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Spike or Angel.

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Mrs Gordo

Bangel extremist...
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this was just after he'd taken away 1000% of her agency by taking back that one 'perfect day' because he decided he'd rather rescue her than be her partner. Buffy was quite capable of having a say in that. I think the truth was Angel didn't know what to do with human weakness, and ran screaming back to take back the day (and of course, if he'd stopped being a demon, there would have been no series, so they had to do it) but... he took any choice from her. THAT IS NOT A RELATIONSHIP AT ALL.

Relationships have MUTUALITY.

They are between two people. He didn't give her any say. Yes, it was his life, and he had a right to want to go back to being a vampire... but he didn't even let her keep the memory... b/c apparently she was too fragile to remember having a good day -- but somehow he wasn't.
I think it’s neverendingly hilarious how you twist the narrative to suit your position. Angel accepted the oracles offer to take back the day TO SAVE BUFFY’S LIFE. Did you miss that part? How would you or the audience have felt of Angel had walked away from the comversation with the oracles where they told him that she would die sooner if he remained human? He recognizes the importance of Buffy’s life is more important than anything else and he can’t be the reason she dies. And that’s a bad thing? Do you honestly think an ensouled Spike would not have done the same thing? Give his life in exchange for Buffy’s?

And again in your assertion that Angel doesn’t allow Buffy to keep the memories, when exactly was that offer presented to him? The oracles made him a deal, there was no option where he specifically asked that Buffy not remember.

If you are critical of Angel for not telling Buffy about the day that never happened that is a different issue entirely. But either way what purpose does it serve for Buffy to remember something that never even happened? Something the oracles deem “a burden”? When Buffy was killing Angel in s2, she spared him knowing he was about to die so they could share in some peaceful moments before she killed him. Buffy talks in IWRY about how she wouldn’t tell Angel about chocolate because he couldn’t enjoy it as a vamp. Angel telling Buffy that they could have had it all it it would only cost her life, serves no purpose but to cause her pain (I suppose the other purpose it would serve would be to explain to her that he had sacrificed the humanity he had longed for so that she would live... but that kind of “look what I did for you” is really more Spike’s speed.)

Then there's Forever... well, he came, he comforted, he left. Maybe he should have stayed and helped out with the worse threat she'd ever faced?
Did you not hear the part where Angel said he would stay as long as Buffy needed him? And the part where she told him to leave because of their continued feelings for each other? Did you want Angel to ignore Buffy’s wishes and stay despite her instructions of him to go? Weren’t you just talking about the importance of respecting Buffy’s agency?
 

DeepBlueJoy

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I'd go with the the grownup, not the supplicant.
Angel can, at the very least, challenge Buffy as well as being quite capable of supporting her. Spike never challenges her because he's 'Love's Bitch'; he can't. He 'got a soul for her'. He won't stand up TO Buffy, which is vital if an adult relationship is to be built on equality.

You see it in the comics, Buffy still needs that sort of thing. What if Giles or her friends had never, ever called her on her bullshit? She'd be alone or dead is what.
Compared to their really, really bad ideas? They make some serious mistakes and unlike them, she does not humiliate or hurt them.
To support Spuffy is to think that Buffy has no character flaws, which is nonsense. For all its 'maturity' and 'adult themes' Spuffy seems a fundamentally childish (or perhaps overly-romantic?) view of two grown-ups in a supposed relationship. (snip)
Yeah, no. Consider the situation she was in. EVERYONE else was against her... for something she was right about, btw. Of course, he didn't confront her then. But he did say things that were provocative, that made her think. He didn't need to question her every move and he didn't need to publicly humiliate her either. She had everyone else for that. Except Spike, Faith and Angel. Faith took up the mantle when asked to, but she and Spike were unique in not undercutting Buffy.

Her friends disemboweled her in front of strangers. I would never have spoken to them again. I'd have called up Angel and maybe Riley, got help elsewhere (because Buffy wouldn't forfeit the world to spite them), and I'd have let them see if they could survive without her.

They would have died. And she could have died too, when they humiliated her and discarded her in a public repudiation. She could easily have been found by bringers or a turok han and cut to pieces. She could easily have said "OK, I'm not wanted, I've been replaced, let them handle it" (the way heroic Angel did with the fear demon in the hotel - abandoning them to their fate b/c they deserved it.(they did, but it was still the wrong thing to do))

But Buffy's a better person than me or Angel. They did not deserve her. And no one ever even recognized their extreme violation of her or apologized. She was right. She had the solution. They treated her like dirt, and undercut her, and tried to take any support she might have. She choose to come back after they screwed up, instead of wiping the dirt off her sandals and moving on.

She'd been unseated; by rights, she could have moved on! Or kicked the whole ungrateful lot out of her house.

Instead, she chose to keep working. Find the scythe and rescue them when they screwed up... and choose to share her power with the ungrateful, disrespectful strangers.

If Buffy had walked away and Faith had died, they would have gotten another slayer. Buffy would not have even been in dereliction. They told her her help was no longer needed or welcome! She left b/c how can you stay when your gutted by friends?

So... Of course, Spike didn't beat up on her.
That wasn't the right answer. (beating up on her was her friend's job!)

No, Buffy is not perfect. Far from it. ( for one thing, she put up with their hostility and dishonesty, and a friend who was willing to mind-wipe her AFTER dragging her out of heaven and leaving her in a coffin to dig herself out! She had way too little assertiveness with her friends for someone so 'powerful'.)

But she didn't deserve the way they treated her. Giles and Willow especially. Both try to control and manipulate her repeatedly and SHE bears the consequences. Dawn was a pill. Both sisters were grieving, but instead of sucking it up and helping Buffy, Dawn sulked and stole stuff for a year. (Xander mostly didn't mistreat Buffy for that year, he just imploded his own life, and then failed to back her when she needed him, but of all the people in that mess in the house, he was the ONLY one who had any justification for anger.)

