Spike or Angel.
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CHK DeWilSon
A BAngel fan. Always.
It seems we view the situation very differently.
Firstly when Angel went to The Oracles to change him back to a vampire this was a decision for him to make about his life. Granted he SHOULD have at least talk to Buffy about it and why he felt it necessary to go back to be a vampire but knowing how he feels about Buffy and the warning he got, the person that he has become just couldn't stand by and let Buffy die if he could have some small way to prevent it.
So even if they had talk and argued about it and Angel had come to the same conclusion then there would be nothing Buffy could do as it is his body to decide what he wants to do with it.
The taking the day back was the 'deal' that The Oracles gave Angel and he had to agree to it then and there and those were the ONLY terms that they would agree to change him back. So what was he to do? They weren't going to give him any time to go back to Buffy and talk to her about it. So he made the decision then knowing what it would cost him (and them).
And still realising it would deeply hurt them both that it was happening, he still rush back to Buffy to tell her about it. And he could have taken the easy option and just let the time run to the exact moment that the time would then go back, sparing himself and her the agony of saying goodbye but he didn't.
And how that particular scenario compares to Spike's stalker like and obsessive behaviour is beyond me because at least with the Angel situation he believe he was doing it for the greater good.
nxGangrel
Totally not checkin' you out B
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Okay first I'm going to make the statement that Spike is better than Angel because Spike actually willingly fought for his soul (for Buffy mind you) while Angel was cursed with one.
However..
For Buffy, I think she was better off with Angel. They truly had some great chemistry and even though they had some hardships that resulted in Angel having to leave, they still felt deeply in love for each other, while with Spike and Buffy it was more of a toxic relationship. Since they were both more or less abusing each other, as Spike was frighteningly obsessed with Buffy and she (during season 6) was simply using him for sex knowing that he would cave since he had feelings for her. I felt bad for the both of them, and it always gave me an awkward feeling whenever they were together. I never had that feeling where he would succeed in getting the love he wanted from Buffy no matter how hard he tried.
However..
For Buffy, I think she was better off with Angel. They truly had some great chemistry and even though they had some hardships that resulted in Angel having to leave, they still felt deeply in love for each other, while with Spike and Buffy it was more of a toxic relationship. Since they were both more or less abusing each other, as Spike was frighteningly obsessed with Buffy and she (during season 6) was simply using him for sex knowing that he would cave since he had feelings for her. I felt bad for the both of them, and it always gave me an awkward feeling whenever they were together. I never had that feeling where he would succeed in getting the love he wanted from Buffy no matter how hard he tried.
AnthonyCordova
I like your objectivity
That may be true for S6 but not S7 where it was genuine love and caring for each other.
To me Buffy and Angel was just a high school romance. While Buffy and Spike was the older mature relationship for Buffy.
Buffy doesn't know Angel, not really. She doesnt know about his murders and manipulations (as Angel not Angelus) and every crossover with him, he felt off or like his character regressed. With Spike it was more real. She knew what he was and did there was no school romance tinted glasses but she loved him anyway.
nxGangrel
Good point! I just got done watching through season 6 so that is how I've been interpreting it this whole time. I've only watched through season 7 once, and that was a while ago so I'm not that familiar.
I feel like your making excuses for Angel and being unfair to Spike. He was unsouled at the time compared to souled Angel after all.
thetopher
Member of the Church Of Faith
I think there's certainly care and guilt and obligation from Buffy's side but not love. Spike is very much an emotional burden because she 'used him' and he 'got a soul for her', that's what is emphasized throughout S7.
Spike's love for Buffy and what he did for her is made clear loudly and often. Buffy's feelings for Spike are clearly (and deliberately) ambiguous.
And yet they both still expressed love for each other when they grow and change in seasons 5 and 7. It was depicted as mature, thoughtful and realistic. Buffy and Angel have conflict about stuff because they are depicted as equal, and you can't get any more adult than treating both parties equally.
With Spuffy Spike (with a soul) is always the yes-man type who ultimately does whatever Buffy wants or says. That seems more like immature wish-fulfillment that anything in the high school years.
