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Spike or Angel.

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Black Thorn
#61
True, also Spike seems to be more aware about his clothes size.
I don't understand - what do you mean by more aware? Both vampires seem to me to be wearing the right size clothing.

And I reckon they probably did each other's eyeliner in S2 ;) (when they weren't fighting over Dru...or maybe Dru did the eyeliner for them both?)
 
Fool for Buffy
Fool for Buffy
Gotta head canon that Dru did both of their eyeliner :D
FaithLehane16
FaithLehane16
How can that be healthy for them? I would like to think that they both had their own eyeliner that had their names on them. Angelus looked better with the eyeliner than Spike did.
J

joseph

Guest
#62
Or you could go over to the Loverswalk - Battleship Section and look at literally like 90% of the threads there. LOL But since you asked - Spike was never Buffy's boyfriend in the TV series. So its between Riley and Angel. I think Angel was the better boyfriend.
angel was good to buffy though as angelus he was mean to puppies, after all a nailed a puppy skip it buffy said then what he did to Willow fish sick. though spike eats kitten so it is hard to say who is more cruel
 

badsister

Angel's Avenger
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#63
I don't understand - what do you mean by more aware? Both vampires seem to me to be wearing the right size clothing.
But...Angel's shirts were most of the time so ill fitted?! I saw it! There is proof! I'm just too lazy to search for it. Also I'll never forget s1 wearing a white tank top under a coat... who are you, Ryan Gosling?! But in Angel's defence, he at least, once again, had more mmm imagination when it came to wardrobe. Though I appreciate Spike's cartoon character dedication to 'black t shirt black jeans thing', you can't go wrong with it. At least, Angel took risks!
 
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Black Thorn
#66
But...Angel's shirts were most of the time so ill fitted?! I saw it!
Nah, they were the right size across the shoulders and neck, just casual fit rather than fitted/tailored and he never did his collar up or tucked them in (except those few times when he did). The only time I remember Angel's shirt being a really bad fit was that pale blue one he wore in 'Halloween' - yikes!

I think all men should do this... all the time every day of the week.
Perhaps not all men. The thought of that is actually rather terrifying. There definitely some men for whom the tank top-only look should be made a criminal offence.
 
Mrs Gordo
Mrs Gordo
We don't speak of that shirt...ever.

Mrs Gordo

Angel-holic
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Black Thorn
#67
but fine he'll take off the jacket if you insist:


Oh man and then Ryan Goslin's is like "Hey girl. What if I just wear the jacket?


Ok sorry I'll stop (I'm bored lol) :p
 
EarthLogic
EarthLogic
A thousand times karma for that first one! Those arms .... uhnn!
badsister
badsister
Ryan could have been nice in role of Angel now that I think of it...

badsister

Angel's Avenger
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#68
Spike has ONE set of clothes.... and also his jeans are way too tight so I'd go ahead and disagree with the whole "aware of his clothes size thing."
Hey I'm on your side here ! I've already addressed the cartoon character thing but nooo everyone just ignores that part and goes for blood! *insert i got hurt feelings song*


Nah, they were the right size across the shoulders and neck, just casual fit rather than fitted/tailored and he never did his collar up or tucked them in (except those few times when he did). The only time I remember Angel's shirt being a really bad fit was that pale blue one he wore in 'Halloween' - yikes!
Huh. Ok then. Not like I understand as much in tailoring as EVERYONE HERE OBVIOUSLY.
Maybe that's the only one that got stuck in my mind....Still I prefer his style. And I loved the long coat that was so noir


I think all men should do this... all the time every day of the week. Especially DB and Ryan Gosling... thanks.
Ok. Maybe I'm too asexual for this.
 
Mrs Gordo
Mrs Gordo
I just wanted an excuse to post pics of Angel in a muscle shirt :)

badsister

Angel's Avenger
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#69
And even as Angelus he got swag. Cause I mean it's easy to be bad boy dressed in tight jeans, leather duster and with black nail polish. Angelus didn't take an easy road!
 