Yes, Spike may have been a bit too reluctant to confront her at that point, while she had the buzz-saws her friends had become tearing her down. But, I don't really blame him.

Her detractors:

The 'man' who walked away from her in her darkest hour (knowing she had no money and no one else... not parents, not a degree, no way of supporting her sister and she was depressed), tried to kill the person who she trusted - teaming up with a STRANGER with an axe to grind. Even the US knew when to befriend the Russians when WWII happened. Robin was an idiot!

The 'woman', her so called best friend who stole her memory, took the side of a rude, self-centered invader in Buffy's house, who treated Buffy like a doormat in the FIRST moments she met her. Kennedy. She walked in the door with disrespect on her lips. "This is the slayer?" Really? Someone offers you sanctuary -- no, wait! She didn't! You actually offer yourself sanctuary in someone's home and you insult them the first moment you meet, the first words you say as you invade??!! And they wonder why so many people hate Kennedy.

Anyway, so no, Spike didn't confront her, but he was sorting out himself and his mind after the soul AND she was being put through hell. He did offer to go when he saw he was dangerous... He tried to take responsibility. He invited her to kill him.

To be honest, in season seven there were four heroes. Buffy, Spike, Angel and Faith. Others played a role in the drama, but none of them were heroes, IMO. Well, maybe Xander for encouraging Dawn, and for trying to save potentials at the Vineyard at the cost of his eye.

My heroes:

Angel brought the Amulet and asked Buffy what she needed, offered her respect and caring and encouragement - then he left to make sure that what she asked happened.

Faith tried to be the best Faith she could be, and she took on the mantle as best she could when she had leadership for which she had even less practice with than Buffy (who had NO training or support for leading a bunch of scared people without a clue) and Faith didn't even have any practice saving the world or working with a team to do so.

Spike overcame his obstacles... trying to have a clear mind MONTHS after getting a soul (something that must have been overwhelming - it took Angel years to deal with) And then instead of giving into the trigger when reckless-revenge-boy (Wood) tried to bring it out so he had an excuse to murder Spike (He had to try that, b/c other wise he knew he was not killing a bad guy, just getting rid of their strongest ally)

Buffy saved the world by saving the people who treated her with hate, disdain and disrespect... and gave them the gift of slayerness... and she forgave her enemies/betrayers (and that ungrateful sister she'd died for!) and chose to work WITH them all even though they'd proven themselves repeatedly untrustworthy, petty, selfish, backstabbing and incompetent.

They almost got Faith killed - they recklessly did the same thing they told Buffy not to do - go back to the vineyard with a bunch of scared children. (who had been recently traumatized and were no more prepared than before - probably less so, since they were shell-shocked from the first go round.) (NOTE: they never did ask Buffy how she would do it, -- so they don't know that what she had planned was reckless, just that she thought there was something at the Vineyard she needed. They never sat down PRIVATELY and talked like 'senior officers' usually do and discuss their concerns with her like friends/allies do. They didn't strategize WITH her, they just took over her house, spat in her face (Kennedy did), and expected her to save the world while they rode roughshod over her.)

Incidentally, it wasn't Buffy's idea to have the whole pile of girls thrust onto her. They made her job harder. She made mistakes with them, but she did the best she could. In retrospect she shouldn't have taken them to the Vineyard, but who was training her in officer leadership 101? Oh, yeah, not the person who just betrayed her. Nope, Giles had already proven he would stab her in the back AFTER dropping all these women on her and asking her to mind them. She wasn't a babysitter! So she did the best with what she had... which is all anyone can do when you have the keystone slayer brigade crying for mommy!!

She took some of them with her to the Vineyard... They were what she had and it was a WAR! Of course, in retrospect it was a mistake, but when you don't have competent teachers, you learn by doing... and green lieutenants learn by killing off the canon fodder, unfortunately, and she was plenty green... and that was NOT her fault.

It was GILES' fault.

Frankly, Giles should have taken a few of those council millions and hired a bunch of mercenaries to protect the potentials, and brought a bunch of mercs with him to help Buffy (but that would not have been nearly as interesting, or as tragic!) but GILES brought the idiot girl brigade to the mouth of HELL and expected ONE girl to protect them, while she was saving the world from the worst threat it had ever faced... and we called Buffy's tactical decisions stupid?!

Then they encouraged Faith to go back to the Vineyard.

Both Faith and Buffy were thrown in the deep with a bunch of panicky human millstones and expected to swim. Of course they failed! It's a testimony to both Buffy and Faith's strength that they survived at all. They were treated as expendables. I really think Giles needed a Council-ectomy this season.

Honorable hero mention: Riley and the US military! They showed up, de-chipped Spike and didn't try to take over the operation because they knew just how badly they'd ballsed things up the last time they'd been in Sunnydale.

No, choosing Spuffy doesn't mean Buffy is flawless. That doesn't even make sense. I like Buffy and Spike together because they seem real, and they actually seem to bring out the best in each other. They're a messy human scale relationship with bad behavior on both sides. What's worthwhile about them is that they grow through all the stuff they go through and they help each other again and again.

Buffy changes both Spike and Angel for the better -
and I think they change her for the better too, though being with Angel also leaves her mistrusting her ability to be a partner without it ending in a mess.

But after what happens, it is Angel doesn't want a relationship with Buffy. Frankly, it's understandable. What was their highlight? When they made love and he turned into a ravening beast, or when she sent him to hell for untold numbers of years? How do you get past that, even if you love someone? He is the one who walks away. And though we know he cares, he's the one who chooses not to try to get his soul anchored AND he's the one who chooses to rewind the one perfect day.

Spike and Buffy work well together... as friends and as colleagues. And yes, he is the XO, not the leader in the relationship, and in the fight. And that's not a problem for me. Every leader needs an XO. Picard needed Riker. Buffy has major insecurities and her friends feed these. Spike champions Buffy and lifts her up.

