I watch them.

I like the seasons with Dawn a lot less, however I appreciate them from a different perspective, for example for the "delicate" dialogue and increased sensitivity the characters seem to have toward one another during this era. It might not have the same intensity or energy, but there are some good, different things about the show in the later seasons.
 

Btvs fan

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I always think Dawn was a 1 season character and the writers didn't have a clue what to do with her post S5.
 

DeadlyDuo

Scooby
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I always think Dawn was a 1 season character and the writers didn't have a clue what to do with her post S5.
Season 7 was very kind to Dawn and retroactively makes her more likeable in her earlier appearances, though sometimes I think it is the actors performance that carries the character at times because the writing does them no favours (It's not just Dawn that suffers from this).

The main issue with Dawn in Season 5 is that she's supposed to be sooooooooooo important to Buffy (even though she's never been seen or heard of before) despite being written as an annoyance (supposedly in the way younger siblings are annoying) yet the audience has no emotional attachment to the character because she just suddenly exists. The writers want the audience to feel for her (again why an actors performance is so important) but the way they have the other characters kind of fawn over her even when she's being a brat makes it difficult to like her. I find Season 5 to be an overrated season, there's good episodes so it's not completely without merit, but the overall storyline in regards to Dawn is not that great and it would've made a crap final season if Buffy had ended with the slayer sacrificing her life for a randomly inserted character (which is what Dawn was in Season 5). Dawn's personality isn't even one where you could say that she could've been in the earlier seasons just off screen eg if she stays in her room a lot, but the characters act as if she's always been there and the writers expect the audience to do so too.

Season 6 is Dawn's worst season because of the fact that she does absolutely nothing to help Buffy in any way. She complains that Buffy never spends any time with her but that's because Buffy is having to do everything she can to keep a roof over her and Dawn's heads yet Dawn doesn't even offer to help or try and make things easier. When you have kids in the world younger than Dawn being carers for adult family members with medical conditions, and they take on that responsibility without complaint (even though the adults wish the child didn't have to have the responsibility), it makes Dawn look incredibly selfish and self-centred. She's had a rough year, so what? Buffy's had to face the possibility of her death at 16 and still went to confront the Master, she had to kill Angel to stop Acathla despite him being the love of her life, she lived as a runaway after Joyce couldn't handle the revelation she was a slayer, she had to say goodbye to Angel for good in Season 3 because it was too risky for them to be together. She to was affected by Joyce's death but had to try and hold things together for Dawn and had no help from Hank, meaning she basically became Dawn's guardian and parental figure overnight. Buffy sacrificed herself to save Dawn and was then ripped out of heaven and resurrected by the scoobies where she was then met with mounting debts and the possibility of Dawn being taken away by social services.

Still Buffy tried holding it together (with Spike being her only respite), because she didn't want to burden her friends with the truth that they pulled her out of heaven or that she is struggling to cope. Dawn is old enough where she could've at least gotten a paper round to offer some money to the household and she could've at least tried to turn up to school on time and put the effort in. I don't see why Social services were called on Dawn being late and her grades dropping, that seems more like a conversation the school should be having with Buffy. For all Buffy knows, Dawn could be leaving in plenty of time and says she's going to school when in reality she would be bunking off. Also given Joyce's death, it's a perfectly viable reason for Dawn's drop in grades and something the school should discuss with Buffy rather than setting social services on her. The writers just seemed to want to make Buffy completely miserable in Season 6.

The reason Season 7 Dawn is most liked is because she actually gives a crap about others rather than just herself. If she'd shown that kind of behaviour in Season 5 or 6 then I think people would like her more in those seasons rather than Season 7 having to do the legwork.
 

Btvs fan

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Season 7 was very kind to Dawn and retroactively makes her more likeable in her earlier appearances, though sometimes I think it is the actors performance that carries the character at times because the writing does them no favours (It's not just Dawn that suffers from this).

The main issue with Dawn in Season 5 is that she's supposed to be sooooooooooo important to Buffy (even though she's never been seen or heard of before) despite being written as an annoyance (supposedly in the way younger siblings are annoying) yet the audience has no emotional attachment to the character because she just suddenly exists. The writers want the audience to feel for her (again why an actors performance is so important) but the way they have the other characters kind of fawn over her even when she's being a brat makes it difficult to like her. I find Season 5 to be an overrated season, there's good episodes so it's not completely without merit, but the overall storyline in regards to Dawn is not that great and it would've made a crap final season if Buffy had ended with the slayer sacrificing her life for a randomly inserted character (which is what Dawn was in Season 5). Dawn's personality isn't even one where you could say that she could've been in the earlier seasons just off screen eg if she stays in her room a lot, but the characters act as if she's always been there and the writers expect the audience to do so too.