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Black Thorn
#70
Hey I'm on your side here ! I've already addressed the cartoon character thing but nooo everyone just ignores that part and goes for blood! *insert i got hurt feelings song*




Huh. Ok then. Not like I understand as much in tailoring is EVERYONE HERE OBVIOUSLY.
Maybe that's the only one that got stuck in my mind....Still I prefer his style. And I loved the long coat that was so noir




Ok. Maybe I'm too asexual for this.
LOOOVVED the long coat too! I also loved the sweater + leather coat combo:



It was badass and cuddly at the same time.

(I think we've thoroughly derailed the thread now, lol!)
 
Mrs Gordo
Mrs Gordo
I'm so glad they realized after BtVS s2 how Angel could rock a damn sweater...

badsister

Angel's Avenger
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#71
It was badass and cuddly at the same time.

(I think we've thoroughly derailed the thread now, lol!)
thread is called Spike or Angel
And I strongly believe a choice one makes in clothes and hairstyle is very important while deciding whether he is good bf or not. So.

Good choice. Yes. V necks do look good on him!

I love this look and his shoes(cause i really have problems with liking mens shoes usually) ....also i think they've photoshopped CC body here...um
 
WillowFromBuffy
WillowFromBuffy
The shoes are way too stiff and formal. It must be like walking inside two black bricks.

DeepBlueJoy

Lion Faced Kitteh
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#73
Spike.

He solved his little soul problem. He fought for it. Spike satisfied her sexually. He saved her from dancing herself to death. He kept his promise to take care of her sister when she was dead, and it could get him nothing.

He worked with and protected people who hated him because they were hers.

She could talk to him in her darkest moments.

He let himself be tortured to save Dawn even though Glory would have killed him if Buffy and co. had not showed up. He fought for his soul when he had none. Angelus did not.

All of Spike chose the side of good, not just the soul. Because of his love (and her example, IMO) he became someone willing to die for the world, and did.

He gave all for her and transformed for her, and was always there for her and kept her going, and able to fight the good fight.

He was more than a boyfriend, he was a friend, confidant, lover, and ove and over he proved he.was truly... Family.
 
badsister
badsister
yeah but his hair though
Willow Tara
Willow Tara
True!!! Thank you for putting my thoughts into words! btw don't know if that means anything but all my friends I interduced to the show (to be fair most of them didn't watch Angel) are S/B fans. I wasn't always. But now I'm Spuffy FOREVER! (Cangel!!)
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#74
I'm with Sarah Michelle Gellar on this. Team Angel all the way. I just really loved the way their romance played out throughout the first three seasons of the show. Though if I am being honest, I probably wouldn't have been Team Angel if it had not ended at the time it did. In fact, in ended just at the right time before it felt played out.

In terms of endgame relationships, I'm for neither Angel or Spike. That's why I am so angry about
Buffy and Spike
dating in the comics. I always thought that Buffy should move on and find a new love interest later in her life.

If I compare Angel and Spike objectively, I must admit though that Spike is the better choice, because he is not entirely evil without a soul and actually fought for his soul to become a better man, the man that he needs to be to be worthy of Buffy. Angel on the other hand is completely evil without a soul and the soul is something that was forced upon him. So in a way Spike is a better man because he loves her so much that he is willing to change his entire self to become someone who is worthy of her.

But I think one should also note here that the time of the conception of the characters is fairly important. Vampires initially were not supposed to be able to grow and evolve. They were just supposed to be plain evil, but since the writers liked James Masters so much, they had to find a way to keep him around and make him more of multidimensional character and that's when they realized that vampires needed to evolve too. Meanwhile Angel was really supposed to be this Jekyl and Hyde persona and they could never backtrack from that after they decided to make Spike a real character.
 

LilyAnne

I do doodle. You too, you do doodle too.
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#75
Question: When people debate Angel vs. Spike, is it who they find to be the better character overall, or specifically who they prefer in relation to Buffy?

