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Would you have forgiven Wesley?

crazysoulless

Scooby
Joined
Oct 11, 2009
Messages
1,099
Location
Las Vegas, US
But you have to remember he was thinking like a Watcher . Which means he knows best & he doesn't have to tell anyone .
things Giles kept from Buffy:

There's a prophecy in a centuries old book that always comes true that says you're going to be murdered tonight by the demon you've been having nightmares about hurting you for the last several months.

Buffy: Were you even going to tell me?
Giles: I was hoping there's a way around it.

There's this ritual the Watchers Council has been doing for centuries. If a Slayer turns 18 her Watcher puts her through a test called the Cruciumentum and repeatedly poisons her, lets her think she has the flu, lets her go on patrol knowing any moment she's gonna be blindsided by losing all her superpowers, and then locks her in alone with a demon and if she manages to kill it instead of being killed she passes the test. Happy 18th birthday, Buffy.

Buffy: You bastard! All this time you saw what it was doing to me, all this time and you didn't say a word.
Giles: Believe me, Buffy, I wanted to tell you.

There's this ancient prophecy that I've known about since before I met you and have books on and believe is about you and one of your vampire lovers. Instead of telling you about it I'm going to ostracise you, second guess your decisions, plot behind your back, try to keep you away from souled vampires, check out all rogue Slayers just in case, and travel Europe looking for a totem that can be used to murder you if you ascend like the Twilight prophecy informs.
 

AlphaFoxtrot

Scooby
Joined
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Messages
1,976
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39
I recall being told somewhere that Champions fight for the world as it should be, and refuse to accept it as it is. I also recall learning that one doesn't deserve forgiveness, it was an act of compassion. I can't recall who said that, though. Maybe it was "Twilight."
 

Ethan Reigns

Scooby
Joined
Oct 14, 2012
Messages
7,401
Location
Canada
Sineya
I recall being told somewhere that Champions fight for the world as it should be, and refuse to accept it as it is. I also recall learning that one doesn't deserve forgiveness, it was an act of compassion. I can't recall who said that, though. Maybe it was "Twilight."
That was Giles in "I Only Have Eyes for You". He was explaining why Buffy took the part of the killer and Angelus took the part of the teacher.
 

SES SA

Potential
Joined
May 24, 2018
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205
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30
I definitely don't have it in me to kill anyone. But that is me talking. Not an immortal vampire who has been a law unto himself and has killed humans who attempt to harm children in the past.

I was disappointed that Wesley copped as much of attitude as he did after everything went down. He never even apologised and got all sassy like he was the one let down out of nowhere. Angel really is all about redemption because there is no way I could forgive Wesley without so much as a tearful apology.
 

LilahFan

Townie
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Mar 14, 2018
Messages
47
Age
35
I wouldn't forgive him right away because for one it's my or whoever else in the situation's child we're talking about here. So to just forgive him would be ridiculous.

Not to mention Wesley likely never becomes the more serious character that improved him so much as time went by, and Lilahs character probably suffers to because that relationship never happens.
 

AnthonyCordova

modulating between criticism and reconstruction
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Denver, Colorado
Sineya
Me personally, I probably would have initially reacted the way Angel had (due to the pressure and emotions of the moment), but with a few days or a week's worth of time to consider things more coolly and objectively, I would have forgiven him. I certainly wouldn't have left things as indefinitely unresolved as Angel did. I agree also with posters above that Wes really went about badly with his plan. There was a kind of internal logic to Wes' method, but like others have said, I really would have sought out consultation with someone else in the group; with the stakes as high as they were, I think you have to assume that you need your plan and logic vetted at least by one other person. Under pressure, the decisions we make are often flawed, and it sometimes takes another person to spot the holes.

And I also feel about forgiveness similar to Giles (i.e. forgiveness is an act of compassion, it's done because they need it, etc.). Especially for someone like Wes who was such a close and trustworthy friend in the past. And I think under the circumstances Angel's experience with Holtz really should have taught him something about forgiveness, because Holtz became an inhuman monster precisely because he refused to give Angel forgiveness under any circumstances. So yes, I do think Angel owed that to Wes at some point. It's inhuman not to, and not ever doing so would illustrate that Angel learned absolutely nothing from his experience with Holtz.
 