Season 6 is Dawn's worst season because of the fact that she does absolutely nothing to help Buffy in any way. She complains that Buffy never spends any time with her but that's because Buffy is having to do everything she can to keep a roof over her and Dawn's heads yet Dawn doesn't even offer to help or try and make things easier. When you have kids in the world younger than Dawn being carers for adult family members with medical conditions, and they take on that responsibility without complaint (even though the adults wish the child didn't have to have the responsibility), it makes Dawn look incredibly selfish and self-centred. She's had a rough year, so what? Buffy's had to face the possibility of her death at 16 and still went to confront the Master, she had to kill Angel to stop Acathla despite him being the love of her life, she lived as a runaway after Joyce couldn't handle the revelation she was a slayer, she had to say goodbye to Angel for good in Season 3 because it was too risky for them to be together. She to was affected by Joyce's death but had to try and hold things together for Dawn and had no help from Hank, meaning she basically became Dawn's guardian and parental figure overnight. Buffy sacrificed herself to save Dawn and was then ripped out of heaven and resurrected by the scoobies where she was then met with mounting debts and the possibility of Dawn being taken away by social services.

Still Buffy tried holding it together (with Spike being her only respite), because she didn't want to burden her friends with the truth that they pulled her out of heaven or that she is struggling to cope. Dawn is old enough where she could've at least gotten a paper round to offer some money to the household and she could've at least tried to turn up to school on time and put the effort in. I don't see why Social services were called on Dawn being late and her grades dropping, that seems more like a conversation the school should be having with Buffy. For all Buffy knows, Dawn could be leaving in plenty of time and says she's going to school when in reality she would be bunking off. Also given Joyce's death, it's a perfectly viable reason for Dawn's drop in grades and something the school should discuss with Buffy rather than setting social services on her. The writers just seemed to want to make Buffy completely miserable in Season 6.

The reason Season 7 Dawn is most liked is because she actually gives a crap about others rather than just herself. If she'd shown that kind of behaviour in Season 5 or 6 then I think people would like her more in those seasons rather than Season 7 having to do the legwork.
While I didn't dislike Dawn in S7 i just didn't care. The scenes of her in Conversation with dead people i skip because I find them boring.

It's a shame they dropped her relationship with Spike which was touching and interesting.
 

DeadlyDuo

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It's a shame they dropped her relationship with Spike which was touching and interesting.
I agree. Plus Dawn getting hurt as a result of Spike doing something bad to try and get revenge on Buffy would be the perfect thing to prompt him to go get his soul (if he really had to get it even though he should stay soulless) without the need for the awful AR.
 

AngelBuffy

Townie
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Feb 18, 2019
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20
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Season 7 was very kind to Dawn and retroactively makes her more likeable in her earlier appearances, though sometimes I think it is the actors performance that carries the character at times because the writing does them no favours (It's not just Dawn that suffers from this).

The main issue with Dawn in Season 5 is that she's supposed to be sooooooooooo important to Buffy (even though she's never been seen or heard of before) despite being written as an annoyance (supposedly in the way younger siblings are annoying) yet the audience has no emotional attachment to the character because she just suddenly exists. The writers want the audience to feel for her (again why an actors performance is so important) but the way they have the other characters kind of fawn over her even when she's being a brat makes it difficult to like her. I find Season 5 to be an overrated season, there's good episodes so it's not completely without merit, but the overall storyline in regards to Dawn is not that great and it would've made a crap final season if Buffy had ended with the slayer sacrificing her life for a randomly inserted character (which is what Dawn was in Season 5). Dawn's personality isn't even one where you could say that she could've been in the earlier seasons just off screen eg if she stays in her room a lot, but the characters act as if she's always been there and the writers expect the audience to do so too.

Season 6 is Dawn's worst season because of the fact that she does absolutely nothing to help Buffy in any way. She complains that Buffy never spends any time with her but that's because Buffy is having to do everything she can to keep a roof over her and Dawn's heads yet Dawn doesn't even offer to help or try and make things easier. When you have kids in the world younger than Dawn being carers for adult family members with medical conditions, and they take on that responsibility without complaint (even though the adults wish the child didn't have to have the responsibility), it makes Dawn look incredibly selfish and self-centred. She's had a rough year, so what? Buffy's had to face the possibility of her death at 16 and still went to confront the Master, she had to kill Angel to stop Acathla despite him being the love of her life, she lived as a runaway after Joyce couldn't handle the revelation she was a slayer, she had to say goodbye to Angel for good in Season 3 because it was too risky for them to be together. She to was affected by Joyce's death but had to try and hold things together for Dawn and had no help from Hank, meaning she basically became Dawn's guardian and parental figure overnight. Buffy sacrificed herself to save Dawn and was then ripped out of heaven and resurrected by the scoobies where she was then met with mounting debts and the possibility of Dawn being taken away by social services.
And don't forget dawn turned out to be kind of worthless anyway since buffy herself was also the key or had key blood that could close the portal. so basically glory never needed dawn, buffy was already a key meaning dawn did not even need to be created.

you are right to say season 5 is overated moslty, the central writing and main plot of the season that is moslty about dawn and the key was terribly constructed.
 

thrasherpix

Scooby
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Mar 13, 2016
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Someone here did a "rewrite" of season 5 that I thought was awesome, but I don't know where it was posted (apparently not in this forum, if it was then it diverged from the threat topic).
 
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