Who loved Buffy more: Angel or Spike?

Buffy will always love Angel but where does that love go? It's pure - perfect happiness: the only way for it to go is down.

Buffy and Angel had a MOMENT of perfect happiness, their LOVE was not perfect happiness. For most of it, it was downright depressing (even as a Bangel I can admit that). They had so many obstacles along the way making their love impossible, star crossed, etc. And then fast forward to post break up where they seem insistent on fighting (see e.g. beginning of IWRY, Sanctuary, Chosen, AtS Damage on the trust issues). Buffy and Angel have SO many freaking issues.

I will never understand this whole mantra of Buffy and Angel are/were boring because there was no conflict. I see nothing but conflict overflowing between those two (Vampire/Slayer, age difference, Conflicting philosophies on good/evil, Buffy's abandonment issues, Angel's insecurities, the power struggle for two Champions, trust issues, jealousy of other "lovers", etc.) In fact if for some crazy reason Joss and Co. tried his hand at reuniting them he would find that it would be far from an easy path.

Anyway we are off topic but I wanted to just speak on this!
 
But isn't this point based on a false premise? First of all, perfect happiness only counted for one of them, once, and that was Angel. Second I agree with Wesley in that perfect happiness is so rare that it's almost impossible to achieve while you are alive. And the more Angel went through in his own life the less likely that it would ever happen for him again. Third, Buffy and Angel were never perfect and were never going to be because of their very nature (slayer/vampire, human/immortal). Fourth, while their relationship may have seemed perfect to pre-Angelus Buffy (though I wouldn't know), post-Angelus Buffy had to face some harsh realities.

As I see it Buffy/Spike is the relationship that can't develop. Spike takes Buffy in any way that he can get her (robot, depressed, rotting zombie corpse) and seems to be fine with her loving him less than he loves her (something Riley didn't accept because he felt he deserved more and I agree). So Buffy automatically holds all the cards in the relationship. She makes or breaks it, always, because Spike accepts whatever scraps he can get. It's a relationship that can't change and won't because Spike doesn't change.

I wasn’t talking from the perspective of Angel being a character. I’m more concerned with his (and Spike’s) function as narrative devices within the text. Angel/Angelus is a metaphor figuring dualism, the Spirit / Body fundamental to Western Philosophy since Plato. Spike represents a more recent trend (probably originating with Romanticism, certainly through the more radical elements of 20th century thought). I think Whedon is challenging dualism as being fundamentally flawed – that doesn’t make my premise flawed. I agree - completion (or perfect happiness) is generally achievable only through death - or paradoxically before life (I mention this because it's important to the text. There are other occasions but they're more complicated). For me, it's his association with perfect happiness that sets off alarm bells.

Change – a) I can’t see the grounds for arguing Spike doesn’t change. b) Perhaps he doesn’t need to change every aspect of his personality (biting people not withstanding) – instead his function is to be a catalyst for change in others? Perhaps we should take his claim he influenced Billy Idol seriously. Maybe he was right when he said, “You’re an idiot, I’m a rebel”. He does effect structural change in the Scoobies. Ultimately, the change Spike is associated with is dialectical – it’s a synthetisation of his position and the position of those around him. There are moments of epiphany but they’re off-screen or unspoken.

So are you saying he shouldn’t care for Buffy when she’s not perfect? Willow cares for Tara when Glory takes her mind – and Spike is cognisant of Tara’s needs. I don’t recall the Zombie episode so can’t comment on how it functions as trope but change Zombie for any life changing condition such as dementia – would it be wrong for Spike to care for Buffy then? The Buffybot? It was uncanny but why was it wrong? Buffy treated Spike as an object. She called him a thing, an animal but went to him for sex – how is this fundamentally different to Spike’s r/ship with the Bot? That said, in the comics, in theory and in reality we’re going down the road of post-humanism and transhumanism so the Buffybot was prescient in terms of the Whedonverse. Look at Bladerunner as a precursor. Look at Koreeda’s Air Girl, Gillespie’s Lars and the Real Girl for sensitive interrogations of the trope.