I unfortunately did not come to Buffy until six years ago. Prior to watching the show, I was aware of its positive reputation and all-time-great status, but was largely unaware of anything else about it aside from two things - I knew that Angel was a vampire, and I knew that there was also a character named Spike and that there was competition between the two, presumably regarding Buffy herself. Because the Angel/Spike debate transcends the series, I went into it expecting some lame sort of Twilight/Vampire Diaries situation, where a torn Buffy has to choose between her two loves. Thankfully, because I've never really been much of the shippery/swoony type of fan about stuff, that never happens. At no point in either show is Buffy ever torn having to choose between Angel or Spike, thankgoodness. I mean, I don’t think there is anything wrong with having a preference (I know I do) or comparing them, but until I finished the show and started looking into the fandom, it never occurred to me to pit them against each other, because I don’t really think they’re intended to be pitted that way. I feel like the intensity of the argument gives the wrong impression of the series, and kind of undermines the show and Buffy herself, because it’s not really about that at all.

That being said, for the sake of the argument, I am admittedly Team Angel on both counts. :p (Though I do understand and accept that he and Buffy can’t be together, and I do think he left Sunnydale at the right time.) It wasn’t until my second watch-through two summers ago that I developed my fondness for him, and for his relationship with Buffy. Not really in a romantic, shippy way, ‘cause like I said, that’s not really my style, just a sentimental one. He’s such a good guy, like the big brother of the world (as well as being Buffy’s best villain, imo). And I love his relationship with Buffy, not just in the first three seasons, but their friendship and how it continues even after he leaves Sunnydale. (I love how they have him come back to see her in “Forever”, and how the writers still had them go see each other after she comes back in Season 6 even though they couldn’t do an actual crossover since they were now on two different networks. I feel like most shows would have just not bothered at that point, but that they did shows a respect for the characters that warms my heart.) I don’t DISLIKE Spike because of this, and I do think that he also is a great character, and arguably the more charismatic and endlessly quotable of the two, but at the end of the day, if asked, I am Team Angel all the way.
 

Willow Tara

♥️Buffyverse♥️ Tillow Forever!!!
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Sineya
#76
I'm Spuffy all the way!!! I wasn't always through... I was Bangel until (my first time watching) end of season 4/ beginning of season 5 because Spike was evil and I was a kid, my mind: evil = not good = don't like it. And I thought Angel looked really good. (I'm really ashamed of that but I have to say I kinda thought Connor looked good too...) And I HATED (still really don't like him) Riley. So I had this "love Angel, hate other partners of Buffy ( =Riley)" - effect. In season 4 I found Spike just funny (even sometimes before but he was still eveil) But when I saw how Spike cared for Buffy, risked his life (Glory would've killed him if Buffy and the Scoobies didn't save him) for her. (As a kid I didn't saw anything disgusting or wrong with the Buffybot I just found it funny. REALLY funny!!! 😂) And the Scene with Buffy dressed up as the Buffybot *cute*. I just started, not hating any Buffy lover just because he wasn't Angel. (besides I was watching it with my parents and they were Spuffy defenitely. They thought Bangel was too cheesy. So I guess that also did have an empact in me.) In season 5 it all was just soo cute! (except for Spike chaining Buffy to the wall) In the gift I mean: "I you'll never love me. I know that I'm a monster, but you treat me like a man." How he cries because the person he loved died. I think at that point I was really a Spuffy fan. (I know for a true Spuffy fan maybe a little late. But I'm Tillow forever, so who cares?) In season 6 it was cute that: "I want you to know I did save you. Not when it counted of course. But after that. Every night after that. Every night I saved you." And hiw ge first saw her alive and how he looked at her and she at him. And how he knew exactly how many days she was gone. After that in season 6 it's just... Let's not talk about it. (I HATE watching seeing red! Mostly because of Tara. But not only. My two favourite BTVS couples have their worst moments. You know what I mean.) In season 7... I LOOOOVE their relationship in this season! Everything Spuffy related in season 7 is either funny or cute! Just like most of their relationship is. Besides the lower moments. But that just also shows how true Spikes "You're the one." speech in touched was. Ge as seen the best and the worst of her and he loves her completely and unconditionally, everything she is even the worst and also the best sides of her. And she loves him! Besides... I really LOOVE Cangel! Spuffy is endgame and Cangel is too. I won't force anyone to have the same opinions as I have. I actually really enjoy hearing other peoples opinions doesn't matter if they have the same or an other than I have. It's both intersting to see their point of view, so I hope noone feels like I'd attec them, their favourite couple/character, or anything/anyone. It's all just my opinion. And Tillow is everything for me so maybe the "real" or "die hard" Spuffy/Bangel fans should discuss this... it's my point of view from a Spuffy Fan who sees Spuffy as one of their OTPs but not THE OTP.
 