I personally think it's a GOOD thing that Spike is there to support her when she faces her darkest hours. If I had her job, I'd want and need someone in my corner too.

Just think what would have happened that night, had Spike not found Buffy in that house. Would she have possibly given up? Died alone? Left Sunnydale, feeling there was nothing more for her to do? Instead, he ENERGIZED and EMPOWERED her. That is what friends do. That's what partners do.

The rest of the world will always be ready to attack us. I don't think it's a crime to have a partner who takes your corner. I have had one of those... it actually makes you try HARDER to be your best self. And it makes you feel like you can go after your dreams... and actually helps you accomplish stuff. Not everything can be accomplished by criticism and condemnation.

Sometimes, we do need to be challenged... But we ALWAYS need to be loved and supported.
 

DeepBlueJoy

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I think it’s neverendingly hilarious how you twist the narrative to suit your position. Angel accepted the oracles offer to take back the day TO SAVE BUFFY’S LIFE. Did you miss that part? How would you or the audience have felt of Angel had walked away from the comversation with the oracles where they told him that she would die sooner if he remained human? He recognizes the importance of Buffy’s life is more important than anything else and he can’t be the reason she dies. And that’s a bad thing? Do you honestly think an ensouled Spike would not have done the same thing? Give his life in exchange for Buffy’s?

And again in your assertion that Angel doesn’t allow Buffy to keep the memories, when exactly was that offer presented to him? The oracles made him a deal, there was no option where he specifically asked that Buffy not remember.

If you are critical of Angel for not telling Buffy about the day that never happened that is a different issue entirely. But either way what purpose does it serve for Buffy to remember something that never even happened? Something the oracles deem “a burden”? When Buffy was killing Angel in s2, she spared him knowing he was about to die so they could share in some peaceful moments before she killed him. Buffy talks in IWRY about how she wouldn’t tell Angel about chocolate because he couldn’t enjoy it as a vamp. Angel telling Buffy that they could have had it all it it would only cost her life, serves no purpose but to cause her pain (I suppose the other purpose it would serve would be to explain to her that he had sacrificed the humanity he had longed for so that she would live... but that kind of “look what I did for you” is really more Spike’s speed.)



Did you not hear the part where Angel said he would stay as long as Buffy needed him? And the part where she told him to leave because of their continued feelings for each other? Did you want Angel to ignore Buffy’s wishes and stay despite her instructions of him to go? Weren’t you just talking about the importance of respecting Buffy’s agency?
When did he save her life? I know they said it, but I didn't see it. She survived the fight. When did he save her?

And Buffy really didn't ask to forget that day, even if he chose to take it back.

Sorry, not telling someone about something as insignificant as a foodstuff is not morally equivalent to stealing a day from her -- maybe for her at the time, the most important day of her life. And it's a pattern with Angel, stealing people's history from them by stealing their memories. When Willow mind wipes Buffy it's wrong. It's a violation. We are OUR MEMORIES. It's why dimentia is such a tragedy. When Angel does it, it's still wrong. Her remembering would have been hard, but it would have been RIGHT. It's not the act of becoming human again that is wrong, but that he keeps it from her.

She spared him a painful death for the thing HE CAUSED. She only had to kill him b/c of his action as Angelus. She was being loving by not causing him to suffer in his last moments.

He could have stayed as long as she needed had he bothered to get his soul anchored. And there would have been no confusion. He didn't try b/c he didn't want to, for whatever reason. I think that being KILLED by your lover kinda is hard to get past. I think turning into a monster when you make love is hard to get past. I think they loved each other, but it was OVER. And just as many people get divorced from people they LOVE, b/c they are only gonna hurt each other if they don't, that doesn't mean the divorce is a bad idea. Some people just aren't good for each other. I do understand that you like Angel better for her than Spike, so let us just move on. This isn't going to change anyone's mind.

I personally learn a lot when I try to understand why people see things differently.

And I'm NOT TWISTING ANYTHING any more than YOU ARE because my OPINION IS, AND WILL REMAIN DIFFERENT. I will stand up for my opinion 100% every time. I don't need to denigrate yours. I give examples for why I believe what I believe, and you give yours. I don't need to attack you to hold my opinion. You view it differently. That is fine. I won't accuse you of twisting anything. I will examine the NARRATIVE of this TOTAL FICTION and come to my own viewpoint. Which is as valid as yours and based on me reasoning this from the narrative, not trying to see how something's twisted in your reasoning.

Yes, I think all of them are willing to die for each other and others. It's what heroes do. All of them.

Every time Angel lies to a friend or hides reality (from Cordelia, from his friends, from Buffy) there are negative consequences. Every time Willow does it, there are consequences. It's not right any more than roofie-ing someone and causing them to forget what happens is right. It can NEVER be right to take someone's memories. You don't have to tell people stuff you know, and that may or may not be wrong, but taking someone's memories away is always wrong.
 
K
katmobile
I agree with most of what you say but the soul anchoring it just ain't possible. It doesn't make Bangel any more viable but it's not his fault.

Mrs Gordo

Bangel extremist...
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We are OUR MEMORIES. It's why dimentia is such a tragedy. When Angel does it, it's still wrong. Her remembering would have been hard, but it would have been RIGHT. It's not the act of becoming human again that is wrong, but that he keeps it from her.
The reason I say you are twisting things is because you are clearly not using the same set of facts that are set out by the show. Yes true, Angel mind wipes his friends memories for Connor. I’m not disputing that. I am, however, disputing that he mind wiped Buffy’s memory. It. Did. Not. Happen. He made a decision to rewind the day so that they say never occurred. He basically time traveled. The oracles didn’t give him the option of picking and choosing who else would keep the memories of a day that NEVER HAPPENED. As to whether he saves her, my point is that the messengers for the Powers that Be have told him she WILL die sooner if he is mortal. Had he chosen to ignore that it would have been a dick move. A risk that no one who loves and cares about another person would have taken. So yes, he dies (becomes a vampire) so that she can live. Maybe she would have died the next day, week, month who knows?