Love – in the sense it’s a positive feeling associated with self-respect and self-worth that repletes the ego - comes from all directions – it doesn’t need to be balanced 1 to 1. Is love deserved, is it a right or do we earn love is a question that’s been bothering philosophers and theologians for years (I think there’s a reason Angel is Catholic, Spike is probably C of E and Buffy can be associated with Puritanism)? Buffy holds all the cards? Spike’s psychological structure is that of the hysteric – in essence, he’s looking for a master or “subject supposed to know” so he’ll always be led – always be second fiddle and, in general he’s happy with that. The problem with master is it works in dialectic with slave (there’s a reason he sings “I’m your willing slave”) and is far more complex than it seems. Spike can, and does, bite back. He bites back over Dawn in the comics. He has thresholds he won’t allow Buffy or the Slayer to cross. Yes – he’ll take scraps – scraps of Buffy – he admits that in After Life - but I doubt he’ll submit to objectification or being considered a thing for any length of time. In fact, the rescue attempt in the recent comics is to do with saving the "magics" from real death after they've suffered the symbolic death of reification. That aside, scraps/traces/fragments are incredibly important metaphors in this text and not to be seen negatively.

To get back to the original question – who loves Buffy more? It’s impossible to answer – love takes a myriad of forms and has an equal number of functions. Angel and Spike love differently but to presume Spike’s is a lesser love because it’s earthy and messy and complicated isn’t IMO sustainable. Whedon has Spike there to investigate these contradictions. The reason I come down on the side of Spuffy is less to do with the characters (I like Spike and Fred/Ilyria) than the fact that the coupling is a radical interrogation of social structures and reflects the direction the ‘verse seems to be going. The latter comes with a caveat - it could change. As I said – it’s Whedon’s universe so anything could happen. Sorry if this sounds in anyway curt - it's not meant. Believe it or not, I was going for brevity! 🙂
 
I believe that if Angel had to choose between saving the world and saving Buffy, he would save the world. He is a champion and accepts it as a responsibility and a burden. Just like Buffy in Becoming Part 2. Spike, on the other hand, would save Buffy instead of the world. He wouldn't want to live in a world without Buffy in it. In Chosen, when he does die saving the world, he yells at her to go when it seems she might have stayed and burned with him. He was willing to save the world but not unless she survived. So I don't know if that means Spike loved Buffy more than Angel, but it is worth pointing out imo.

I think it still means that he loved her SELFISHLY. If he knew Buffy at all, then he would know she would want him to sacrifice her in order to save the world. Angel knows this about her. Angel and Buffy have the same mission and they try to not allow their love for each other to cloud that mission. Buffy killed Angel to save the world. And if Angel had to, he would do the same to Buffy. Angel still loved her afterwards. He probably loved her more for it. Just as I know she would him.

Spike would rather save Buffy than the world? Well, that's just plain selfish- making sure he doesn't have to live without her. Because no world, well that means no people, meaning Buffy and Spike die anyways. So essentially he would rather be dead than without her. That's quite sickening, IMO.

Btw, I'm positive that Buffy and Angel do not want to live in a world where one of them is alive and the other is dead, but that want would not get in the way of what they knew they had to do.

So for me, this is just another reason why Angel loved her better. Once again, more is ambiguous, that's why I choose to say Angel loved her better.
 
I think it still means that he loved her SELFISHLY. If he knew Buffy at all, then he would know she would want him to sacrifice her in order to save the world. Angel knows this about her. Angel and Buffy have the same mission and they try to not allow their love for each other to cloud that mission. Buffy killed Angel to save the world. And if Angel had to, he would do the same to Buffy. Angel still loved her afterwards. He probably loved her more for it. Just as I know she would him.

Spike would rather save Buffy than the world? Well, that's just plain selfish- making sure he doesn't have to live without her. Because no world, well that means no people, meaning Buffy and Spike die anyways. So essentially he would rather be dead than without her. That's quite sickening, IMO.

Btw, I'm positive that Buffy and Angel do not want to live in a world where one of them is alive and the other is dead, but that want would not get in the way of what they knew they had to do.

So for me, this is just another reason why Angel loved her better. Once again, more is ambiguous, that's why I choose to say Angel loved her better.
I'm not totally disagreeing with you here. I was specifically using the word more, not better. It is a little selfish that Spike would choose Buffy over the world, but it's also how devoted he is. I just don't think he'd have the strength to kill her and live in a world without her in it. You can interpret that any way you like😀
 
I read this tumblr thing before because you posted it before and I gotta say it's pretty non-sensical.