DeepBlueJoy

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#77
Question: When people debate Angel vs. Spike, is it who they find to be the better character overall, or specifically who they prefer in relation to Buffy?
Personally, I came to my fandom of Buffy through Angel the series. I had been aware of Buffy, but only caught a little bit of it before Angel came on -- and given that, I hadn't really gotten to know BtVS. So it may surprise you that I came to love the relationship between Buffy and Spike, and slowly cooled on my initial affection for the relationship between Buffy and Angel. Understand that I still like Angel -- if you read my stories, you'll find that I actually explore him rather a lot and love his character... but I came to see that he was wrong for Buffy... also, I came to see that he didn't FIGHT for Buffy.

How can I ship them, when Angel doesn't?

He moves on. He NEVER tries to get his soul anchored so he can be with her. He does care about her, but I came to see that he'd put her on a pedestal where she was supposed to remain... pure and a symbol of redemption and light... 'entitled to an ideal of normal' that he 'couldn't possibly give her' -- all of which strike me as singularly 'romantic' (in the romance novel, fairytale, sort of way).

That is not a relationship. That is worship, at best. It is inherently static, and relationships are not static b/c people aren't static. They need different things at different times. They aren't ideals. They aren't perfect. And while he may have met her need when she needed someone who made her feel alive and as though she had her 'one chance at love' (when she herself was but a girl, and had such fairytale notions AND expected to die very, very soon... so the motif of Buffy at 16/17 is 'seize the day' rather than 'build a relationship' that changes and struggles and grows.

Could it have grown? Maybe. But as someone else said (in a different discussion, I think) Angel left. While he did stay in touch, it was barely...

He came back during the first Thanksgiving to 'rescue' Buffy, while hiding from her -- not giving her any say in things... And she was, justifiably furious.

(this was just after he'd taken away 1000% of her agency by taking back that one 'perfect day' because he decided he'd rather rescue her than be her partner. Buffy was quite capable of having a say in that. I think the truth was Angel didn't know what to do with human weakness, and ran screaming back to take back the day (and of course, if he'd stopped being a demon, there would have been no series, so they had to do it) but... he took any choice from her. THAT IS NOT A RELATIONSHIP AT ALL.

Relationships have MUTUALITY.

They are between two people. He didn't give her any say. Yes, it was his life, and he had a right to want to go back to being a vampire... but he didn't even let her keep the memory... b/c apparently she was too fragile to remember having a good day -- but somehow he wasn't. That is disrespectful to her as a person.

And of course, he tangled with Riley. He had given up any say in her life. Who she was or wasn't seeing or sleeping with wasn't any of his business. HE had made it so. He'd decided for them that they couldn't be together. He hadn't discussed it with her after exploring all the possibilities for finding a way to get his soul cemented. So... he took himself out of the running.

At the time of IWRY, i felt heartbroken for THEM b/c they were so lovely together. Funny, touching, real... adorable. I LOVED them that day. Then Angel betrayed Buffy. Betrayed it all. Now, I just feel disappointed in Angel. And annoyed on Buffy's behalf that Angel had 'fixed things for her' -- just like he did for his friends when he took THEIR memories -- and ended them up trapped in the place they most hated in the world b/c he had to 'save his son' by removing who his son was. (that one was probably justified -- but the price was the life of all his friends -- b/c Wolfram and Hart has a perpetuity clause and was a trap and Angel knew that. They were trapped by his weakness.

He agreed to it and changed reality so they'd be OK with agreeing with it (they didn't know of his little deal with the devils at W&H) they trusted him.

Then there's Forever... well, he came, he comforted, he left. Maybe he should have stayed and helped out with the worse threat she'd ever faced? He wanted to save her, right? Now was the time... with both Spike and Angel on the field of battle, I betcha Buffy doesn't have to jump!! Maybe he could have taken Dawn away... Maybe he and Dawn and Buffy could have gone one way, and the others could have gone the other way and Glory's date would have come and gone and she would have weakened, and voila, Buffy not dead!