He could have stayed as long as she needed had he bothered to get his soul anchored. And there would have been no confusion. He didn't try b/c he didn't want to, for whatever reason.
You continuously make this assertion that Angel is choosing not to be with Buffy because “never anchors his soul.” But there is absolutely no basis in canon to this nor does it make any sense what so ever. He fears Angelus’ escape not just for Buffy’s safety but for the safety of his friends, his son, the world etc. We don’t know what research he undertook to anchor his soul, but it makes no common sense to assume (which is precisely what you are doing) that Angel is making an active choice not to anchor his soul. And that this active choice relates to Buffy. In fact by s4 of AtS he goes back to Buffy and appears interested in discussing their future together (EOD/Chosen) (see also TGIQ where he says he is waiting while Buffy bakes). This means he hasn’t give up hope of being with Buffy despite the curse with his soul. So your theory that he makes an active choice NOT to get a soul because he doesn’t want to be with Buffy makes little sense to me. There is also no evidence of this in canon.
 

RomanticSoul

Frell Me
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We are OUR MEMORIES.
And yet you are fine with Dawn and that whole story, including the mind wiping of over a decade worth of memories.

#logicfail

Either you think it's wrong period or you don't. No special cases in something like this. Mind wipe is either right or wrong for you but not both.
 
thetopher
thetopher
#logicfail kinda sums up the whole thing really...

DeepBlueJoy

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And yet you are fine with Dawn and that whole story, including the mind wiping of over a decade worth of memories.

#logicfail

Either you think it's wrong period or you don't. No special cases in something like this. Mind wipe is either right or wrong for you but not both.
HUHHH??? what is this decade of mind wipe I supposedly support? I have ZERO idea what you're talking about. And I would never support wiping any memories from anyone.

You are accusing me of something I know nothing about and would never justify.

If you mean that by liking the character of Dawn, I am fine with the fact that their memories were overwritten in order to fit her in, nothing could be further from the truth. I do think that erasing a PERSON to undo the mind alteration would be worse than anything they did inserting her, but I am not pro mind wipe or memory alteration, though it is arguably to save the existence of REALITY -- not just ours, but all realities... so maybe the monks thought it was worth the mess they made. Frankly, when the costs are that high, there's a lot of arguments that could be made that sacrificing the memories of a few hundred people (those likely to have come in contact with Dawn) seems like a small price.
I suppose they could have made her (the Key) a bicycle pump, but it wouldn't have been half as interesting a season!

No idea where you got the idea i supported mind wipes from. It is completely untrue, wrong and ridiculous. Had i been Buffy and discovered that Dawn existed and her existence changed reality, I would be trying to figure out how things were before (as I recall, she did try!!)

But I'm sure of one thing: NONE of the scoobies did this to each other. If a powerful magical group does it to them, it's still wrong, but they have no power over it and none of the scoobies is culpable or guilty of manipulating the others. Dawn's existence wasn't anything any of them did... no bad magic, not time altering and lying to the others. No self serving changes to reality that trapped people in bad situations. (W&H) Most of the mind alterations in the two series were done by one of the members of the group to serve that person's agenda. Whether or not that agenda was a good one, it's wrong.

In the existence of Dawn, none of them tried to do mind control or mind wiping in order to insert Dawn. It was done to them... and last time I looked, they didn't have the power to undo that. And as I recall there were MAJOR consequences from that insertion. Dawn was discombobulated and didn't feel like she belonged. It had major consequences for everyone... including Buffy's death...

so... No, even given what I know about why it was done, I don't think Dawn's existence was an unequivocal good.
 

DeepBlueJoy

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I cannot assume facts not in evidence. Angel did not do anything we don't know he didn't do. Just like no one else did either. Not anything good or bad. We cannot assume anything that canon doesn't support or show evidence for or tell us happened.
 

Mrs Gordo

Bangel extremist...
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We cannot assume anything that canon doesn't support or show evidence for or tell us happened.
That is precisely my point. You’re argument assumes there exists a means to anchor his soul and Angel actively chooses not to pursue this fix. You are assuming “facts not in evidence” when you make such an assertion. The fact is we don’t ever see that there is a means for anchoring his soul.

BUT let me tell you what we do know. We have 6 yrs (more if counting comics) of circumstantial evidence of Angel living in fear of losing his soul. That we have. We have proof of his almost taking his own life because of his fear of becoming a monster again. We have conversations with Wesley and Cordelia in which he discusses the fear of becoming Angelus and we see him making Cordelia promise to kill him if he loses his soul again. We see the palpable fear in his words and in his eyes when they suggest removing his soul in s4 at the idea that Angelus could hurt those he loves the most. This circumstantial evidence is powerful enough to show that had there been a means of anchoring his, soul he would have undertaken it.

And finally, and most convincingly, we have the fact that this is a work of fiction and one in which Angel having a super duper nifty super glued soul benefits no one from a narrative perspective. How then do we explain Buffy and Angel not coming together? It’s what both characters want and can never have and that’s part of the appeal of this sadistic mess. This is nor a unique occurrence in the verse. Insert any and all other ridiculous plot contrivances here starting with why Spike wasn’t staked a dozen times before he was even chipped, the fact that Spike gave up on removing the chip altogether, the Dawn story logistics etc etc.

This notion that Angel intentinally failed to seek a means to resolve his curse, is your personal headcanon but it is not canon.
 

DeepBlueJoy

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That is precisely my point. You’re argument assumes there exists a means to anchor his soul and Angel actively chooses not to pursue this fix. You are assuming “facts not in evidence” when you make such an assertion. The fact is we don’t ever see that there is a means for anchoring his soul.