RomanticSoul

Frell Me
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Germany
And I also feel about forgiveness similar to Giles (i.e. forgiveness is an act of compassion, it's done because they need it, etc.). Especially for someone like Wes who was such a close and trustworthy friend in the past. And I think under the circumstances Angel's experience with Holtz really should have taught him something about forgiveness, because Holtz became an inhuman monster precisely because he refused to give Angel forgiveness under any circumstances. So yes, I do think Angel owed that to Wes at some point. It's inhuman not to, and not ever doing so would illustrate that Angel learned absolutely nothing from his experience with Holtz.
Except forgiveness can only be given if there is something that a person needs forgiveness for. Wesley never admitted he was wrong. He never apologized. According to him, the only victim in this whole mess was him. So from Wesley's POV, what he did was right. So what does he need forgiveness for? There would be no point to hand out any forgiveness to Wesley since according to him he did nothing that needs forgiveness.
 

Mylie

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33
Except forgiveness can only be given if there is something that a person needs forgiveness for. Wesley never admitted he was wrong. He never apologized. According to him, the only victim in this whole mess was him. So from Wesley's POV, what he did was right. So what does he need forgiveness for? There would be no point to hand out any forgiveness to Wesley since according to him he did nothing that needs forgiveness.
Agreed.

I also think it's very telling that Angel dreams that Wesley apologizes to him in Awakening (though it's for something else) and he calls him out on never apologizing to him for taking Connor. I think Angel was open to forgive Wesley. It's just that Wesley never really apologized.
 

spikenbuffy

"Hi honey, I'm home"
Staff member
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I love Wesley, but it's the truth that he didn't apologize and he should have, Angel was more open, even after Lilah 's death, he says to wesley that he's sorry for him.
 

Cangel1987

♥ Cangel ♥ Spuffy ♥
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248
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I am not sure, if I would have been able to forgive him. Wesley thought he would do the right thing for Connor. I also think it would have been much better, if he also would have tell it to Angel, Fred, Gunn and Lorne. Or even call Cordelia over the phone in her vacation. Instead of making a decision - alone. I think it was the worst thing he could make. After spending a few nights over the books and decide it for himself. Wesley kidnapped Connor the child of one of his friends. Friends who are like family for him. The only child Angel ever will have. No, I don't think I could ever forgive Wesley for it.
 

MarlieTheSlayer

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488
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Sunnydale
Black Thorn
I think he is able to forgive Wesley, but he would never trust him again. Not that Angel truly trusted Wesley in the first place.
 

NeddaSai

Potential
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Jun 22, 2011
Messages
230
I'll echo most people here and say personally yes, but as Angel? No.

Wesley didn't want to believe it, he kept doubting and doubting the prophecy until he just couldn't ignore the signs anymore.. then acted out of panic! I blame him for not telling anyone but that is something that can be forgiven.

Angel would've been completely justified if he never talked to or forgave Wesley ever again after that.. the rest of the gang however are another matter!
 

NeonSlayer

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Jul 26, 2018
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457
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Angel has the memories of raping, torturing, & murdering thousands of innocent people. That includes the memory of defiling and eating children. The central theme of AtS is redemption. Angel has been living with guilt for hundreds of years. He made helping the hopeless (which consists of a lot of people who make bad decisions) his life mission. He told Marcus what he wants most is forgiveness. He believed in the Shanshu because he needed divine forgiveness. If he didn't forgive Wesley he'd be a huge hypocrite.

In Sanctuary Angel expects Wesley to forgive Faith an hour after she tried to torture him to death with fists & knives & fire. He told Buffy "you have no idea what she's feeling" even though that year Faith raped her & nearly got her executed & tried to stab her mom to death. Angel spent the next day hugging Faith while she chilled at his place eating donuts & popcorn watching tv. He was fiercely protective of her no matter how many victims of hers he offended.

I think Wesley's later actions should count as an apology if so many count Faith choosing to stay in jail for 3 years as a good enough apology. Wesley spent three months searching for Angel, was the one who rescued him from his underwater torture, let him feed on him, and never again did anything that could constitute a betrayal. He dies on the suicide mission Angel planned, loyal to the end. People think Faith helping Angel in s4 wiped the slate clean between them so why isn't it the same for Wesley?
 
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