Perhaps, but I would posit more that Buffy doesn't know anything about William. And also, she doesn't WANT to know, she tells him to man up and fight in 'Get It Done', to go back to being the 'Spike he was when they first met'. Buffy has zero interest in getting to know the softer side of William and Spike seems pretty cool with that considering.
Its odd that the viewer knows more about Spike's supposed 'depth' than Buffy does.
AnthonyCordova
I admire the fact that you still have the energy for debates on Spike like this! I'm on your side
Mrs Gordo
I agree with Anthony. I feel so tired at this point hahah. I am glad you are hear to impart some common sense.
No it's not mature at all. The character just regresses whenever he gas a crossover. Its simply done to placate Bangel shippers, who can be quite vicious to anything thats not there ship. Btw
Maybe at the start it was guilt but it clearly progressed beyond that.
Buffy herself says Spike is in her heart, she sends Angel away and shes never been the one to say something that she doesnt mean, so yeah she loves Spike. Besides its perfectly possible to love more than one person at one time.
Lol Spike is the yes man but broody Angel in a Twilight mk1 angst routine, which even the writers parodied wasn't ???
thetopher
Member of the Church Of Faith
What, like 'Forever?' Nope, that was more mature than anything Spuffy did. Two people talking about the nature of death, mourning, the future, taking comfort in each other.
Even in their high school years Buffy and Angel actually did talk about stuff.
When did Buffy and Spike ever talk when they were in a relationship? Never because Buffy wasn't ever interested, she was simply using him. They don't even really know each other, they just hit each other a lot.
Actually crossover episodes were done for many reasons, not just to placate shippers. Having a spin-off show and using more characters and having them all interact with each other. Many great episodes on both shows were crossover episodes.
So...when did it progress beyond guilt? After the violent sexual assault or before?
That could mean anything. I'll bet lots of people are 'in' Buffy's heart, doesn't mean she loves them- at least not romantically
lol Buffy has said things she doesn't really mean plenty of times before. I guess you could say that in the end maybe that she wanted to love Spike but couldn't.
Sure it is, Buffy loves Dawn and Giles and her friends all at the same time and in different ways. She also still had some feelings for Angel whilst she was with Riley. There's just no evidence that she was 'in love' with Spike. It's not even really that believable given their history.
Oh, if you're bringing the comics and Twilight into it then Buffy definitely didn't love Spike, its not really open to interpretation. In S8 or 9 does she ever act like she EVER had deep feelings towards him previously? Calling him 'stalky the clown' and such. Nope.
Not to mention that they broke up post S11 for no reason except that they didn't actually work in the end. In the comics Spuffy doesn't even match Briley in that sense. At least Briley broke up because of understandable external and internal reasons that we all got to see to judge. Spuffy never even rated a decent break-up, so clearly it didn't matter.
Maybe it was just there to placate the Spuffy fans and get them to keep buying issues. Maybe.
It's nice to know that we agree about Spike being reduced to nothing but a Yes-man though.
I'm going to give you a warning about personal attacks, your own tone in this thread is not exactly giving Spuffy-fans a great representation either… both sides can be vicious when it comes to their favorites. If you read our rules you'll see that we ask you to keep comments about the content of posts, rather than the poster. If you don't wish to engage in a further debate, that is your prerogative, but snarky "your proved my point about group X" whichever group that is, is rude and I hope you can debate with more civility in the future.
thetopher
Member of the Church Of Faith
Um, I'm not a Bangel shipper. I understand the appeal of Bangel but wouldn't ever want them ending up together post- S8 Twilight.
How it ends is what matters. I actually don't mind Spike & Buffy in S11 (S10 is laughable) but it still seems that the greatest (or should that be 'only') obstacle the ever faced as a couple in the comics were Buffy's ambiguous feelings for Spike. This was apparently solved when, at the end of S11, she told him she loved him.
And then they broke up 'off-screen' because 'they didn't work'.