BUT let me tell you what we do know. We have 6 yrs (more if counting comics) of circumstantial evidence of Angel living in fear of losing his soul. That we have. We have proof of his almost taking his own life because of his fear of becoming a monster again. We have conversations with Wesley and Cordelia in which he discusses the fear of becoming Angelus and we see him making Cordelia promise to kill him if he loses his soul again. We see the palpable fear in his words and in his eyes when they suggest removing his soul in s4 at the idea that Angelus could hurt those he loves the most. This circumstantial evidence is powerful enough to show that had there been a means of anchoring his, soul he would have undertaken it.

And finally, and most convincingly, we have the fact that this is a work of fiction and one in which Angel having a super duper nifty super glued soul benefits no one from a narrative perspective. How then do we explain Buffy and Angel not coming together? It’s what both characters want and can never have and that’s part of the appeal of this sadistic mess. This is nor a unique occurrence in the verse. Insert any and all other ridiculous plot contrivances here starting with why Spike wasn’t staked a dozen times before he was even chipped, the fact that Spike gave up on removing the chip altogether, the Dawn story logistics etc etc.

This notion that Angel intentinally failed to seek a means to resolve his curse, is your personal headcanon but it is not canon.
never said it was deliberate. Just that -- as you plainly state... he hasn't done it... if he had, he wouldn't fear losing it. We see no times where he goes seeking it. When Cordelia is lost in the nether world, he goes looking for her. When she ends up in pylea he follows. We know that Spike sought his soul and yet we never year any time that Angel seeks his. Yes, it is a sorry mess and serves the narrative, though it gets kind of ridiculous that if he really wants his soul superglued that he doesn't even talk to the most powerful witch in the world... or seek out the cave demon Spike went to. We do NOT see him do these things. therefore it is reasonable to conclude he a) didn't do them b) it wasn't a priority or he would have tried it. By the time Spike ends up dying for the world, he's well aware of Spike having his soul and it not being a curse... yet we don't hear anything... It would have been easy for the writers to come up with a reason why Spike's way wouldn't work... I did for one of my stories.

It isn't my head canon that Angel didn't go looking for his soul. It's canon that he didn't. Or we might have heard that he did.
 

EarthLogic

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never said it was deliberate. Just that -- as you plainly state... he hasn't done it... if he had, he wouldn't fear losing it. We see no times where he goes seeking it. When Cordelia is lost in the nether world, he goes looking for her. When she ends up in pylea he follows. We know that Spike sought his soul and yet we never year any time that Angel seeks his. Yes, it is a sorry mess and serves the narrative, though it gets kind of ridiculous that if he really wants his soul superglued that he doesn't even talk to the most powerful witch in the world... or seek out the cave demon Spike went to.
I think you're using Spike's journey as your model and then retrospectively applying it to Angel's. You talk as if Angel should have known there was an African soul-giving demon out there but how could he if the writers hadn't even thought of it until S6?!

If you're going to criticise Angel for not actively doing anything about it then you should equally criticise Buffy - she was in a relationship with him in S3 and you'd think of all people she would look for a way for them to be together. Giles also deserves criticism for not doing anything even though he was well aware of the dangers and was supposed to be the responsible adult of the group as well as being bound by his duties as a Watcher to keep the world safe. Same goes for Wesley, who also had a world of magical knowledge and contacts at his disposal (he could apparently find a Shaman to take the soul but not to anchor it?) but never gave it a thought. Or Cordelia, who was always afraid of Angel losing his soul and voiced those fears loudly and very bluntly many times - she never thought to send Angel to that demon brothel lady who she got her vision-anchoring potion from. She didn't even try and fix his soul with her new superpowers in S3/4....See how far we can go with this? Just because we didn't see any of them do anything about it either should we assume they all 'just didn't want to' as well?

I'm sorry to turn this argument Doylist but I'm afraid it has to go there because there really is no satisfactory in-verse explanation for this as it's such a logic-fail on the part of all the characters. For narrative reasons alone, anchoring Angel's soul was NEVER GOING TO HAPPEN. To do that would mean addressing the Buffy question and that couldn't happen because of the separate shows. You talk as if Angel is wilfully not trying to fix his curse and I don't see where this is coming from because it's not as if we are ever given a sense of Angel's feelings or motivations on why he might be refraining from seeking a solution; it is simply never presented as an idea in anybody's mind so any reasons viewers/fans come up with are purely speculative. It's not as if the writing is showing Angel consciously - or even unconsciously - avoiding a fix in order to explore or reveal something about his character or his views on his curse. The text itself just doesn't interrogate it critically at all. Instead it plays the issue completely straight: Angel has curse -> curse bad -> he and Buffy can't be together. Why? Because the individual narratives require that they be kept apart.

The authorial position is evident when you look at S3, where Bangel's obstacles are hammered home to us by the writing. It's not as if it's just the characters who are shown believing the curse is an impossible problem whereas the wider narrative framing is suggesting to us that the flaw lies in their own understanding of the curse or soul. In fact what we get is kind of the opposite: in 'Choices' Buffy and Angel reassure each other make it work but what the camera shows us by the looks on their faces is that they're both doubtful of it. From all sides what's emphatically pointed out to us is that the curse is a problem, as is the fact that he's a vampire and she's human. At that point in the show's writing, Joss himself was trying to tell us that the vampire romance thing was a big no-no in the long-term and that the show would be moving on from it. It's not until the end of S6 that actively getting a soul (curse-free) even becomes A Thing in the 'verse, so I don't see how people can be expected to just go back to three seasons ago and say 'well hey, how come Angel didn't do that?' Seems a little unfair don't you think?

So the idea that the problem lies with Angel, who is just somehow not making an effort is not based on anything we actually see of his behaviour in the show. It's not something ever interrogated or even hinted at by the text. The only thing the writing later plays with and explores on AtS is the 'no sex' aspect, like in 'Guise Will Be Guise' with the eunuch jokes and Angel going 'the curse isn't even all that clear', or when Wesley tells him in S5 that 99.999% of people have to make do with acceptable happiness.