Anyway, didn't happen, move on.

Let's look at Spike and Buffy for a moment. Spike can be an irritating git. He's impulsive and he's got a boatload of crazy... but from the time he first meets Buffy's mom, he bonds with her. He makes a pact with the slayer even when they are ENEMIES and he sticks with it. He plays straight even as an enemy.

He's comitted to Dru. Why is that important? Because it wasn't he who made Dru, or made her crazy. But she needed him, and so he stayed. Yes, he loves her, but he's a carer. He cared for his terminally ill mum, when he could have been off making his way in the world and making a good marriage. He was a true blue romantic in... kind of a milquetoast in life, as we see...

but those kinds of people make good husbands.

Liam was a womanizing (whoremonger, actually) drunkard who got off on getting off - he was full at rage at his family even before his death. It's no wonder he kills them all in a vicious rage. So... fundamentally, Liam vs William is a no brainer.

Liam is a hot, bad man... but he's actually a pretty vile person. Angel is very ruthless, probably as a result. Angel is better than Liam though. That is why I care. Want him happy. Redeemed. Fulfilled. Just don't think he is right for Buffy - or that Buffy is right for him. He needs a woman who will talk back. someone like Cordy. Someone who is fiery.

To use a metaphor, Buffy is water - she flows. Angel is earth - he absorbs the water. Spike is air, he stirs things up. Cordelia had the personality to light Angel up, purify him.. Confront him. Emotionally Buffy needs someone to lift her up. Spike does that, step by step. She can't do the work needed to dig out the best of Angel. Cordy can.

It isn't who is better, it who is better for whom.

Spike is out of control as a vampire. he lives in the present. Thing about that is that people like that don't plan well b/c spontaneity is everything. But the good thing about that is that they are inherently adaptable...

Which brings me to Buffy. Buffy comes to believe she's bad at love. Angel left her. Parker used her. The 'normal' guys just couldn't handle her life at all. Riley could not deal with her power or that she might at times be stronger than him, or self contained... She had to be have the right feelings he needed her to have.

Is it any wonder she turns to Spike when she's worried about her mum? He's not gonna ask her to open up when she's not ready... With Riley, she had to hold back, and adjust herself to his need to be the alpha male. Problem with this is that Buffy is actually the alpha in the relationship. I don't think Riley can handle this. Not sure Angel could either, but we never see them in an adult partnership, so it's difficult to say.

What we do see with Spike is that he can fight with her. He can fight for her. He listens. He advises. Finally, he recognizes he is useless as he is and he puts his life on the line without a promise of anything. He earns his soul.


I unfortunately did not come to Buffy until six years ago. Prior to watching the show, I was aware of its positive reputation and all-time-great status, but was largely unaware of anything else about it aside from two things - I knew that Angel was a vampire, and I knew that there was also a character named Spike and that there was competition between the two, presumably regarding Buffy herself. Because the Angel/Spike debate transcends the series, I went into it expecting some lame sort of Twilight/Vampire Diaries situation, where a torn Buffy has to choose between her two loves. Thankfully, because I've never really been much of the shippery/swoony type of fan about stuff, that never happens. At no point in either show is Buffy ever torn having to choose between Angel or Spike, thankgoodness. I mean, I don’t think there is anything wrong with having a preference (I know I do) or comparing them, but until I finished the show and started looking into the fandom, it never occurred to me to pit them against each other, because I don’t really think they’re intended to be pitted that way. I feel like the intensity of the argument gives the wrong impression of the series, and kind of undermines the show and Buffy herself, because it’s not really about that at all.