So, did she ever really love him? Or did she say the words and then come to the realization that they weren't ever going to be true?
Regards the off screen break up and this is just speculation but I'm guessing it was done that way because Joss wanted to leave it open ended for both ships interpretation in S12 so as not to offend either .
Tbh the only thing I really liked in S12 was her and Faith forming a closer bond together which should've been done much sooner and on the show. I could get behind Fuffy/Baith as a ship
Otherwise the whole season was bland and the less said about the Artwork the better.
RomanticSoul
Frell Me
Angel choosing Buffy's life and the lives of others over Buffy's and his own personal happiness seems like the right choice to me. Buffy alive is more important don't you think? Also Angel did not chose to remove her memories, the Oracles did. Aside from the fact that Buffy's memories weren't removed (time was reversed so she never had the experience to begin with, can't remove what was never there), the Oracles could have let Buffy keep her memories like they did with Angel but decided not to.
And yet the romance and the feelings continued past high school. To say differently by limiting it to high school is to deny the very canon of the show. Considering that they kissed in the LAST EPISODE of the series, kind of proves this 'high school' fanon to be completely untrue.
And yet you would probably say that Spike fought for his soul right? Which makes him a better 'person' and match for Buffy because Angelus didn't fight for his. If you fall into this camp then you can't use the unsouled excuse where Spike is concerned. If you put the soul getting into souled Spike's plus column, then you can't argue that Spike is a different person and deserving a chance. Because then unsouled Spike's actions count for souled Spike. If that's the case then all of unsouled Spike's actions count, the good and the bad. And then souled Spike would still be the one who stalked, abused and attempted to rape her. If the soul counts then so does everything else.
If you don't fall into that camp then I can't see how you could support Spuffy in S7. He is literally a new person, one that Buffy has never met and doesn't know anything about. The demon is still part of the new person but that's not supposed to be the one in charge, it's supposed to be the soul (aka William). And 'William' and Buffy have never met prior to S7.
Mrs Gordo
Pfft you seem to forget that we are supposed to give Spike all the credit for "changing" without a soul but none of the blame for his actions without a soul.
DayDreamer27
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Adding to this. It's a HUGE pet-peeve that one of the first arguments against Bangel is "That was HS puppy love. and Spuffy was real"
Ok. So I guess it's HS puppy love when their relationship had struggles such as losing each other, almost dying for each other. Buffy nursing Angel back to health when he returned from Hell. Talking about her future with him. Her having to talk him down from killing himself. etc.
Most HS puppy loves don't involve half the things they had to get through. As individuals or a couple. Even in real life, many HS sweethearts have married. Meanwhile you have grown adults in their 0's who bounce from relationship to relationship and don't know anymore of what they want than some High School kids.
Using a classic example. Sitcoms.Cliff & Claire were a couple since HS. They were married throughout the show with 5 kids. But I guess because it started in HS, their relationship doesn't count? After all, they couldn't possibly have loved each other in HSS?
Another Roseanne x Dan Connor. Dan was the first & only man Roseanne was ever with. She lost her virginity to him on their second date. When he had his heart-attack, she's very vulnerable and says the heartbreaking words that she's worried to lose than man she'd been with since she was 15. I guess their relationship isn't true. Again teens can't know what they want & love someone/
My own parents. are an example. My mother has known my father all her life & has been with him since she was a teen in the 80's. They got ,married not long after she turned 18. Not to say their marriage hasn't had it's share of drama. lol But that's every relationship. However, note that I said DRAMA, not ABUSE & TOXICITY. There's a difference between those things.
Bangel was the former. Yes the relationship started when Buffy was young, but that doesn't mean they weren't experiencing the real thing. Buffy was 21 in season 7, and she still refers to her feelings for Angel as love. We don't have 21 year old Buffy saying anything like "Oh well Angel was only a crush" or I thought I loved him but I was too young to know better." No. Buffy after having more life & relationship experience,losing her mother, trying to raise a child & support a house, still says she loved Angel more than she will anything.