Now what the writers could have done was to have an episode where Angel (or Willow, or someone else) tries then fails to secure his soul. That way the curse would seem slightly less of a contrivance and we wouldn't all be wondering why he hasn't done anything about it. Even more smart - have that attempt turn out to be dangerous or threaten the life of someone like Willow, which would be a good enough reason for Angel not wanting to take that risk again. Job done. Move on. That's really all they had to do but either they didn't want to or (bizarrely IMO) it never even crossed their minds.

I know I'm way late to the party but just to address a few other points:
he'd taken away 1000% of her agency by taking back that one 'perfect day' because he decided he'd rather rescue her than be her partner.
Nowhere is it shown that that's the crux of his decision. It's not about rescuing her, it's about fighting alongside her without being a liability to her mission (' if I stayed mortal one of us would wind up dead, maybe both of us.'...'you take chances to protect me..') and about being able to protect the people he'd agreed to help in L.A as part of his own mission.

I think the truth was Angel didn't know what to do with human weakness, and ran screaming back to take back the day
He didn't 'run screaming' to take back the day. He didn't even know that the day could be taken back until the Oracles told him. He went back to become a vampire again. The human weakness was an issue, but as I say above it was more to do with what limitations his humanity brought with it with regards to fighting evil, not about the lack of strength itself.

Sorry, not telling someone about something as insignificant as a foodstuff is not morally equivalent to stealing a day from her
I believe what @Mrs Gordo means is that the playful peanut butter remark is a deliberate foreshadowing of what happens at the end of the episode.

And of course, he tangled with Riley. He had given up any say in her life.
Riley goaded him first, blocking Angel's path out of the alley. And Angel didn't make any judgements about Buffy's relationship with Riley. He's obviously jealous but at no point did he try to undermine or criticise it or try to dictate what Buffy should be doing (apart from that 'you sleep with this guy?' comment but tbf Riley was pointing a gun at his face and also it was funny).

just like he did for his friends when he took THEIR memories -- and ended them up trapped in the place they most hated in the world b/c he had to 'save his son' by removing who his son was.
The episode quite pointedly shows evey member of the gang being interested in taking up the offer when shown W&H's shiny new resources . True, Angel wipes their memories of Connor but everything else is left intact. Whne he turns up at the end of Home they're all there still contemplating the deal. And yes, he also makes an executive decision to take the offer, but though I'm no business expert I would assume when a decision like that is made it is with regard to the company. It doesn't affect the free will of the people working there to make a decision about their own positions - they can still choose to stay or leave their jobs. The gang chose to stay. They signed indivdual contracts. I'm still not saying that the memory-wipe was right, mind you - it wasn't, but I don't think it's a simple case of them all being helpless victims trapped by Angel's decision. It actually waters down their individual arcs that season to think that they were.
 
GraceK
GraceK
Lovely post
Antho
Antho
I can read this post again and again.. wish i could give more love to this post <3
FaithLehane16
FaithLehane16
Applause!!

DeadlyDuo

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Spike says that to get his soul he had to "seek out a legend" so it's possible that Angel didn't know about the soul giving demon, otherwise he might've undergone the demon trials, especially considering that he took on that trial to try and save Darla. Locking Angelus away for good has got to be a considerable benefit to the world if Angel were to consider it.

The problem comes AFTER Spike has got his soul because then Angel would know that the soul giving demon existed (even if he had heard the legend but dismissed it as just that). To be honest though, I disliked Spike getting a soul because of the connotations surrounding it.
 
K
katmobile
The problem is to anchor it you'd have to remove it first and also if Angel dies attempting it where does that leave those who depend on him. I love Spike and I'm a Spuffy but he had nothing to lose when he sought a soul and no one who needed him.

thetopher

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Sineya
Wow, what a response...

Compared to their really, really bad ideas? They make some serious mistakes and unlike them, she does not humiliate or hurt them.

Really? What about 'When She Was Bad' where she was hurtful to her friends for an entire episode and they 1) call her out on it and 2) accept her back without apology.

Unleashed Angelus and being unable (unwilling) to stop him before he murders Miss Calendar and tortures Giles almost to death? (plus like, almost ending the world)

How about 'Dead Man's Party' where Buffy publicly 'mocked and humiliated' (in front of strangers if we're being all !emotive!) Xander's 'Nighthawk' attempts, as he risked his life all summer when Buffy ran away from her slayer responsibilities and nobody knew how to find her.

'Revelations' where its revealed that she was hiding Angel from all of them? No, not an unwise maneuver? No questionable judgement that needs to be called out upon?

Or how about something more recent- since you're focusing solely on S7; Xander gives an impassioned speech about how great Buffy is, gets permanently maimed for his troubles, and finds out that he isn't considered to be 'watching her back' enough, probably explains why Buffy barely spend any time with him at the hospital right?

Wow, what crappy friends, its not like they've been helping her BY CHOICE for going on 7 years now.


Yeah, no. Consider the situation she was in. EVERYONE else was against her... for something she was right about, btw.
Consider the context of the situation; Buffy had already led them into a trap in the vineyard based on nothing but a hunch and a prediction that Caleb- an unknown enemy- won't be expecting it, even when he uh, taunted her with specific knowledge.
So Buffy wants to do the same plan again? No, but no.

And it doesn't matter if she was right; hindsight is not an argument to use to justify wonky judgement at the time; that's lame.

Of course, he didn't confront her then. But he did say things that were provocative, that made her think.
Hah, Spike gave Buffy a pep talk, nothing more. It was a 'You're wonderful and I love you' speech that most of her inner circle gets to do. Xander does it about once a year and does it much better.