That being said, for the sake of the argument, I am admittedly Team Angel on both counts. :p (Though I do understand and accept that he and Buffy can’t be together, and I do think he left Sunnydale at the right time.) It wasn’t until my second watch-through two summers ago that I developed my fondness for him, and for his relationship with Buffy. Not really in a romantic, shippy way, ‘cause like I said, that’s not really my style, just a sentimental one. He’s such a good guy, like the big brother of the world (as well as being Buffy’s best villain, imo). And I love his relationship with Buffy, not just in the first three seasons, but their friendship and how it continues even after he leaves Sunnydale. (I love how they have him come back to see her in “Forever”, and how the writers still had them go see each other after she comes back in Season 6 even though they couldn’t do an actual crossover since they were now on two different networks. I feel like most shows would have just not bothered at that point, but that they did shows a respect for the characters that warms my heart.) I don’t DISLIKE Spike because of this, and I do think that he also is a great character, and arguably the more charismatic and endlessly quotable of the two, but at the end of the day, if asked, I am Team Angel all the way.
I do think that the vampire wars thing is kind of pointless... at least HOSTILITY about it. I think EVERYONE has a favorite pairing... and since I like Angel a lot, I can understand why others might too, though I think the relationship is over... it's not evil or bad... just not the best one of the available options.

As a fanfic writer, I've actually paired Buffy with people other than either Angel or Spike rather a lot... so I'm actually kind of openminded about the whole thing. Teal'c from Stargate appeals to me a lot. Daniel Jackson also from Stargate appeals too. I've even paired Buffy with another 'bad guy' -- The once evil Dan Scott from One Tree Hill. But for Buffyverse stories, Spike will always get my vote... because I see theirs as a relationship with future and present possibilities. Not a grand romance on a pedestal, but a real, messy, funny supportive and caring relationship. Which is what most of us need in life.

Peace,

Blue
 
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thetopher

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Sineya
#79
I'd go with the the grownup, not the supplicant.
Angel can, at the very least, challenge Buffy as well as being quite capable of supporting her. Spike never challenges her because he's 'Love's Bitch'; he can't. He 'got a soule for her'. He won't stand up TO Buffy, which is vital if an adult relationship is to be built on equality.

You see it in the comics, Buffy still needs that sort of thing. What if Giles or her friends had never, ever called her on her bullshit? She'd be alone or dead is what.

To support Spuffy is to think that Buffy has no character flaws, which is nonsense. For all its 'maturity' and 'adult themes' Spuffy seems a fundamentally childish (or perhaps overly-romantic?) view of two grown-ups in a supposed relationship.
Angel, Riley, hell, even demon-Spike were able to talk Buffy out of doing something when she was being stubborn or matryr-ish; I can give numerous examples. But Spike-with-a-soul? Never, which is why 'Touched' and his 'unconditional love' (just as long as Buffy acknowledges what HE did for her and well as what SHE did for him then he'll love her. :rolleyes:) is the low-point. Here is a man who genuinely thinks (or merely just feels) he knows her when everyone else- who ACTUALLY has known her for many years- have called her on her isolationist crap yet again and so she ran away (again); but Spike will be with her to the very end, enabling her worst choices just so he can be near her in the desperate hope that she'll one day love him.

I'm with Buffy on this one; Spike really only wanted Buffy because of too many blows to the head/shocks to the brain/she was the 'unattainable' super-woman mother-figure that Spike wanted to save/kill over and over again like he did since he was first turned.
Spike, being a romantic, is 'in love with love' and the idea of love more than actually being in a relationship. he may not even be capable.

The demon- for all his faults- was actually more fully aware of this sort of folly than the weak man was, lecturing Buffy in 'Crush' about how if this continues on there will be nothing left of him except all his feelings for her left in a dead shell.
Looking at the comics can we honestly say that this isn't true? All other aspects of his character- apart from his surface-level rebel apparel, have vanished, being consumed by Spuffy and all the unequal-ness that that entails.
 

Dora

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#80
Never can get my head round Spuffy never can get my head around Spike supposing to love Buffy , take one instance in fool for love a vampire gets lucky and stakes with her own stake, it only takes one lucky vamp.... In as you were Buffy is attacked by a Vampire , he is put off by the double meat palace smell , Buffy gets home to find Spike waiting for her, wanting Sex , ( not put off by the smell ) and persuade her into having sex , but if he really cared would he not meet her as she left work and made sure she got home safely, she was actually safer when he was stalking her , rather than as with S6 once the sex started just turning up to use her....
I am told that this is demon love, even animals behave better than this......

As fore the Post ........Still Angel
 
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