"Buffy loves Angel. And he loves her. And I love HoHo's" - Joss Whedon.

Angel loves Buffy. That is cannon. Period. We can argue about a great many things including who is the better ship. Who loved her better. Who had the better hair but I mean let's not be silly.
 
Not sure how you can compare the love's only to say that both were / would be, bad for Buffy
Unsouled Spike love was a selfish love , a stalker kind of love , an obsessive type of love , Buffy needed help in S6 ,Spike could not understand that or did not want to understand it , he wanted to selfishly take her into the darkness to live his life , not Buffy to live Buffy's life
Souled Spike still lied to Buffy but he had changed ,he wanted to help Buffy , not the help he had given her in the last part of S5 and S6 which was driven for his selfish ends but the help of a friend . Problem for Spike was Buffy did not really love him and in S7 he was much better for Buffy but realized because of their history and who Buffy was/had become..... he was not good enough for Buffy

Angel was told to look after Buffy which he did ..he fell in love with Buffy and she with him ...I find it creepy that Angel had lived for 250 years and falling in love with a 16 year old school girl.
Angel left Buffy for her own good so she could go out into the sun , live a humans life, showed matured thinking , but it broke Buffy's heart ( Joyce and Willow agreed with Angel ) but I don't think either Buffy or Angel really ever got over it
Angelus was a different animal, where unsouled spike wanted to kill Buffy or later shag Buffy, Angelus wanted Buffy to Suffer, kill her mother her friends, he tortured Giles, if he had had the chance would he have killed Buffy ?, maybe or would he have turned her like he did with Dru
Angelus was sadistic animal, where we never did see Spike do this

In the end I think Buffy only truly love Angel, but had she met both vampire at different times ....what would have happened if she had met a souled Spike first and a Angulus later ?....Souled Spike without Angels gypsy hang up maybe they would have been together for ever , they certainly would have had more fun and fun was so lacking so much in the later seasons
I think both Spike and Angel would have died to protect Buffy...only Spike would have probably done it for something as silly as someone short changing her
Neither was particularly good for Buffy...... but who loved Buffy most .....unsouled ( no chip ) Angelus/ Spike both would have killed her, souled Both would give up their lives for her ......
 
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I do not think you can really mesure love in any terms. Love is love and both vampires love Buffy differently but equally for me!
 
I still think it was so out of character for Angel to leave Buffy in S3.. but it had to happen for Angel to take off. but it didn't make any sense in light of their all-compassing love.
That's why I think many would say Spike.
 
Witten by a Spuffy. No really, who would have thought? LMAO.

Maybe, but most the people who tend to take Angel's side over Spikes tend to be Bangels so I'd say their even🙂

I think they both loved her pretty much equally, except in different ways. There was a level of understanding on both sides but again coming from a different point of view. At first I think Spike was more obsessed than in love with Buffy but that changed over time.
 
Judging by the comics, I'd say that the answer is still Angel.
Spike seems...somewhat bored with his whole relationship with Buffy; certainly not as ecstatic as a romantic should be.
I think Spike- like a lot of romantics- is in love with love and he projects that love onto the women he idolizes; whether that's His Mum, Cecile, Drusilla or Buffy, its the same story.
Angel loved Buffy differently to how he loves other women he has feelings for; he had feelings for Darla and Cordelia and Nina, but none of them were the same as those he had for Buffy.
Plus he doesn't idolize Buffy, he sees he faults and fights/argues with her and then they make up. That's a kind of...substantive love right there.

Oh, and I'm not really a Bangel, I'm all for the Chosen Two.
 
I disagree. I think both sides are just as bad as each other at times. But that's just my opinion. And I think to only use this board as evidence of your argument is a bit of a generalization.
No it's not. My point was that you saying people who take Angel's side are Bangels. I said that's not true and used the board as an example because we have members here who are neither Bangel nor Spuffy but who also might side with Angel. Hence disproving your generalization. So how is what I said a generalization when the board members prove this very fact?
 
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