He didn't need to question her every move and he didn't need to publicly humiliate her either. She had everyone else for that.
Not every move, but how about ANY MOVE. Not gonna happen because he puts her up on a pedestal; Buffy can do no wrong because he loves her. 'Seen the worst of her' my arse, demon-Spike maybe but not this 'I've had a soul for about a year and I like, have total insights now'. shallow idiot.

Faith took up the mantle when asked to, but she and Spike were unique in not undercutting Buffy.
I wouldn't say 'undercutting'- that's the emotive term that you've chosen, but Faith does question, which is good. There is no time where blindly following somebody is a good idea. Ever.
Faith says 'this is a bad plan, we shouldn't do this plan and you need a break' and then it all kicks off.

Her friends disemboweled her in front of strangers. I would never have spoken to them again.
*snigger* disemboweled? Well, you're really on board the Buffy-martyr train, huh? She died for our sins!! *sob* And you act like she isn't perfect and yet you state things like this. Dear lord.

Tell me, seriously, if you really truly believe this, with all its obvious emotional intensity, don't you think its weird that the writers decided to throw ALL of Buffy's other relationships under the bus so we can make Spuffy look good by comparison?

What a strange way to end a 7 year journey, not with Buffy and her 'horrible duplicitous' friends who've been critical to her success and survival for so many years, but with the guy who's been trying to kill her for the majority of his time on the show.

Another thing about Angel (and Riley even) is that the writers never had to make Buffy's friends look awful or thoughtless so the relationship would 'look good' by comparison.

So, even taking your 'shining Spuffy' moment, I can say that no relationship demonized over half the main cast as much as Spuffy, in your opinion, seemed to do in order to 'make it work'. Another reason why Spike and Spuffy are awful.

I'd have called up Angel and maybe Riley, got help elsewhere (because Buffy wouldn't forfeit the world to spite them), and I'd have let them see if they could survive without her.
That's pretty spiteful given that Buffy walked out on them. She said that if she didn't get to lead that she didn't want to stay, but that's what happened so she had to leave.... because nobody wanted her to lead.

They would have died. And she could have died too, when they humiliated her and discarded her in a public repudiation.
lol How did they discard her? She was the one who got vicious, paranoid and personal and so escalated things.
Buffy was the one who left because of her pride. This hyperbole is nonsensical.

She could easily have been found by bringers or a turok han and cut to pieces. She could easily have said "OK, I'm not wanted, I've been replaced, let them handle it"
Well that's what happens when Buffy storms off in the middle of a friggin' apocalypse whilst getting into a petty pissing match with Faith. Buffy did actually say 'I'm fed up, you can handle it. Oh, and if somebody could punch Faith for me, that would make me feel better because I'm not small-minded at all'.

Not to mention there was that guy who's house she stole, who's weapon she took, who she then left to fend for himself. I mean, at least Buffy has superpowers but she could've easily gotten that guy killed.
But then again that guy didn't pout and then slowly and sadly walk away from the home that Buffy kicked him out of, so I guess its okay.

the way heroic Angel did with the fear demon in the hotel - abandoning them to their fate b/c they deserved it
Angel wasn't always a hero and I don't think it was ever claimed on this thread that he WAS always a hero.

Angel was a work in progress for a 100 years because he was unique in the world for all that time without any guidance.

But looking at who his is now and who Spike is now then its pretty clear that Angel is the better option, all things considered.

But Buffy's a better person than me or Angel. They did not deserve her. And no one ever even recognized their extreme violation of her or apologized. She was right. She had the solution. They treated her like dirt, and undercut her, and tried to take any support she might have. She choose to come back after they screwed up, instead of wiping the dirt off her sandals and moving on.
Buffy is a human-ish person who makes mistakes. She was right but only because the bad guys were morons and the plot said so, that's it.

Her friends welcomed her back because she AND they are not perfect and have never acted as such. Buffy was a bad leader and her friends didn't handle things the best way so they skipped the mutual apologies and went right back to saving the world.

Instead, she chose to keep working. Find the scythe and rescue them when they screwed up... and choose to share her power with the ungrateful, disrespectful strangers.
What was her alternate plan? And didn't she need Willow (y'know, that ungrateful backstabbing wicca!) to be the key to this plan?
Otherwise Buffy had no plan because- here's the moral that you seemed to have missed- for Buffy to lead she had to get others to willingly follow, not just bark nonsensical orders at them.

If Buffy had walked away and Faith had died, they would have gotten another slayer. Buffy would not have even been in dereliction. They told her her help was no longer needed or welcome! She left b/c how can you stay when your gutted by friends?
She left because nobody would let her be in charge anymore and Buffy didn't want to stand down or even take a break, So Buffy went off and sulked, got some pep and came back to her own self.

So... Of course, Spike didn't beat up on her.
No, Spike's job is to beat up on everybody BUT Buffy; Anya, Xander, Andrew, Faith, usually without anything approaching a reason.

No, Buffy is not perfect. Far from it.
But you seem to think Buffy is some super-martyr surrounded by ungrateful ingrates who've never helped her in her entire life, like she's been carrying them all for 7 years. Oh, how we have been watching separate shows....

Anyway, so no, Spike didn't confront her, but he was sorting out himself and his mind after the soul AND she was being put through hell. He did offer to go when he saw he was dangerous... He tried to take responsibility. He invited her to kill him.
Yeah, his 'suicide by Buffy' scene? Not a big fan of that, telling a girl that he got a soul for her and now he wants her to kill him after claiming that Buffy likes men who hurt her? Buckets of nope over that tired, toxic scene. Bringing up Dawn's name alone is sickening.

Spike overcame his obstacles... trying to have a clear mind MONTHS after getting a soul (something that must have been overwhelming - it took Angel years to deal with)
Spike had Buffy, Angel had nobody but Darla, that was it. Without Buffy Spike wouldn't have made it further than the school basement babbling like a loon, probably.

It's basically apples and oranges comparing the two entirely different circumstances that led to to two very different characters.