And if we're gonna pick on age, then even season 7 Buffy doesn't know any better. She outright says she's cookie dough that hasn't fully baked. She says the last episode she's not finished growing yet. And that includes her relationship with Spike. He got cookie dough as well, by Buffy'sown words. Plus 21 is still college aged. How many college students have fully matured, when they're not out drinking, partying, and going through the phase of doing all their stupid stuff.
Bringing the comics into it it, Buffy is probably in her mid-late twenties in those and possibly 30 at the end. She STILL retains feelings for Angel. She had a fantasy about being chained naked to HIM and Spike. She was slightly jealous when Dawn was hugging him & talking about her crush. Puppy HS crush wouldn't be lasting until someone is damn near 30. lol
And, Buffy & Spike could be together whenever they wanted with NO limits. And the mutually chose to split up because they don't work without crisis. THAT seems more like teen love. Without the passion & danger, there's not much left. And Buffy even said that in season 6. Spike says great love is wild, passionate, and dangerous. It burns & consumes. Then Buffy tells him it burns & consumes until nothing is left and that love isn't lasting. And we see it in season 12 when they decided to split due to things being too peaceful.
Meanwhile Buffy & Angel never made the choice to not be together. They just accepted that it was already decided that they couldn't be. They tried repeatedly being together only for something to stand in the way, and when they were together, there were tons of limits. Like sex. How many people going through just puppy love are gonna try to make a relationship work that they can't have sex in? Most horny teens won't be down for that. it takes love to entertain the thought of trying to be together without every getting to have sex Even adults don't want sexless relationships & won't stay in them. They'll either separate, agree for the able partner to have other lovers, or cheat.
I think the narrative needs to be dropped that Bangel was all about puppy-love & non-serious HS romance. Nowhere was their relationship treated as such in canon.
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GraceK
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AshSlays
WOW, Sarcasm, that's original!
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Whilst I like Spike more than Angel a considerable bit (still love Angel though!), I feel like Bangel is the better ship just because they had a much smoother relationship (apart from the whole Angelus and Buffy killing him thing)
Might just be the Sprusilla love in me, the two had such amazing chemistry!
Might just be the Sprusilla love in me, the two had such amazing chemistry!
TriBel
Scooby
This seems to be selective recall - I'm not sure bold is warranted. 😉 I could quote a number of scenes from 7/8/9 that are "open to interpretation" (in fact, I'd argue S7 is about "interpretation" in the widest sense - hence the scenes between Giles and Chao-Ahn) but this (from 10) seems to run counter to your argument.
"Maybe it was just there to placate the Spuffy fans and get them to keep buying issues. Maybe".
Yeah - maybe. 😉 I'll admit to buying all the BtVS and Angel Library Editions from Tales of the Slayer through to S10 and the TPBs (inc. IDW) because of my interest in Spike and his relationship with Buffy but, in mitigation, I had professional motives. My post-grad work was in love, desire and speculative metafictions. It's been the basis of my career for more than 20 years and I'd planned a series of journal articles. I'm less interested in shipping Spuffy then trying to understand why Whedon seems to have invested in them. I'm satisfied with my conclusions.
As for the end of S12 - depends on how you read it. Personally, I don't think it's as optimistic as it seems (there's a reason the last frame has Giles remove his glasses. In verse, it's a sure sign there's something he doesn't want to see. Equally, because of literary-historical imaginings of America, I'm suspicious of scenes that end happily in a suburban garden). IMO, the implication of Angel staying "for a while" and Spike being around "forever" is telling.
Yeah - I'll give you that as a description of Spike and Buffy's relationship, though I think it's reciprocal. I also think it's the impetus for the majority of 'verse relationships, including Dru/Angel, Buffy/Angel; Angel/Frillyria and Dander. It's less symmetrical in some than others. Some are dyadic (with a shadowy third member), some are obviously triadic. It seems to me that Illyria represents everything Angel desires. In relation to Twilight, I don't think it's coincidence that the last frame of A11 has Fred/Illyria/Angel walking home as dawn starts to break. Whatever drove him as Twilight, seems to have been resolved IN Twilight. I think it's a nice touch that rubber-stamps the relationship.