And then instead of giving into the trigger
No, no, no. Spike was MIND-CONTROLLED into stalk-murdering or rage-smash dependent on the situation. The only reason he could even attempt to resist is Giles and Giles alone for finding that curative. Buffy is not responsible (nor did she really care), nor is Spike (ditto about being made to slaughter innocents, he got over it as soon as Buffy did),
Giles is the reason Spike becomes anything approaching an ally and not a massive liability/sleeper agent within the allied camp.

They almost got Faith killed - they recklessly did the same thing they told Buffy not to do - go back to the vineyard with a bunch of scared children.
...What?
This never actually happened lol! Nobody but Buffy went back to the vineyard because 'she was right'; Faith and the others went into the sewers and led into a second, much cleverer trap.

What, you think that Buffy walked out and Faith turned around and told them the exact same plan and everyone thought it was suddenly genius? What is this, Blackadder?

Do you think that Buffy was treated like Connor McCloud being thrown out of his highland village?- 'cause you certainly seem to think so. Is there a cut of S7 that you have seen that nobody else has?

Nope, you are factually wrong here, go and rewatch the episode and see.


they never did ask Buffy how she would do it, -- so they don't know that what she had planned was reckless, just that she thought there was something at the Vineyard she needed. They never sat down PRIVATELY and talked like 'senior officers' usually do and discuss their concerns with her like friends/allies do.
Incidentally, it wasn't Buffy's idea to have the whole pile of girls thrust onto her.
Tell me what the other option was? The Watcher's council was gone and Bufyf was the only slayer, so Giles did what he could; he went around the world- tirelessly- and rescued Potentials from death to bring them to the one slayer in a position to protect them.

Now, could there have been things that Buffy could've done better?
Sure, like tell Giles about here prophecy dreams- maybe getting a jump on what's happening. No? Then what about asking Riley for help when she's got him on the line and has the opportunity? No? Then how about calling Faith and giving her a heads up that she might be in danger? Nope?

Well, it seems there were many things that both Giles and Buffy could've done better, but at least Giles was actually going out and being proactive. I certainly don't blame either of them them- within the confines of the story- for not doing things like hiring mercs or the like (except not contacting Faith because that would've taken very little effort. Here Buffy just comes across as thoughtless and with poor judgement...)

No, choosing Spuffy doesn't mean Buffy is flawless. That doesn't even make sense. I like Buffy and Spike together because they seem real, and they actually seem to bring out the best in each other.
Simple; Spike loves Buffy unconditionally which means he never challenges her or is critical of her bad choices; this is neither healthy nor remotely realistic in something people want to term an 'adult relationship'; it is not adult, its weirdly co-dependent and that's it.


And 'bringing out the best'? In what sense? Spike emotionally blackmails Buffy to take care of him and as a result the last season she has become a complete emotional basket-case cutting herself off from her friends becausae 'he got a soul' for her and therefore his transformation must mean something; and since how Bufyf deals with the trigger is some of the best evidence to Buffy's incredibly porr judgement that season then no, not bringing out anything remotely good.

As for Spike; he gets told to go and become a killer again to suit Buffy and he does it without question; that's not bringing out his best, that's merely regressing his character. False

Just think what would have happened that night, had Spike not found Buffy in that house.
Uh, Buffy's friends would've found her there the next morning because Faith sent them to check on her and they found the place she was staying in (eventually), apologies would've ensued because obviously (to most of us) everyone regretting their actions -including Buffy- and wanted to make up. You do seem to think that Buffy actually acknowledges that she was partly in the wrong but whatever; we clearly have different opinions about what the show was actually about, which probably explains why you like Spuffy so much.


Finally, to your comment about why Angel doesn't find a cure for his curse...it kinda misses the entire point; Angel is a VAMPIRE, which is mostly the reason why he left Buffy and Sunnydale.
It was not to do with his curse- which he was managing with. So even if Angel went through some trials- like the ones he did to save Darla (which make Spike's trial look a bit crappy if I'm honest) then yay, soul/cursed fixed. So what? He's still a vampire with a destiny so- in Angel's mind- he isn't good enough to be with Buffy.

But Spike? Oh Spike thinks that Buffy deserves him. And what a coincidence he got a soul for her and loves her so that works out well in Spike's thinking.
And we see how well that worked out in the comics; after years of 'will they wont they' they just went and broke up because it wasn't working. So its quite possible that Angel was right to leave, sinc ehe can't change his vampire state
 
GraceK
GraceK
::cheers::
Spanky
Spanky
Get a finger cramp from all that?

Antho

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Mostly I think 2018 is a good year to try and realize that the "Spike/Buffy/Angel" triangle only exists within the fandom and not in the actual show.
Yeah because theses two relationship didn't happen in the same time. Buffy isn't like Elena Gilbert or Bella Swan for what matters. Sorry, I couldn't help it :)
 

thetopher

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Sineya
@katmobile please keep your snarky, unpleasant comments to yourself.
 
K
katmobile
I'm sorry you have a point about the Scoobies side of the Empty Places debate you put that part well. The rest I don't agree with and IMO degenerated into being a bit ranty and I didn't agree but I apologise for being rude.

WillowFromBuffy

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Lloyd almost kills Spike "a dozen times over." Would Angel take that risk? It's not like he doesn't have responsibilities.

Spike went to get his soul, because he was desperate and because he is Spike, who does stuff like that. Angel does crazy stuff, too, but I don't think he would go to Lloyd just to be with Buffy again. Maybe if Wesley had not kidnapped Connor, Angel would have attempted something crazy to anchor his soul, so that he could raise Connor without danger.
 

Taake

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Black Thorn
@katmobile please keep your snarky, unpleasant comments to yourself.
And this is an unpleasant response in turn. You cannot pick and choose from whom you get comments, if you found it unpleasant enough to adress then you should’ve reported it rather than policed another member yourself.
 
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