Useful quote from Whedon:
"Nobody ever wants to admit that there are two sides to anything. They either want to be right or – no, they just want to be right. Sorry, I don't know of that many people that want to be wrong. But the truth almost always lies somewhere in the middle".
Joss Whedon on Comic Books, Abusing Language and the Joys of Genre
IMO, Spike (Spuffy), is that extended, impossible middle and, for that reason, will always be characterized by vacillation and ambiguity, hence always dynamic. If it was otherwise, it would align with "truth/not truth" - both of which have a tendency to implode.
AshSlays
WOW, Sarcasm, that's original!
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So last night I made a post, a few posts above and you can easily see it, saying that I shipped Bangel. I'm going to have to negate/rephrase that entire post (wow self, good job) after watching an episode last night (doesn't have anything to do with either ship, just jolted me back). I do ship Bangel, but I don't ship it over Spuffy either. I ship both ships, at different times in Buffy's life. In the beginning of the show and her slayer extravaganza, Angel really was the one she needed. But times, circumstances, and people all change rapidly. I feel like by the time Spike came in as a possible love interest, she really needed him. So in a way, I ship both Bangel and Spuffy. If you still have questions, maybe I can explain it better (just woke up lol).
thetopher
Member of the Church Of Faith
Not particularly. I tend to judge Buffy's relationships and their value partly on how they end. I do this with Briley, Bangel and Spuffy. Since the writers didn't deem it necessary to witness the break-up of a relationship that had been on-going for several seasons then I find it hard to ascribe any real value to it.
In the end what did Buffy learn about herself in terms of her relationship with Spike between Seasons 8 and 12? Not much really, what she tells Willow is similar to realizations he's had earlier.
So in conclusion her feelings for Spike never really developed either. Perhaps they couldn't given that he's a vampire and vampires are- to a degree- naturally static.
Perhaps this would've happened if Buffy and Angel had gotten together in the comics- a static retread of some of their past- but the writers didn't give us that beyond the disaster that was Twilight so its hard to judge it the same.
I was really only responding to the other posters assertion that the Angel crossovers were nothing but Bangel fan service, which of course is ridiculous wouldn't you agree?
I'm sure the comic writers had other stories to tell beyond the Spuffy stuff, I just never saw and interesting drama develop from those Spuffy stories.
Well yeah, Angel has learned to have a life outside of Buffy and move on from her. Spike never succeeded in doing that.
Spike really has nowhere else to go, no other stories tell other than Buffy-centric ones. At least, that's the impression we're left with by the end of the comics run.
It's worth noting that Buffy has mentioned several times (specifically to Angel) of seeing her future with Angel, not with Spike. 'Bad Eggs, 'Forever', 'Chosen', its always Angel. Spike might be the 'right now' guy but Angel, it seems to Buffy, is with her in the end.
Not that I like that idea much at all, but I guess its...less bad? I'm not a big 'Buffy/vampire' shipper really.
Of course all fiction ships are wish-fulfillment to some extent, but to balance them and make them interesting the relationship must face 'peril' to the pair's romantic aspirations. That's what gets us all invested. Will they get together? How will they stay together?
The problem is that in the comics the 'peril' to Spuffy is mostly non-existent, the obstacle comes almost entirely from Buffy's own mixed/developing feelings for Spike. This is what keeps things ticking along from late Season 8 right through to the end of S11. Then Buffy says 'I love you' and the next time we see them they're broken up.
Some romance.
Because there was never any balance. Spike's feelings always remained unwavering because that fits his character- I guess- and so the only obstacle to Spuffy became Buffy. Can Buffy trust Spike, her 'dark place'? Why won't Buffy love Spike? Will she or won't she say the 'L' word?
Basically Spike just has to 'hang around' until Buffy realizes her 'true feelings'. This is not particularly interesting (for me) and certainly isn't very equal. With Spuffy Spike is always the supplicant, the pursuer, the pining romantic. It all felt like a retread of the show.
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